The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Tequila Cowboy wrote: I'm not sure how anyone could have ever thought this guy would change even with the gravity of the position he now holds.
The fact is that people did believe him and despite all evidence to the contrary, still do. One still hears it all the time: What a great businessman, he's gonna drain the swamp (despite the 5 Goldman guys, the Senators and all around rich folk in the Cabinet), etc. They really thought he'd be different. By "he's president now" I didn't mean that he'll hold himself to a different standard or rise to meet the occasion; rather that a lot more people believe the blustering of a president than of a real estate huckster and it's a lot more public and noticeable when you fail. And I suspect that the wrath of a blue collar converted believer who's gonna lose her health insurance (or alternatively, whose absolute unreasoning hatred of Obamacare is going to go unrequited and disappear from the public agenda w/ barely a whimper) is going to be a lot greater than the wrath of a banker losing even a billion dollars of somebody else's money.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Zip City wrote:It's almost like the "Art of the Deal" guy doesn't actually know how to negotiate when he can't bully people around. WEIRD
Preaching to the choir, I know, but the fact that he really isn't a good negotiator somehow escaped a lot of people's notice. So they really expected him to have Congress's number. The fact that it was never true isn't going to make the harsh reality of failure and disillusionment any easier to take.

And of course, as a truly bad negotiator, Trump is burning bridges as he goes, making the next deal even harder to close. An ugly cycle could very easily turn into a vortex.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tequila Cowboy wrote: I'm not sure how anyone could have ever thought this guy would change even with the gravity of the position he now holds.
The fact is that people did believe him and despite all evidence to the contrary, still do. One still hears it all the time: What a great businessman, he's gonna drain the swamp (despite the 5 Goldman guys, the Senators and all around rich folk in the Cabinet), etc. They really thought he'd be different. By "he's president now" I didn't mean that he'll hold himself to a different standard or rise to meet the occasion; rather that a lot more people believe the blustering of a president than of a real estate huckster and it's a lot more public and noticeable when you fail. And I suspect that the wrath of a blue collar converted believer who's gonna lose her health insurance (or alternatively, whose absolute unreasoning hatred of Obamacare is going to go unrequited and disappear from the public agenda w/ barely a whimper) is going to be a lot greater than the wrath of a banker losing even a billion dollars of somebody else's money.
I watched a piece on CNN the other day where they interviewed people who literally have had their lives saved by the ACA, coincidentally this piece was done at one of the Federally Qualified Health Clinics that Beth oversees, and these people were still holding out hope that Trump would save them. One man had an oxygen mask on and said that if his benefits were cut, which he will be one of the first to be cut in 2018, that he will die but he is convinced that Donald Trump cares about him and people like him and despite the current bill will come through for him. The cognitive dissonance literally pains me.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

So they don't have the votes. Now what? Bean, you talk about political capital but neither Trump or Ryan appear to have enough to get their signature legislation passed. So what they do kill the vote and work on new legislation or let it fail and try to make an example out of the no votes? The former is conventional political wisdom, the latter sounds like Trump.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:So they don't have the votes. Now what? Bean, you talk about political capital but neither Trump or Ryan appear to have enough to get their signature legislation passed. So what they do kill the vote and work on new legislation or let it fail and try to make an example out of the no votes? The former is conventional political wisdom, the latter sounds like Trump.
What's next? I think that is easy. Trump throws Ryan to the wolves, blames Congress and hits the road for a set of self-aggrandizing rallies. He will shift focus to another issue. My guess is we are going to be hearing a lot more about THE WALL. and I'm not talking about Pink Floyd
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Image

So you guys wouldn't pass my bill huh? I'm gonna get ya now!
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »



please, please Mr. President, It's too much winning! We can't take it anymore!
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Never forget...until you do.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

They pulled the bill after they realized it was going to fail by 40 votes.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:They pulled the bill after they realized it was going to fail by 40 votes.

Ding, Dong, the bill is dead. The Art of No Deal. The Winner is Losing.

He is going to flip his shit when the Dems start the Filibuster.


Trumpcare, Filibuster, Russia.....The Resistance is working. LOVE EACH OTHER MOTHERFUCKERS!

I'm going to put on my Dance Band T-Shirt to celebrate.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

From the NYT
Mr. Trump, in a telephone interview moments after the bill was pulled, blamed Democrats and predicted that they would seek a deal within a year after, he asserted, “Obamacare explodes” because of higher premiums. The president said he did not fault Mr. Ryan and said that he was pleased to move past his first legislative fight. He maintained that he was merely going along with the House bill.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/24/us/p ... pe=article
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:From the NYT
Mr. Trump, in a telephone interview moments after the bill was pulled, blamed Democrats and predicted that they would seek a deal within a year after, he asserted, “Obamacare explodes” because of higher premiums. The president said he did not fault Mr. Ryan and said that he was pleased to move past his first legislative fight. He maintained that he was merely going along with the House bill.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/24/us/p ... pe=article
No surprise there but seriously, does he really expect anyone to believe that this is the fault of the Democrats??? It's crazy. There is no logical argument that gets you there. Not that it matters.

But here it is. An historic opportunity: Obamacare needs work. Where are the 2 people, 1 from each party who can put a deal together? I don't know whether they exist, but that's what should happen because the ACA does need work and in doing that work there ought to be something for enough people to create a majority. And now the Republicans have cover: "Repeal didn't work so let's make the best of what we've got." That's not a Freedom Caucus motto, but despite their outsized power, they're not a whole lot of people and the only reason they have that power is because the Republicans have written off working w/ Dems. If Ryan really wants to stick it to the caucus, this is what he would do. But my guess is that he's done w/ healthcare for a while and somebody else will have to pick the ball up if anything is to happen.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:From the NYT
Mr. Trump, in a telephone interview moments after the bill was pulled, blamed Democrats and predicted that they would seek a deal within a year after, he asserted, “Obamacare explodes” because of higher premiums. The president said he did not fault Mr. Ryan and said that he was pleased to move past his first legislative fight. He maintained that he was merely going along with the House bill.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/24/us/p ... pe=article
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by lotusamerica »

I think universal healthcare is inevitable. We might jack around 20 years getting there but there is no other conceivable endpoint that I can see. There is nothing else to turn back healthcare costs, the population is getting older and sicker, Alzheimers is spiraling out of control and will eat up the federal budget within 20 years if costs aren't contained by a universal system (barring a true breakthrough) and workplace insurance systems are on the brink (the workplace as we knew it is disappearing and the employers and insurance companies are colluding to eliminate eligibility/coverage/costs).

In the meantime though, I wouldn't count today as a whole lot more than an embarrassment. They're going to be back with a harsher version, which won't necessarily pass both houses either but will give cover for the insurance companies gutting core coverage for sick, poor, elderly etc. Democrats aren't likely to get much help from the midterms - there might be a mild correction but no chance of getting the house and a longggg shot at best for the Senate. What's going to happen instead is that the Republican party will continue to move to the right, as the far right conservatives are untouchable and whatever passes for moderate R's are going to get scapegoated and drummed out in the backlash to the Republican failures that are only just beginning. Democrat's next chance for power is President in 2020, and it's even likely going to take a small revolution within the Democratic party to pull that off.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:Trump blamed Democrats
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Image
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

lotusamerica wrote:I think universal healthcare is inevitable. We might jack around 20 years getting there but there is no other conceivable endpoint that I can see. There is nothing else to turn back healthcare costs, the population is getting older and sicker, Alzheimers is spiraling out of control and will eat up the federal budget within 20 years if costs aren't contained by a universal system (barring a true breakthrough) and workplace insurance systems are on the brink (the workplace as we knew it is disappearing and the employers and insurance companies are colluding to eliminate eligibility/coverage/costs).

In the meantime though, I wouldn't count today as a whole lot more than an embarrassment. They're going to be back with a harsher version, which won't necessarily pass both houses either but will give cover for the insurance companies gutting core coverage for sick, poor, elderly etc. Democrats aren't likely to get much help from the midterms - there might be a mild correction but no chance of getting the house and a longggg shot at best for the Senate. What's going to happen instead is that the Republican party will continue to move to the right, as the far right conservatives are untouchable and whatever passes for moderate R's are going to get scapegoated and drummed out in the backlash to the Republican failures that are only just beginning. Democrat's next chance for power is President in 2020, and it's even likely going to take a small revolution within the Democratic party to pull that off.
I totally disagree with you on the Democrats chances of taking the House. The average seats a sitting President's party loses in midterm elections is 30 and more when the President's approval ratings are under 50%. The Democrats need to flip 28. It's not inevitable by any stretch but the House is very winnable. Remember the GOP gained 63 seats in 2010. The Senate is winnable but a lot less so as the map favors Republicans.

Also, while they might come up with a new plan eventually, it's unlikely to happen before the midterms. Healthcare is one of the third rails in American politics and really can only be worked on in earnest in a President's first 100 days. At this point they have to move on or risk getting none of their agenda passed. By the time that legislation passes or fails it will be summer recess, then fall reconciliation and then Christmas. 2018 is all about midterms and preserving the GOP majority. If they hold Congress you might see another bill in 2019. Before that it's very unlikely. As Paul Ryan said yesterday "Obamacare is the law of the land for the foreseeable future".
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Swamp »

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:Image
Perfect wwcd. For some reason everytime my granddaughter hears his name on the tv she says "I love donald trump"
I don't know why unless maybe my mom has taught her that.
Betsy is scared shitless of that game, she despises it. Just saying the name and she looks pissed.
I think this pic will do the trick :D
REALLY??

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

My favorite cowboy posted this on facebook:

“Folks, yesterday was cause for optimism but not gloating. It likely ensures the survival of the ACA for two more years but there's work to be done. The ACA is not the end game and the next step is likely a public option, even if single payer is the ultimate goal, if we hope to expand healthcare. The GOP can't logistically offer another plan now or they risk their entire agenda. There's a reason why a President's agenda has to be carried out in 100 days. After that comes summer recess, fall reconciliation and then Christmas. Then comes 2018 and no one in their right minds offers up healthcare legislation in a midterm election year. Even Paul Ryan admitted yesterday that the ACA "is the law of the land for the foreseeable future ". Again though this was a won battle not the end of the war.
Don't let anybody tell you that the GOP House majority is not vulnerable in 2018. It's very vulnerable. The average loss of seats in the House of the party of a sitting President is 30 and that number is higher when the President's approval ratings are below 50%. The Democrats need to flip 28. The GOP gained 63 seats in 2010. It's a winnable fight but it's going to take hard work and great candidates. Pay attention to vulnerable seats which currently appears to be 47 and volunteer and donate as you can. If the GOP retains the House (they're almost certain to hold the Senate) expect a new, worse healthcare bill in 2019.”

I have my doubts about the usefulness of FB as a medium for discussion so I figured I’d post my response here while I decide whether to post it there.

Tryancare going down in flames was a big win for the Democrats, but let’s face it, they didn’t have to do much besides stand back and let the Republican Congress and the President take turns shooting each other in the feet and ultimately the knees. The Democrats did highlight the worst of the bill, stood firmly against it and presumably helped organize some of the “grass roots” response, but really, the Republicans did more to lose it than the Dems did to win it. So where to from here?

For now, the Dems are staking their turf as “we’re not them.” Given the “them,” that has a certain appeal but it’s pretty damn limited and not exactly inspiring. As I’ve said on innumerable occasions, it would be nice if the Democrats had a vision, a plan, and credible leaders to communicate and execute both. Right now that seems to be a pipe dream but it seems that it would not be too much to ask the Democrats to do the following:

1. Come up w/ a plan to make Obamacare better. As far as I understand it, changes are needed to firm up the exchanges to make sure there are adequate offerings in all states; to lower premiums and deductible; and to get more healthy people to sign up. While a single payer plan is the obvious answer and, as lotus says, the inevitable conclusion, we’re not there yet. Any proposal would have to at least pay lip service to “market based solutions” but these problems don’t seem insoluble. And I suspect that the fixes might sound at least a little bit Republican. I don’t claim expertise in the field but it seems obvious that getting more healthy sign-ups needs some combination of better sticks, some new carrots and maybe some health disaster horror stories “pour encourager les autres.” For carrots how about things like free health club memberships, vouchers for X hours of daycare, an extra vacation day –there seems to be room to be clever. For sticks, a higher penalty seems the obvious solution though admittedly anathema to Republicans. Another possibility is to make it harder to sign up later (presumably when you perceive a need for insurance) if you've passed on it earlier. On the other issues I suspect that a combination of some free market elements combined with better government support for those not likely to be reached by the free market reforms seems possible. Get out those thinking caps!
Having come up w/ a plan, hopefully with input from conservative elements, sell it to the PRESIDENT first. His interests and incentives are not the same as the Republican Party’s and if the plan is solid he’d be an easier first sell. If he wanted to, even let him introduce it as his plan. A combination of sensible fixes, some designed to appeal to at least traditional Republicanism, and presidential support ought to make finding 40 or so Republican votes in the House possible.

2. How about taking tax reform away from the Republicans? There’s no inherent reason that this should be a Republican calling card and by its very nature its appeal cuts through almost all demographic and class lines (if it’s done right anyway; if defined as “tax cuts for the rich” it’s something else). Nobody can doubt that the internal revenue code needs to be substantially overhauled and simplified. Democrats can do that. Nobody can doubt that there are plenty of absurd loopholes that ought to be closed and that doing so would appeal to everyone but the direct beneficiaries of those loopholes. Even the “death tax” can be turned around into a sensible policy that raises considerable revenue while affecting almost nobody (and who could be against that?). Obviously it would have to be, ummmm, re-branded, lol.

3. It would probably be a mistake to get too far into foreign policy as part of a broad appeal to voters, but it seems like some things could be done: Like trying to get on the right page about terrorism being a real threat, but not the only one. For example, admitting that there are “radical Islamic terrorists” but using that as a springboard to argue that merely to distinguish them with that label inherently means that there are other kinds of terrorists and we need to address the problem broadly not as a war on Muslims. Some call to America’s historical role as a place of refuge and supporter of those suffering misfortune on a large scale would not be a terrible thing either, though I acknowledge that there are difficulties in walking the right line on this.

But anyway, even if the Democrats could put together something coherent and sexy on the first two items, they could really take advantage of the present Republican disarray and turn a mushy, fuzzy brand into a shiny, definable brand with broad appeal and compelling slogans/catch phrases. I would support that party. Hell, I’d probably even contribute to that party.

And speaking of donations, the Dems (and the Republicans too for that matter) would probably do themselves a world of good by pledging not to use a single donation as the basis for unending and overwrought appeals that do nothing but convince the donor that he or she made a mistake by donating in the first place.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:

please, please Mr. President, It's too much winning! We can't take it anymore!
Image
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Trump supporter thought president would only deport ‘bad hombres.’ Instead, her husband is being deported.

lots of stories like this one going around. The disconnect is mind-boggling
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

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And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Move Fast and Break Things: 106 Years of Disruptive Innovation at the Triangle Shirtwaist Company
In fact, Harris and Blanck burned down the entire concept of “bosses” and “employees,” preferring to think of Triangle as a family, building team spirit at the company’s beloved “lock-ins” and regular bonfires.
Image

"Different places have different safety rules, and that’s ok."
The Triangle story hasn’t been all warm employee relations and scorching hot returns on investment, however. When Triangle moved into a hip, open-plan workplace in the Asch Building, government regulators initially balked at the lack of stairways. The Triangle Shirtwaist story could have ended there, but the company rose from the ashes like a phoenix. Rather than wander the confusing maze of government bureaucracies looking for an exit, destroying their building’s flow of people and ideas with an additional staircase, or, God forbid, breaking up their workday with fire drills, they installed a light, flexible fire escape—perfect for Triangle’s light, flexible business model. It was a searing rebuke to the outdated, innovation-smothering regulatory state, paving the way for modern heroes like Uber, a company that, as Matthew Yglesias wrote for Slate in 2011, “exposes the idiocy of American cities’ cab regulations.” Imagine the consumer-friendly world we could live in if every industry faced that kind of purifying flame!
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

beantownbubba wrote:My favorite cowboy posted this on facebook:

“Folks, yesterday was cause for optimism but not gloating. It likely ensures the survival of the ACA for two more years but there's work to be done. The ACA is not the end game and the next step is likely a public option, even if single payer is the ultimate goal, if we hope to expand healthcare. The GOP can't logistically offer another plan now or they risk their entire agenda. There's a reason why a President's agenda has to be carried out in 100 days. After that comes summer recess, fall reconciliation and then Christmas. Then comes 2018 and no one in their right minds offers up healthcare legislation in a midterm election year. Even Paul Ryan admitted yesterday that the ACA "is the law of the land for the foreseeable future ". Again though this was a won battle not the end of the war.
Don't let anybody tell you that the GOP House majority is not vulnerable in 2018. It's very vulnerable. The average loss of seats in the House of the party of a sitting President is 30 and that number is higher when the President's approval ratings are below 50%. The Democrats need to flip 28. The GOP gained 63 seats in 2010. It's a winnable fight but it's going to take hard work and great candidates. Pay attention to vulnerable seats which currently appears to be 47 and volunteer and donate as you can. If the GOP retains the House (they're almost certain to hold the Senate) expect a new, worse healthcare bill in 2019.”

I have my doubts about the usefulness of FB as a medium for discussion so I figured I’d post my response here while I decide whether to post it there.

Tryancare going down in flames was a big win for the Democrats, but let’s face it, they didn’t have to do much besides stand back and let the Republican Congress and the President take turns shooting each other in the feet and ultimately the knees. The Democrats did highlight the worst of the bill, stood firmly against it and presumably helped organize some of the “grass roots” response, but really, the Republicans did more to lose it than the Dems did to win it. So where to from here?

For now, the Dems are staking their turf as “we’re not them.” Given the “them,” that has a certain appeal but it’s pretty damn limited and not exactly inspiring. As I’ve said on innumerable occasions, it would be nice if the Democrats had a vision, a plan, and credible leaders to communicate and execute both. Right now that seems to be a pipe dream but it seems that it would not be too much to ask the Democrats to do the following:

1. Come up w/ a plan to make Obamacare better. As far as I understand it, changes are needed to firm up the exchanges to make sure there are adequate offerings in all states; to lower premiums and deductible; and to get more healthy people to sign up. While a single payer plan is the obvious answer and, as lotus says, the inevitable conclusion, we’re not there yet. Any proposal would have to at least pay lip service to “market based solutions” but these problems don’t seem insoluble. And I suspect that the fixes might sound at least a little bit Republican. I don’t claim expertise in the field but it seems obvious that getting more healthy sign-ups needs some combination of better sticks, some new carrots and maybe some health disaster horror stories “pour encourager les autres.” For carrots how about things like free health club memberships, vouchers for X hours of daycare, an extra vacation day –there seems to be room to be clever. For sticks, a higher penalty seems the obvious solution though admittedly anathema to Republicans. Another possibility is to make it harder to sign up later (presumably when you perceive a need for insurance) if you've passed on it earlier. On the other issues I suspect that a combination of some free market elements combined with better government support for those not likely to be reached by the free market reforms seems possible. Get out those thinking caps!
Having come up w/ a plan, hopefully with input from conservative elements, sell it to the PRESIDENT first. His interests and incentives are not the same as the Republican Party’s and if the plan is solid he’d be an easier first sell. If he wanted to, even let him introduce it as his plan. A combination of sensible fixes, some designed to appeal to at least traditional Republicanism, and presidential support ought to make finding 40 or so Republican votes in the House possible.

2. How about taking tax reform away from the Republicans? There’s no inherent reason that this should be a Republican calling card and by its very nature its appeal cuts through almost all demographic and class lines (if it’s done right anyway; if defined as “tax cuts for the rich” it’s something else). Nobody can doubt that the internal revenue code needs to be substantially overhauled and simplified. Democrats can do that. Nobody can doubt that there are plenty of absurd loopholes that ought to be closed and that doing so would appeal to everyone but the direct beneficiaries of those loopholes. Even the “death tax” can be turned around into a sensible policy that raises considerable revenue while affecting almost nobody (and who could be against that?). Obviously it would have to be, ummmm, re-branded, lol.

3. It would probably be a mistake to get too far into foreign policy as part of a broad appeal to voters, but it seems like some things could be done: Like trying to get on the right page about terrorism being a real threat, but not the only one. For example, admitting that there are “radical Islamic terrorists” but using that as a springboard to argue that merely to distinguish them with that label inherently means that there are other kinds of terrorists and we need to address the problem broadly not as a war on Muslims. Some call to America’s historical role as a place of refuge and supporter of those suffering misfortune on a large scale would not be a terrible thing either, though I acknowledge that there are difficulties in walking the right line on this.

But anyway, even if the Democrats could put together something coherent and sexy on the first two items, they could really take advantage of the present Republican disarray and turn a mushy, fuzzy brand into a shiny, definable brand with broad appeal and compelling slogans/catch phrases. I would support that party. Hell, I’d probably even contribute to that party.

And speaking of donations, the Dems (and the Republicans too for that matter) would probably do themselves a world of good by pledging not to use a single donation as the basis for unending and overwrought appeals that do nothing but convince the donor that he or she made a mistake by donating in the first place.
Bean, thanks for the thoughtful response. There'a a lot of smart thinking there and I continue to admire your consistent approach about wanting bipartisan cooperation in getting things done, I wish I shared it. To me the Democrats do need a plan to fix the ACA and the exchanges but that plan has to be an incremental step towards single payer, which no Republican will ever support, and that has to include a public option which Bernie Sanders is calling for. They need to formalize their messaging in such a way to help them take the House in 2018, not with a pipe dream of actually passing something in GOP controlled Washington. Plus your idea of taking legislation to Trump is wrong on a couple of levels. First he actually said Dems would come to him on healthcare, they can't prove him right and hand him a victory and second Trump is nuclear and likely to be impeached at some point, let the GOP worry about that fallout and stay clear. Right now the success or failure of the ACA is on Trump. Keep it there and frame your messaging accordingly.
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4sooner
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Fwiw look up the name of Okla State Senator Ralph Shortey. He was Trumps Okla campaign chairman. I don't know how to post links on my phone so just look it up.
Hypocritical self righteous pos tea party dude. Okla government is full of fucks like this. And we are bound by state law to pay his pension.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Tequila Cowboy wrote:Bean, thanks for your idea of taking legislation to Trump is wrong on a couple of levels. First he actually said Dems would come to him on healthcare, they can't prove him right and hand him a victory and second Trump is nuclear and likely to be impeached at some point, let the GOP worry about that fallout and stay clear. Right now the success or failure of the ACA is on Trump. Keep it there and frame your messaging accordingly.
In the current environment you're absolutely right, TC. I was making some unstated assumptions in making that suggestion. It doesn't matter now (see below), but fwiw , in proposing that the Dems could take their revised plan to Trump, my most important assumption was that they'd be operating from a position of strength which means it would be clear where the plan came from and it would not be presented unless the Dems already knew/strongly suspected they'd have the votes, needing only the endorsement of the head of their party for some Republicans to "break cover."

But anyway, like I said, it didn't take even 24 hours for me to regret writing that. Did you see the part where Trump tweeted that people should watch Jeanine Pirro's show on Fox, who then preceded to rip Ryan while defending Trump? At the same time, Trump and his team were being publicly supportive of Ryan. There's nothing out of character or surprising about Trump doing this, but you know somehow it's the small thing that really captures one's attention and drives home or symbolizes a larger point? Reading about this was one of those moments for me -it literally gave me chills and my stomach turned. The sickness, stupidity, clumsiness and flat out unhinged-ness of this is scary as hell. No point in deconstructing it in detail, it's not like it's subtle, but it is just freaking me out. At the level of colloquial speech the man is flat out crazy and I suspect that a formal medical diagnosis would not come to a different conclusion.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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4sooner wrote:Fwiw look up the name of Okla State Senator Ralph Shortey. He was Trumps Okla campaign chairman. I don't know how to post links on my phone so just look it up.
Hypocritical self righteous pos tea party dude. Okla government is full of fucks like this. And we are bound by state law to pay his pension.
We've got you covered, sooner man. See the current page of the WTF thread.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Oh hell I missed that. Apologies.
I will say I kicked that motherfucker out of my shop when he was a sales rep for a company that manufactures parts we use. Always arrogantly professing his right wing judge mental views. I usually let that stuff go but Ralph was over the top unlikeable. I couldn't believe it when I heard he had become a state senator. Then after I thought about it it was no surprise at all.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

4sooner wrote:Fwiw look up the name of Okla State Senator Ralph Shortey. He was Trumps Okla campaign chairman. I don't know how to post links on my phone so just look it up.
Hypocritical self righteous pos tea party dude. Okla government is full of fucks like this. And we are bound by state law to pay his pension.
He made several appearances recently in the "WTF?" thread, along with George Faught :lol:
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Tequila Cowboy wrote:
lotusamerica wrote:I think universal healthcare is inevitable. We might jack around 20 years getting there but there is no other conceivable endpoint that I can see. There is nothing else to turn back healthcare costs, the population is getting older and sicker, Alzheimers is spiraling out of control and will eat up the federal budget within 20 years if costs aren't contained by a universal system (barring a true breakthrough) and workplace insurance systems are on the brink (the workplace as we knew it is disappearing and the employers and insurance companies are colluding to eliminate eligibility/coverage/costs).

In the meantime though, I wouldn't count today as a whole lot more than an embarrassment. They're going to be back with a harsher version, which won't necessarily pass both houses either but will give cover for the insurance companies gutting core coverage for sick, poor, elderly etc. Democrats aren't likely to get much help from the midterms - there might be a mild correction but no chance of getting the house and a longggg shot at best for the Senate. What's going to happen instead is that the Republican party will continue to move to the right, as the far right conservatives are untouchable and whatever passes for moderate R's are going to get scapegoated and drummed out in the backlash to the Republican failures that are only just beginning. Democrat's next chance for power is President in 2020, and it's even likely going to take a small revolution within the Democratic party to pull that off.
I totally disagree with you on the Democrats chances of taking the House. The average seats a sitting President's party loses in midterm elections is 30 and more when the President's approval ratings are under 50%. The Democrats need to flip 28. It's not inevitable by any stretch but the House is very winnable. Remember the GOP gained 63 seats in 2010. The Senate is winnable but a lot less so as the map favors Republicans.

Also, while they might come up with a new plan eventually, it's unlikely to happen before the midterms. Healthcare is one of the third rails in American politics and really can only be worked on in earnest in a President's first 100 days. At this point they have to move on or risk getting none of their agenda passed. By the time that legislation passes or fails it will be summer recess, then fall reconciliation and then Christmas. 2018 is all about midterms and preserving the GOP majority. If they hold Congress you might see another bill in 2019. Before that it's very unlikely. As Paul Ryan said yesterday "Obamacare is the law of the land for the foreseeable future".
We'll see soon enough about healthcare. It does seem like one pathway is for Trump to try to undermine it in the markets and create a more favorable environment for another push to me. But I doubt dealmaking is done even now behind the scenes. It may not be another big package to try to repeal, but hobbling and dismantling, etc bit by bit.

I hope you're right about the chances of retaking the house, TC, and it's certainly worth working hard for. Past voting behavior is an important predictor but not fate by any chance. Gerrymandering has changed many House districts significantly since the last time the Dems held a majority and although there has been some pushback by the courts, not enough, and more changes are being plotted and implemented right now. In addition, voting rights have been rolled back pretty drastically in some places and intimidation is re-emerging as another obstacle.

On the Dem side, hopefully enough people are pissed off enough to bring in new blood to the races. At the upper level, though, the Dems don't seem as of yet to have embraced the idea that it will take a new kind of Democratic party to get back on a winning streak. Not enough people vote for Republican-lite to pull it off, and the Dem's slide into politically correct subgroup protectionism is not a winning electoral strategy either. Civil rights aren't protected by tut tut shaming people about the way they think or talk, they're gained when people are pissed off and the only way I can see for the Dems to be pissed off in a sustained enough way to matter is for the party to diminish the corporate wing's power and go with true populism which means risking it all on being more liberal than Americans have voted since at least the 60s/70s if not even more liberal than then. Centrism is a failure but it's an addicting (and pocket lining) one, and an approach that Dems screwed up. The Dems have been too pro-pharma, pro-banking, pro-lawyer to do what they should have done, which is get deep support from the more innovative business people in the tech industry and pursue more radical change, even if all that can be done for years at a time is getting support for the ideas in public minds.

But even more to my concern is that I perceive something changing in the heart of America, this willingness to hold Orwellian self-contradictory beliefs, and to deny facts and scientific consensus. People would rather argue than learn. People are more tribal than i've ever seen. The Fox News strategy of turning everything into one side vs the other has not only worked among its audience base, but has gone into much darker territory further right, and has hobbled mainstream media in reporting (which already has a mixed allegiance to the truth thanks to deregulation), and the left is no longer immune (if it ever was, but it's certainly much worse now than in the past) to the game either. The truth is not easily come by, and you have to work for it, sifting through a lot of contradictory opinions and analyzing everything you read to separate fact from opinion from propaganda. And you have to really want to find it in order to ever actually see it, and a lot of people I think have given up bothering and instead just parrot whatever their tribe is saying in the moment, even if they said something different last week. It's frankly frightening as hell to me, more than Trump himself or what he could do, more than the anti-science/pro-social conservatism wing of the R party. We are losing touch with reality, and nobody seems to really care.

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