The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

I had a few minutes and just now saw the outrage over my D list barbarians comment.

I shouldn’t even do this but just in case any of the people here who I respect and know to not just be internet gangsters who act like they’re fucking perfect that have doubts on my thoughts relative to Jan 6th I will.


Was it fucked up? Yes sir. Could it have opened the door for something truly awful? Yes it could have. Was it surprising? No it was not. And I think there is more of that sort of thing coming if shit doesn’t change. And whether you like it or not, you can’t just shrug at shit like the riots this summer and act like this is the end of the world. Also, since oilpliers is the arbiter of who gets taken seriously Ill prop myself up in the same fashion. If you are outraged over what those people did but haven’t given a thought to an unarmed person being shot and killed and then the whole incident essentially just getting memory holed, you’re full of shit. Even more so if if you screamed about police brutality all summer but don’t care about this.
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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

beantownbubba wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:05 pm
@boyyourself, cole younger and LBRod:

I'm really curious (straight up, this is not a "gotcha" or rhetorical set up):

What's your take on the "sink or swim" ex-mayor of Colorado City, TX?
Don’t know if you still want to know what I think but I’m going to tell you anyway. The short answer is that it was a shitty thing to say but I don’t care that much. I despise politicians. I don’t know why people are surprised when they act like the scum that they are or why it makes much of a ripple for anyone in terms of making them feel much beyond sort of mildly disgusted. The guy paid for it besides, right? So now I care even less.

One thing I’m growing exponentially more tired of is the way our society is always looking for the next thing to be outraged about and the way we hold people to a standard we can’t come up to ourselves. People say stupid and wrong things. Everybody. Social media has made it so that it’s a hell of a lot easier for people to say those things in public and it has made it easier for people who love to go after people for it. So many people act like they’re fucking perfect these days. Every single one of us here could be torn to shreds for things we have said if the wrong person heard it. All of us. Do such statements encapsulate who we are? Of course not. I’m not even really talking about politicians. I’m talking about everybody.

Again, did this guy say something shitty? He did. Does that mean he’s a horrible person? I don’t know. It might. He’s paid for it. Do people have shitty days, lose their temper, fly hot and say things they wish they hadn’t said? Yeah. Everybody does. But so many don’t want to admit it.
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John A Arkansawyer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Cole Younger wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:39 pm
I shouldn’t even do this but just in case any of the people here who I respect and know to not just be internet gangsters who act like they’re fucking perfect that have doubts on my thoughts relative to Jan 6th I will.

Was it fucked up? Yes sir. Could it have opened the door for something truly awful? Yes it could have. Was it surprising? No it was not. And I think there is more of that sort of thing coming if shit doesn’t change. And whether you like it or not, you can’t just shrug at shit like the riots this summer and act like this is the end of the world.
That's fair. Pretending the riots which accompanied a few of the many widespread demonstrations weren't political violence isn't honest. I don't know that I've seen anyone here do that, but I have seen folks say it elsewhere. The mind boggles. I can distinguish between violence I can accept and violence I can't without pretending violence I accept isn't violence just because I approve of it. When you play those tricks on yourself, you stop treating violence as the dangerous game it is, and what you accept gets worse all the time, because you don't perceive what you accept as being as bad as it is.
Cole Younger wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:29 pm
One thing I’m growing exponentially more tired of is the way our society is always looking for the next thing to be outraged about and the way we hold people to a standard we can’t come up to ourselves. People say stupid and wrong things. Everybody. Social media has made it so that it’s a hell of a lot easier for people to say those things in public and it has made it easier for people who love to go after people for it. So many people act like they’re fucking perfect these days. Every single one of us here could be torn to shreds for things we have said if the wrong person heard it. All of us. Do such statements encapsulate who we are? Of course not. I’m not even really talking about politicians. I’m talking about everybody.

Again, did this guy say something shitty? He did. Does that mean he’s a horrible person? I don’t know. It might. He’s paid for it. Do people have shitty days, lose their temper, fly hot and say things they wish they hadn’t said? Yeah. Everybody does. But so many don’t want to admit it.
From your lips to god's ear, brother.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

John A Arkansawyer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Cole, there's one other thing I forgot to mention. It turns out you were indeed wrong about Orange Man. Those of us who thought he was thinking about staying in office no matter whether he won the election or not were right. You should take that into consideration when you judge the actions of people over the last four years who've done things you didn't approve of: They lived in a country where the President eventually instigated an attack on his own government, and they'd correctly evaluated him as likely to do so.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:39 pm
And whether you like it or not, you can’t just shrug at shit like the riots this summer and act like this is the end of the world. Also, since oilpliers is the arbiter of who gets taken seriously Ill prop myself up in the same fashion. If you are outraged over what those people did but haven’t given a thought to an unarmed person being shot and killed and then the whole incident essentially just getting memory holed, you’re full of shit. Even more so if if you screamed about police brutality all summer but don’t care about this.
I agree that some people (and by "some people" I'm not trying to minimize it; I include any number of people in leadership or influential media positions) inappropriately minimized some or all of the violence we experienced last summer. There's no excuse for that.

While there is no question that some people underplayed the violence this summer, at least IMHO plenty of people (same clarification as above) overplayed the violence. Given the wide range of reactions and the distortions of those reactions in the popular imagination aka social media, the comparison of the reaction to this summer's violence to the reaction to the violence of January 6th doesn't resonate for me.

Of more interest to me is the substantive comparison. That is the presumed equivalence between violence in the streets, largely random and if not random not intended to overthrow the government, and an attack on the seat of government while it was in session with the express purpose of stopping the government from performing its functions and overturning a duly and validly decided election on the basis of... well, on the basis of nothing. If those things are equivalent to you so be it, but I hope you'll understand that since I don't see them as remotely equivalent I don't share your dismay about the comparative reactions. Which is not an endorsement of the violence this summer or the excuses made by some for it.

Also, FWIW I don't understand the last sentence that I quoted.
Last edited by beantownbubba on Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:29 pm
The guy paid for it besides, right? So now I care even less.
I certainly agree that this event had no lasting significance and was only relevant, if at all, at that specific moment in time.
Cole Younger wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:29 pm
One thing I’m growing exponentially more tired of is the way our society is always looking for the next thing to be outraged about and the way we hold people to a standard we can’t come up to ourselves. People say stupid and wrong things. Everybody. Social media has made it so that it’s a hell of a lot easier for people to say those things in public and it has made it easier for people who love to go after people for it. So many people act like they’re fucking perfect these days. Every single one of us here could be torn to shreds for things we have said if the wrong person heard it. All of us. Do such statements encapsulate who we are? Of course not. I’m not even really talking about politicians. I’m talking about everybody.
I agree with this 100% and think I've written about it here more than once (which is just another way of saying I agree, not that my word is the last word on the subject). It happens to be directly relevant today due to the withdrawal of Neera Tanden's nomination for OMB director. In her case it wasn't even so much that she made comments that were "mistakes" in retrospect so much as her comments were impolitic but I think the issue is the same. As we've discussed before in relation to judicial and other nominations we are moving towards a process in which they only people who can succeed are people who have never accomplished anything or who don't believe anything or at least don't have the courage of their convictions. This is not a good thing.

I do want to distinguish one aspect of the original TX incident because it goes to perhaps my oldest soap box issue, leadership and the lack thereof. I am of the opinion that people who are given or take on significant responsibility in leadership roles should generally be measured by how they respond to a crisis. IOW, there are plenty of people who can steer ships, even big ships, through placid waters. That's one good reason why I argue that so many CEO's are so overpaid: On a day to day basis and within their peer group the job just isn't that hard. The reason why we pay leaders the big bucks, whether that's in business, civic groups, government or anything else, is so that they're there and ready when we need them, IOW when there is a crisis. My view is that how one acts in a crisis is the measure of a person. On that basis, that mayor (whose name I've already forgotten) completely failed, not so much as a matter of saying something regrettable but because he didn't step up and lead when leadership was needed. That he didn't do so as a matter of personal/political philosophy is no excuse and no different than failing due to incompetence. If there's a takeaway from this incident, this is it, not that a guy said something stupid and had to resign over it (as to which see the previous paragraph).
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Iowan
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

I do get annoyed by conflating the riots this summer with what happened on January 6.

The riots this summer were wrong, and were largely condemned by people on the left. But conservatives keep telling me I supported the riots this summer. I'd like to see where I did. I saw some wacko far left commenters supporting it, but it was absolutely rejected by the mainstream left.

And also, these were random acts of violence that didn't seem targeted at doing anything other than blowing off steam. Is this wrong? It's absolutely wrong. But it is nowhere near as bad for the country as a coordinated attempt to violently prevent the government from performing their constitutional duties because you're mad about election results. You can recognize that two things are wrong without saying they're equally bad. Non consensually grabbing someone's butt is wrong. It's undeniably a bad act. It's not as bad as raping someone. Almost everyone would agree with this statement.

The riots were sexual assault. 1/6 was rape.

Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

I want to make clear that I don’t think any of you three guys thought the riots were cool. I get that y’all think 1/6 was worse. I don’t share that opinion because I believe both were domestic terrorism. Violence to achieve political goals here on the home front. And I disagree that the riots were not coordinated and planned. Some of it was just spontaneous but the part I’m talking about was most certainly planned and was bragged about by the groups doing the planning and executing the plan. Antifa and BLM have both talked about it. I’m all on board with BLM the sentiment. I’m dead against the organization.

@beantownbubba, my last sentence in that post just meant if police brutality is wrong then it’s wrong all the time. A government LEO shot and killed an unarmed person on 1/6 and it’s like it never happened. There was wall to wall coverage of the act of police brutality that sparked the riots. It’s wrong all the time. It isn’t just wrong when certain people suffer at the hands of it.

I blame the media for that. Things won’t get better until the average American views the media as they do the tobacco industry. They sell a product and it’s deadly.
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Iowan
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:40 am
I want to make clear that I don’t think any of you three guys thought the riots were cool. I get that y’all think 1/6 was worse. I don’t share that opinion because I believe both were domestic terrorism. Violence to achieve political goals here on the home front. And I disagree that the riots were not coordinated and planned. Some of it was just spontaneous but the part I’m talking about was most certainly planned and was bragged about by the groups doing the planning and executing the plan. Antifa and BLM have both talked about it. I’m all on board with BLM the sentiment. I’m dead against the organization.

@beantownbubba, my last sentence in that post just meant if police brutality is wrong then it’s wrong all the time. A government LEO shot and killed an unarmed person on 1/6 and it’s like it never happened. There was wall to wall coverage of the act of police brutality that sparked the riots. It’s wrong all the time. It isn’t just wrong when certain people suffer at the hands of it.

I blame the media for that. Things won’t get better until the average American views the media as they do the tobacco industry. They sell a product and it’s deadly.
I think the average American already has this view.

The problem is they just go find a media source that tells them what they want to hear/believe and decide that's the one true fountain of truth.

beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:01 am
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:40 am
I want to make clear that I don’t think any of you three guys thought the riots were cool. I get that y’all think 1/6 was worse. I don’t share that opinion because I believe both were domestic terrorism. Violence to achieve political goals here on the home front. And I disagree that the riots were not coordinated and planned. Some of it was just spontaneous but the part I’m talking about was most certainly planned and was bragged about by the groups doing the planning and executing the plan. Antifa and BLM have both talked about it. I’m all on board with BLM the sentiment. I’m dead against the organization.

@beantownbubba, my last sentence in that post just meant if police brutality is wrong then it’s wrong all the time. A government LEO shot and killed an unarmed person on 1/6 and it’s like it never happened. There was wall to wall coverage of the act of police brutality that sparked the riots. It’s wrong all the time. It isn’t just wrong when certain people suffer at the hands of it.

I blame the media for that. Things won’t get better until the average American views the media as they do the tobacco industry. They sell a product and it’s deadly.
I think the average American already has this view.

The problem is they just go find a media source that tells them what they want to hear/believe and decide that's the one true fountain of truth.
I agree with Iowan, with the additional concern that way too many people across the political spectrum get their news from sources that do not fit any reasonable definition of a "media source" as distinct from gossip and the repetition of unfounded data w/out any attempt to fact check.

I bet nobody's surprised that I'll have more to say later when I have the time.
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Zip City
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

The person shot and killed on 1/6 was invading a government building and in a group trying to break down a door to do harm. I hate that they got shot, but I think it would be no different than a BLM group trying to break into a police station and getting shot in the process.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

Zip City wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:33 pm
The person shot and killed on 1/6 was invading a government building and in a group trying to break down a door to do harm. I hate that they got shot, but I think it would be no different than a BLM group trying to break into a police station and getting shot in the process.
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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Zip City wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:33 pm
The person shot and killed on 1/6 was invading a government building and in a group trying to break down a door to do harm. I hate that they got shot, but I think it would be no different than a BLM group trying to break into a police station and getting shot in the process.
Did that happen though? Or did the cops act as if there was nothing they could do?

Why does a “government building” matter more than somebody’s home or business? I think that is what has bothered me most about this entire thing. The idea that it’s no biggie if you destroy someone’s property but doing something similar to the ruling class and we need walls.
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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:01 am
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:40 am
I want to make clear that I don’t think any of you three guys thought the riots were cool. I get that y’all think 1/6 was worse. I don’t share that opinion because I believe both were domestic terrorism. Violence to achieve political goals here on the home front. And I disagree that the riots were not coordinated and planned. Some of it was just spontaneous but the part I’m talking about was most certainly planned and was bragged about by the groups doing the planning and executing the plan. Antifa and BLM have both talked about it. I’m all on board with BLM the sentiment. I’m dead against the organization.

@beantownbubba, my last sentence in that post just meant if police brutality is wrong then it’s wrong all the time. A government LEO shot and killed an unarmed person on 1/6 and it’s like it never happened. There was wall to wall coverage of the act of police brutality that sparked the riots. It’s wrong all the time. It isn’t just wrong when certain people suffer at the hands of it.

I blame the media for that. Things won’t get better until the average American views the media as they do the tobacco industry. They sell a product and it’s deadly.
I think the average American already has this view.

The problem is they just go find a media source that tells them what they want to hear/believe and decide that's the one true fountain of truth.
I hope you’re right. But seeing as how people find something to be outraged by every single day when it’s fed to them I’m skeptical.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

boyyourself
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by boyyourself »

Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:01 pm
Iowan wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:01 am
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:40 am
I want to make clear that I don’t think any of you three guys thought the riots were cool. I get that y’all think 1/6 was worse. I don’t share that opinion because I believe both were domestic terrorism. Violence to achieve political goals here on the home front. And I disagree that the riots were not coordinated and planned. Some of it was just spontaneous but the part I’m talking about was most certainly planned and was bragged about by the groups doing the planning and executing the plan. Antifa and BLM have both talked about it. I’m all on board with BLM the sentiment. I’m dead against the organization.

@beantownbubba, my last sentence in that post just meant if police brutality is wrong then it’s wrong all the time. A government LEO shot and killed an unarmed person on 1/6 and it’s like it never happened. There was wall to wall coverage of the act of police brutality that sparked the riots. It’s wrong all the time. It isn’t just wrong when certain people suffer at the hands of it.

I blame the media for that. Things won’t get better until the average American views the media as they do the tobacco industry. They sell a product and it’s deadly.
I think the average American already has this view.

The problem is they just go find a media source that tells them what they want to hear/believe and decide that's the one true fountain of truth.
I hope you’re right. But seeing as how people find something to be outraged by every single day when it’s fed to them I’m skeptical.


No need to think for yourself Cole. Just put on a mask and burn your dr suess books. It's that simple.

Zip City
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:54 pm
Zip City wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:33 pm
The person shot and killed on 1/6 was invading a government building and in a group trying to break down a door to do harm. I hate that they got shot, but I think it would be no different than a BLM group trying to break into a police station and getting shot in the process.
Did that happen though? Or did the cops act as if there was nothing they could do?

Why does a “government building” matter more than somebody’s home or business? I think that is what has bothered me most about this entire thing. The idea that it’s no biggie if you destroy someone’s property but doing something similar to the ruling class and we need walls.
Who said it's more important? Who said it's not biggie to destroy someone's property? No one here, I assure you

That said, that woman would still be alive today had she decided to not break into the Capitol Building. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

When I was a young firebrand, there was no such thing as the "mainstream media." There was just "the media." Which consisted of exactly 3 television networks, the New York Times and a whole bunch of other newspapers of varying quality and reputation, the overwhelming majority of which were right of center and a few weekly newsmagazines the most popular of which, Time Magazine was proudly conservative. The TV news operations in particular affected an attitude of "objectivity" and "professionalism" which was never true but at the least the newsrooms were totally separate from the entertainment and advertising divisions and all saw themselves to some extent as the proud inheritors of the tradition of Edward R. Murrow. For a while the fairness doctrine forced at least some little bit of alternative views into the mix but that was always more concept than reality. Later, a few left leaning weeklies had their moment in their sun and did some great investigative reporting and music coverage in among the sex ads. Radio was pretty much a non-factor when it came to news, consisting mostly of headlines on the hour. The most influential radio commentator may have been Howard Cosell "Speaking of Sports" who spoke out in favor of such radical concepts as Muhammad Ali's religious freedom and Curt Flood's right to be treated as a human being.

In that environment I ranted and raved plenty about the media and how they determined what qualified as "news," swallowed whole pretty much whatever the government told them, refused to cover news from minority communities (you could read the entire New York Times w/out seeing a single reference to anything north of 110th street, to say nothing of "the outer boroughs), and generally took an Establishment, conservative, conventional and right of center view of the world. Actual genocides of entire peoples like the minority in East Timor literally went unreported. So, yeah, my skepticism of the media goes way back. But even at my most raving I never doubted that the media was trying for a certain well understood version of truth, accuracy and factual reporting. Today, much of what counts as "media" whether mainstream or otherwise, is mostly or completely untethered from accepted professional practices, a commitment to facts and fact checking and a mission of delivering news to its audience as opposed to entertaining and hitting the emotional hot buttons of their respective audiences. Needless to say a commitment to presenting other points of view is virtually completely absent. So I would say that the media has never been trustworthy but the reality today is a whole different universe in which the remains of the mainstream media are not the worst practitioners of the worst excesses. We are all the poorer for this state of affairs, which I believe is quite an indictment from someone coming from the background I've just described.
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Iowan
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

boyyourself wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:49 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:01 pm
Iowan wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:01 am


I think the average American already has this view.

The problem is they just go find a media source that tells them what they want to hear/believe and decide that's the one true fountain of truth.
I hope you’re right. But seeing as how people find something to be outraged by every single day when it’s fed to them I’m skeptical.


No need to think for yourself Cole. Just put on a mask and burn your dr suess books. It's that simple.
Who advocated for burning Dr. Seuss books? I saw that the publisher decided to stop printing 6 out of his 60 books. But that's a business making a decision about what to do with their property. Smells an awful lot like capitalism to me.

I missed the woke mob demanding that this happen.

Zip City
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:03 pm
boyyourself wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:49 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:01 pm


I hope you’re right. But seeing as how people find something to be outraged by every single day when it’s fed to them I’m skeptical.


No need to think for yourself Cole. Just put on a mask and burn your dr suess books. It's that simple.
Who advocated for burning Dr. Seuss books? I saw that the publisher decided to stop printing 6 out of his 60 books. But that's a business making a decision about what to do with their property. Smells an awful lot like capitalism to me.

I missed the woke mob demanding that this happen.
They didn't, but Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz et al are spinning it to blame Biden and the "radical leftists" for "canceling" Dr. Seuss (all of which is total bullshit)
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:40 am
@beantownbubba, my last sentence in that post just meant if police brutality is wrong then it’s wrong all the time. A government LEO shot and killed an unarmed person on 1/6 and it’s like it never happened. There was wall to wall coverage of the act of police brutality that sparked the riots. It’s wrong all the time. It isn’t just wrong when certain people suffer at the hands of it.
CY, you and I have been through a lot in these pages over the years. We have disagreed way more than we've agreed, but have found common ground often enough, sometimes in the most unexpected ways. There have been a couple of rough spots over the years, but by and large we have treated each other with respect, maybe even affection. I've learned a lot from you and hope that's been mutual. I consider you a friend and have very much enjoyed our too short and too few f2f meetings. Which is why I regret where we now find ourselves. I thought it was hard to bridge the gap created by our disagreement over the equivalence (or not) of the summer riots and the attack on the Capitol. But now this? I truly and literally do not understand where you're coming from on this.

I honestly don't believe that you think that all police violence is police brutality, which is to say that I'm pretty sure you believe that the use of force by the police is sometimes justified. There may be the slightest of slight arguments that the shooting of the rioter at the Capitol was an unjustified use of force. I don't believe that, not when the rioters were attacking the police, killing one and maiming a number of others, looking for the Vice President and Speaker of the House of the United States with the express aim of killing them, invading the seat of government with the express intent of overturning the government by prohibiting it from conducting its business, and where a single policeman was trying to "hold the line" against an angry mob that greatly outnumbered him including some who carried weapons who were trying (and to some extent succeeded) in invading the government the officer was charged with protecting. But the woman who died was unarmed so there's a scintilla of an argument there. But comparing that, even if somehow unjustified, to what the police did to George Floyd? I cannot grasp that. I can see no, I mean zero, basis for claiming that those events are equivalent and that both are examples of "police brutality." The facts and circumstances are completely different in every important and most minor ways.

From time to time I have used the term "I don't understand" to describe my reaction to something someone has written here. But the use of the term "not understanding" in that context was something less than literal, meaning something along the lines of "surprised, puzzled, what am I missing here, what facts are you relying on, maybe what is the logic path from point A to point B?" That pales in comparison to what I mean when I say I don't understand the quote above. At first I didn't understand the words and you kindly explained yourself. I now understand the words, but I literally cannot believe you mean them. If you do I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion and I find it very difficult to understand what common ground might exist between us. No hyperbole. No faux outrage. I am truly shocked, shaken and saddened by this.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:03 pm
boyyourself wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:49 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:01 pm


I hope you’re right. But seeing as how people find something to be outraged by every single day when it’s fed to them I’m skeptical.


No need to think for yourself Cole. Just put on a mask and burn your dr suess books. It's that simple.
Who advocated for burning Dr. Seuss books? I saw that the publisher decided to stop printing 6 out of his 60 books. But that's a business making a decision about what to do with their property. Smells an awful lot like capitalism to me.

I missed the woke mob demanding that this happen.
Whatever "this Dr. Seuss thing" is, I don't see how it can be considered an example of "cancel culture," at least as I understand it. But of course once a buzz term has reached a certain status it has less and less substantive content and more and more "value" or use as an emotional hot button.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

Iowan
Posts: 12063
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:33 pm
Iowan wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:03 pm
boyyourself wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:49 pm




No need to think for yourself Cole. Just put on a mask and burn your dr suess books. It's that simple.
Who advocated for burning Dr. Seuss books? I saw that the publisher decided to stop printing 6 out of his 60 books. But that's a business making a decision about what to do with their property. Smells an awful lot like capitalism to me.

I missed the woke mob demanding that this happen.
Whatever "this Dr. Seuss thing" is, I don't see how it can be considered an example of "cancel culture," at least as I understand it. But of course once a buzz term has reached a certain status it has less and less substantive content and more and more "value" or use as an emotional hot button.
Yeah, the publisher wasn't even being called out from what I gather, but Facebook will be damned before they let that fact get in the way of the weekly scheduled outrage.

Cole Younger
Posts: 3989
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:28 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:40 am
@beantownbubba, my last sentence in that post just meant if police brutality is wrong then it’s wrong all the time. A government LEO shot and killed an unarmed person on 1/6 and it’s like it never happened. There was wall to wall coverage of the act of police brutality that sparked the riots. It’s wrong all the time. It isn’t just wrong when certain people suffer at the hands of it.
CY, you and I have been through a lot in these pages over the years. We have disagreed way more than we've agreed, but have found common ground often enough, sometimes in the most unexpected ways. There have been a couple of rough spots over the years, but by and large we have treated each other with respect, maybe even affection. I've learned a lot from you and hope that's been mutual. I consider you a friend and have very much enjoyed our too short and too few f2f meetings. Which is why I regret where we now find ourselves. I thought it was hard to bridge the gap created by our disagreement over the equivalence (or not) of the summer riots and the attack on the Capitol. But now this? I truly and literally do not understand where you're coming from on this.

I honestly don't believe that you think that all police violence is police brutality, which is to say that I'm pretty sure you believe that the use of force by the police is sometimes justified. There may be the slightest of slight arguments that the shooting of the rioter at the Capitol was an unjustified use of force. I don't believe that, not when the rioters were attacking the police, killing one and maiming a number of others, looking for the Vice President and Speaker of the House of the United States with the express aim of killing them, invading the seat of government with the express intent of overturning the government by prohibiting it from conducting its business, and where a single policeman was trying to "hold the line" against an angry mob that greatly outnumbered him including some who carried weapons who were trying (and to some extent succeeded) in invading the government the officer was charged with protecting. But the woman who died was unarmed so there's a scintilla of an argument there. But comparing that, even if somehow unjustified, to what the police did to George Floyd? I cannot grasp that. I can see no, I mean zero, basis for claiming that those events are equivalent and that both are examples of "police brutality." The facts and circumstances are completely different in every important and most minor ways.

From time to time I have used the term "I don't understand" to describe my reaction to something someone has written here. But the use of the term "not understanding" in that context was something less than literal, meaning something along the lines of "surprised, puzzled, what am I missing here, what facts are you relying on, maybe what is the logic path from point A to point B?" That pales in comparison to what I mean when I say I don't understand the quote above. At first I didn't understand the words and you kindly explained yourself. I now understand the words, but I literally cannot believe you mean them. If you do I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion and I find it very difficult to understand what common ground might exist between us. No hyperbole. No faux outrage. I am truly shocked, shaken and saddened by this.
Man I’m going to be careful here because I like you and don’t want some sort of long lasting issue to crop up with you and me because I let my ego cause me to score some cheap points through sarcasm. But this is at least the second time recently you have expressed that you are saddened, disappointed, shocked etc by something I said. I’ll be honest, I get tired of explaining myself and feeling like I have to prove I’m not among the worst of my kind.

To me it’s a simple statement that there are not special kinds of people in my eyes so police committing acts of violence against someone is wrong all the time. Always. That’s all I mean. I don’t know what is controversial or dark about that. People who are entrusted with a authority and power that most of us aren’t afforded on the pretense of protecting people then turning and abusing that trust and authority is wrong every time. Shooting unarmed people is wrong every time. That’s it. No hidden meanings. I don’t speak in code. John A days I word things badly sometimes. He’s probably right. I’m an iron worker from Georgia with a degree from a state school. Not a lawyer or someone with a prestigious education. I’m kind of being a smart ass now but I say that to say that I reply to this stuff as I see it. I don’t sit down and spend a bunch of time deciding how I’m going to word it. If I sometimes word things badly I don’t see where that’s a big deal. And if it seems like I’m saying something awful all I can say is, you’ve spent time around me as you said. Several times. Hell you spent most a show sitting next to my wife a couple Homecomings ago. You know what kind of guy I am. I’m nothing special but I am damned sure not the warped vision some people have in their heads of what they think the typical evil conservative white guy is. So I get tired of having to allay any fears that I might be that to anyone who knows me. I couldn’t care less how some internet shit head that I’ve never met perceives me. I feel like an asshole talking to you like this because I like and respect you and this feels dickheaded and like something I should have sent by pm. But since your post was in the open forum I guess I’ll answer in the open forum.

If this comes off as overly dramatic, thin skinned, whatever, maybe it is. But man I’m tired of this.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

Cole Younger
Posts: 3989
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Zip City wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:14 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:54 pm
Zip City wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:33 pm
The person shot and killed on 1/6 was invading a government building and in a group trying to break down a door to do harm. I hate that they got shot, but I think it would be no different than a BLM group trying to break into a police station and getting shot in the process.
Did that happen though? Or did the cops act as if there was nothing they could do?

Why does a “government building” matter more than somebody’s home or business? I think that is what has bothered me most about this entire thing. The idea that it’s no biggie if you destroy someone’s property but doing something similar to the ruling class and we need walls.
Who said it's more important? Who said it's not biggie to destroy someone's property? No one here, I assure you

That said, that woman would still be alive today had she decided to not break into the Capitol Building. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
As to your last point, no doubt.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

Cole Younger
Posts: 3989
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

@boyyourself, Coca Cola and Miller-Coors telling their employees to act “less white” surpasses all recent permutations of political stupidity IMO.😆
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

LBRod
Posts: 4362
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Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:28 pm
killing one
You are better than this, bubba. You have a great way with words, and I always enjoy reading your thoughts as expressed here,
but that is not what happened.
Don't hurt people, and don't take their stuff.

LBRod
Posts: 4362
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:15 pm
Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:07 pm
Zip City wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:14 pm


That said, that woman would still be alive today had she decided to not break into the Capitol Building. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
As to your last point, no doubt.
True enough, but that doesn't mean she deserved to die.
Don't hurt people, and don't take their stuff.

beantownbubba
Posts: 21751
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:06 pm
But this is at least the second time recently you have expressed that you are saddened, disappointed, shocked etc by something I said.
Yeah, it is. I weighed the dangers of repeating what no doubt sounds like high drama against trying to communicate my distress and my struggle trying to work this stuff out and decided on doing it again. That's a risk. I get it. If it sounds ridiculous or annoying to you, that was not my intent though I knew it was a possibility. If I am sacrificing clarity to emotion, that's not a good thing. Lesson possibly learned, at least taken under advisement.
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:06 pm
I get tired of explaining myself and feeling like I have to prove I’m not among the worst of my kind.
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:06 pm
if it seems like I’m saying something awful all I can say is, you’ve spent time around me as you said. Several times. Hell you spent most a show sitting next to my wife a couple Homecomings ago. You know what kind of guy I am. I’m nothing special but I am damned sure not the warped vision some people have in their heads of what they think the typical evil conservative white guy is. So I get tired of having to allay any fears that I might be that to anyone who knows me.
Yeah, I bet you do get tired of it. I get tired of it too and I don't have nearly the number of people reacting negatively to or misunderstanding what I say. I wish things were different in a number of ways for all of us. At least in my own mind I've tried to address it a few times over the years, with at best limited temporary success and not even that if I'm honest. I've kind of run out of ideas and these recent posts aimed directly at you represent an attempt by me to try to approach things a different way. That may not be obvious and even if it is, it's clearly unsuccessful. I regret that.

What's also clear is that I made a big mistake by trying to call on our mutual respect, friendship and history to try to project sincerity and as a good way to focus on the issues as opposed to making a personal attack. I see now that what I did had an effect far different than what I was aiming for. I think I see why and in very quick retrospect i'm not sure why I thought my approach was a good idea.

In saying that I think you're a good guy that I respect and like I was trying to say precisely that I don't think you're evil or a stereotype of evil or a warped vision or anything like that. That's exactly MY problem: I don't think you're evil or stupid or unthoughtful or a prick or whatever and that is exactly why I can't understand some of the things you've said lately. Not because saying them makes you evil, but more like how can a person I know not to be evil or a stereotype, etc. have opinions that I think are radical to the point of shocking to the extent that it forecloses discussion much less a path to understanding or agreement? I think it is different to say "I don't understand how a person can think that" as opposed to "only an evil person can think that." To me that's a huge distinction. Maybe I haven't made that clear or maybe you disagree with the premise. But that's the distinction I was trying for in my previous post.

At the time of my last post I was struggling for a way to talk to you about issues like the Capitol riot or police brutality and now I understand that we probably can't have a productive discussion on the subject because it seems we don't start from even a shred of common ground or a bit of a shared foundation. I don't think that makes you evil, it makes a part of you unknown to me and very possibly unknowable which in turn has larger implications for the society in which we live. I can only repeat that I just don't understand it. You say "police committing acts of violence against someone is wrong all the time." I don't understand how you can believe that and I am disturbed that believing that provides a basis from which you can conclude that the Capitol killing and the George Floyd murder are equivalent. To me it's like we're not even talking about the same subject. It happens that the subject is an important one with implications for lots of other related important issues (some of which are highly charged) and here we are separated by a gulf that feels far different and far wider than, say, a disagreement about whether poor people are best served by being encouraged to pull themselves up by their bootstraps versus being given a helping hand along the way (chosen simply as a classic example of old fashioned liberal v. conservative; no larger message or dig intended).

So, FWIW, I don't think you're evil. I think we are operating in parallel universes that don't intersect very much and that can't be dismissed by falling back on the tried and true like all politicians are lying sacks of shit or it's the media's fault (though both of those things contribute to the problem). I'm used to that when it comes to "some guy on the internet." I'm not used to it w/ someone I know and I fear the consequences a lot more.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

boyyourself
Posts: 957
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by boyyourself »

Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:43 pm
@boyyourself, Coca Cola and Miller-Coors telling their employees to act “less white” surpasses all recent permutations of political stupidity IMO.😆

Yeah I'm gonna file that under the dumbest and one of the most racist things that I've ever heard, for now. Good entertainment though.

beantownbubba
Posts: 21751
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

LBRod wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:13 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:28 pm
killing one
You are better than this, bubba. You have a great way with words, and I always enjoy reading your thoughts as expressed here,
but that is not what happened.
Damn. I don't understand what I got wrong or misstated. I'm not kidding. Please explain so I can understand and hopefully explain whatever might need to be explained or correct whatever might need correcting.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

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