The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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pearlbeer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

beantownbubba wrote:Really? THIS is what you’ve been howling about for the past 7 years? Adopt THIS and Obamacare is suddenly acceptable? The Ryancare proposal just oozes w/ cynicism, hypocrisy and stupidity. Anybody out there still want to claim that the objections to Obamacare were substantive?

Remember a few years ago when “people” were touting Paul Ryan as the next big thing? Well, “people,” and you know who you are, I think it’s about time that you stepped up and admitted that you were simply seduced by a relatively young, relatively pretty face. There may be other explanations for Ryan’s failure as a legislator & leader, but I see 2 main possibilities: He’s either really dumb or he’s really bad at politics. I’m thinking it’s mostly the latter. OTOH, Mitch McConnell is kicking the Democrats’ collective ass all over DC. His fingerprints are on nothing, he’s letting everyone else do the heavy lifting while he manipulate and maneuvers behind the scenes and he’s gonna be there w/ a shit-eating grin when the dust finally settles unless the Democrats somehow manage to get their act together (hahaha). I’m guessing Pence is his boy and he’s gonna ride him over the finish line.

The problem w/ Ryancare isn’t this provision or that provision (or, more accurately, there are plenty of problems w/ plenty of the provisions but ultimately that’s not why it sucks). The problem is that the whole thing is a bastard mutt. It is not guided by economics (the economics of the plan ordain only one result: FAILURE). It is not guided by economic principle like, you know, capitalism or socialism or any other economic ism. It is not informed by any political principle or theory since it bears no relation to any particular view of the appropriate role of the state or the relationship between the individual and the state. It is not guided or motivated by a burning desire to accomplish something worthwhile like, say, universal healthcare. Rather, its lack of intent to do anything in particular is one of its biggest problems.

OTOH, it is clearly politics as usual in that the closest thing it has to a principle is cynicism (a mandate by any other name is still a mandate, even if it’s a hopelessly inefficient one; and pretending that this thing can possibly work takes guts and considerable acting skill) and it contains millions and millions (billions?) of dollars in giveaways to private business and rich people. It is Solomon’s baby shorn of wisdom. It is a true camel (i.e. a horse built by committee). It provides nothing to nobody (except the 1% and big business of course). The very idea that it is being sold as an improvement on Obamacare is flat out nauseating. Trump is of course already pretending he never said anything about covering more people more cheaply w/ better coverage. His promise was obviously absurd on its face but it didn’t even take him 60 days to give it up. That’s got to be some kind of record.

Trump, Ryan, Pence, Chaffetz, Schumer, Pelosi*, the whole lot of them aren’t worth a bucket of spit. McConnell is formidable for all the wrong reasons, but no less of a force to be reckoned with for all that. And Bannon is the real deal. A worthy adversary. Brains, guts, an holistic worldview and a plan. That guy is dangerous and the opposition has no equivalent, which is not a good thing. It turns out that all it takes to destroy a country is one dangerous man w/ a plan, one cunning man w/out principle who knows how to play the long game and a full bucket of spit.

*She did come up w/ that funny line about “Pride & Prejudice” at the Gridiron dinner, though.

Well said btb.

Mostly, the entire argument comes down to the individual mandate - that is where the bulk of the Republican's ire is focused. However, no one wants to be denied for pre-existing conditions. But, if you don't have the mandate, only the sick would need insurance. You can't have it both ways, and no one has delivered an adequate idea to solve this problem in a different way. (Well...except a single-payer system)
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Due to his relentless persistence and daily efforts, Jason Chaffetz has now become the overall #1 seed in the 2017 Backpfeifengesicht bracket, according to Joe Lunardi
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote: his relentless persistence and daily efforts
Nevertheless, he persisted.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

beantownbubba wrote:
whatwouldcooleydo? wrote: his relentless persistence and daily efforts
Nevertheless, he persisted.
precisely
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

pearlbeer wrote:

Mostly, the entire argument comes down to the individual mandate - that is where the bulk of the Republican's ire is focused. However, no one wants to be denied for pre-existing conditions. But, if you don't have the mandate, only the sick would need insurance. You can't have it both ways, and no one has delivered an adequate idea to solve this problem in a different way. (Well...except a single-payer system)
Actually, the GOP has another solution in their "plan". The individual mandate is gone, so no penalty/tax leveled via the feds. In it's place will be a system where the insurance companies will be allowed to penalize the consumer a 30% surcharge on the cost of their plan if a person allows his/her coverage to lapse for more than 8 weeks.

Fuck those fucking fucks until their arseholes resemble maggoty rotten apples.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

It looks right side up to me.

Image

If you're big on the meme-making tip, have at it!
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Steve King, of Iowa:

Image
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:Steve King, of Iowa:

Image
A similar salute can be directed toward Paul Ryan, for his fucking spineless rebuke of Steve King's comments.

Man...FUCK THESE GUYS.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

I was almost proud of the Iowa Republican Party for slamming King today; I really think they hate him, but put they can't get enough effort behind a primary challenger.

He's such a piece of shit. He'll never get out voted because his district contains the most conservative part of the state, and he'll never try for a more ambitious position, because he couldn't carry any statewide election. The 2nd most liberal county in the state is in his district now, which helps, but isn't quite enough.

NW IA Dutch would vote for an avowed child rapist if he had an R behind his name.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Iowan wrote:I was almost proud of the Iowa Republican Party for slamming King today; I really think they hate him, but put they can't get enough effort behind a primary challenger.
Didn't hear about that, good for them.

Here is the national GOP response

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Fuck these fucking fuckers. I just get madder everyday.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

George Lakoff’s The Political Mind is an important book. I highly recommend it to everyone interested in politics, our existing political conundrum, political communication, and the ways in which masses of people hear and process information. Lakoff has helpfully posted on his website an article which summarizes his argument quite nicely (I don’t know how comprehensible it is if one is not familiar w/ some of the concepts explained in more detail in the book, but it might be a good starting point): https://georgelakoff.com/2016/11/22/a-m ... ty-can-do/

Lakoff’s primary field is cognitive linguistics and his thesis is that our brains are essentially hard-wired, pre-conditioned from the earliest age, to process and understand political arguments and political terms in certain ways which are not-uniform across the population. Even basic terms like “freedom” and “liberty” are understood and responded to quite differently depending on that hard-wiring. Speaking of responding, he tells us that up to 98% (!!) of thought is unconscious. Think about that (see what I did there? Hehe). When you add hard-wiring to unconscious thought/reaction, you’re in a place very far away from the usual model of conscious, rational reasoning we assume applies to political debate and decision-making. He calls rational reasoning based on Cartesian logic “Old Enlightenment Reason” and says that we need a “New Enlightenment” based on the latest research to understand the modern brain and how its workings affect modern politics.
Simplifying considerably, Lakoff argues that we understand politics through very basic “frames” and “metaphors” all of which derive from the primary metaphor of “Nation as Family.” And w/in that Nation as Family metaphor we largely fall into two camps: Either we develop from a nurturing parent background or a strict father background. That primary tendency is then reinforced through repetition in many, many situations across a broad range of circumstances both political and otherwise. He also very helpfully notes that not all people are hard wired totally one way or the other. Importantly, what we call “moderates” are not people who have “blended” views that are sort of a compromise in the middle between opposing views, but rather, they have strong views that on some subjects are more influenced by the strict father part of their brain, and others more by the nurturing part. He also explains that “opposing circuits” do not fire simultaneously, so the stronger one on any given issue will have primacy which through constant repetition and use will become even stronger. I think this has important applications to our understanding of actual political campaigns and actual votes by real voters, particularly the legendary (infamous?) undecideds.

Applying his research and logic specifically to American politics, Lakoff asserts that changing someone’s mind on a given issue requires both figuring out how best to appeal to the right circuits and constantly repeating the desired message. Essentially, arguments need to be presented in terms of emotion, which does not mean “rah rah happy/sad” but rather appeals to unconscious processes and moral principles which correspond to or are derived from the two fundamental worldviews (nurturing v. strict father), and the primary frames that follow from them (things like empathy v. individual responsibility and taxes as community enhancing v. taxes as stealing private property). Phrases like “death taxes” are calculated to appeal to just these sorts of unconscious receptors and a few seconds of conscious thought is all it takes to realize that historically conservatives have been much better at that sort of thing than liberals, who tend to rely on facts and “rational argument”. It even extends to such notions as presenting choices in the affirmative or negative: “You have a 90% chance of surviving this operation” v. “ten percent of people who have this operation die.” The different framing actually affects real world decisions! Or, put another way, facts are overrated, especially by progressives.

Lakoff’s attempt to craft practical applications of his theories and discoveries are not wholly convincing. But at the very least they do point to the need for progressives to start thinking way outside the box in terms of understanding their own selves and how to communicate their messages. In particular, comparing how the Democratic Party acts with the methods and approaches Lakoff suggests does illuminate just how barren (pathetic?) the Democratic cupboard is.

Reading this book will undoubtedly help you understand some of the political phenomena we all observe around us and scratch our heads about. Reading it will make you smarter, better informed, a better consumer of messages of all sorts including the political and better able to analyze what’s really being said and done behind the smokescreen of the verbiage. Those are all really good things. But ultimately, cognitive linguistics is not the whole answer; the search for understanding continues.

Note: The processes and science Lakoff describes should be equally interesting to liberals and conservatives. However, it must be said that he clearly approaches things from a progressive direction which impacts the text in multiple ways which I’m sure will annoy conservatives. How much so, I don’t know but would love to hear about if anyone is so inclined.

I will cross-post in the books thread.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

I have not understood and continue to not understand why Trump has gone so "all in" on the healthcare bill. It seems both unnecessary (he could have dumped the whole thing in Ryan's lap) and incredibly high risk for him w/ not a lot of paths to success. Thursday's vote will be most interesting. While it probably can't make Trump's presidency if the bill passes the house, it should at least steady it and perhaps provide momentum going forward (at least until the Senate pulls the plug). If the bill fails, however, it could very well sink Trump's entire presidency or at the very least create a very high mountain to climb back just to even (unless heaven forbid we have a wild card "unifying event" in which case all bets are off). I just don't understand how he got himself in this position and i hate and distrust it when I don't understand something.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

i bet that the vote's not gonna happen on Thursday.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

tinnitus photography wrote:i bet that the vote's not gonna happen on Thursday.
Possible, but a course that has its own perils for Ryan and Trump. And speaking of things I don't understand, who schedules a vote on high profile legislation w/out being pretty damn sure he has the votes? Obviously part of the strategy was to ram this bill through quickly but there's a difference between quick and reckless. Whatever happens, it will be interesting.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

My understanding is the timing on this is based on it being a budget bill, which can pass with a simple majority (and has a deadline) vs an actual healthcare bill, which could be filibustered.

But yes, one would think that the first major bill to be pushed might have been something that could get some bipartisan support (infrastructure or VA, etc)
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

https://apnews.com/122ae0b5848345faa881 ... government

So former Trump campaign manager has been conspiring with Russia since 2005?

Smoke....fire....
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Zip City wrote:https://apnews.com/122ae0b5848345faa881 ... government

So former Trump campaign manager has been conspiring with Russia since 2005?

Smoke....fire....
It's also interesting that Spicer, in his presser two days ago, categorized Manafort's role as "minor" despite being the Chairman of the campaign for 4 months. Think the administration knew about this report, or nah? Ladies and gentlemen I give you the "post truth" era.

Oh an Manafort has lived in Trump Tower since 2006.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:It's also interesting that Spicer, in his presser two days ago, categorized Manafort's role as "minor" despite being the Chairman of the campaign for 4 months.
Noticed that, didja? The thing about these guys (among many other things) is that they don't do subtle. < sitting back eating popcorn while watching the blood flow from many backs emoji>
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tequila Cowboy wrote:It's also interesting that Spicer, in his presser two days ago, categorized Manafort's role as "minor" despite being the Chairman of the campaign for 4 months.
Noticed that, didja? The thing about these guys (among many other things) is that they don't do subtle. < sitting back eating popcorn while watching the blood flow from many backs emoji>
This motherfucker has dominoes toppling around him like nothing we've seen since Nixon, his people are blatantly lying for him every chance they get, and yet the Washington Post published a poll today that less than 4% of people who voted for him regret their choice and he's still polling in the high 80's among Republicans. I honestly don't get it.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

His people don't care about anything other than their "team" winning. American politics is just straight tribalism.

Trump could fuck toddlers on the Washington Mall, rip their guts out with his bare hands, and paint the Washington memorial red with their blood and they still wouldn't vote (D).

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cubfan06 »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:
beantownbubba wrote:
Tequila Cowboy wrote:It's also interesting that Spicer, in his presser two days ago, categorized Manafort's role as "minor" despite being the Chairman of the campaign for 4 months.
Noticed that, didja? The thing about these guys (among many other things) is that they don't do subtle. < sitting back eating popcorn while watching the blood flow from many backs emoji>
This motherfucker has dominoes toppling around him like nothing we've seen since Nixon, his people are blatantly lying for him every chance they get, and yet the Washington Post published a poll today that less than 4% of people who voted for him regret their choice and he's still polling in the high 80's among Republicans. I honestly don't get it.
If he has done only one thing well through his rampant tweets, he has effectively planted a seed of doubt in his supporters towards the media having an agenda towards siding with the left. "Fake News." "Crooked Media." It's been constant and consistent, even though his "truths" have not been. It was a narrative that Fox News has used so well to differentiate themselves from the rest of the market ("fair and no-spin") to create viewers. Many people had chosen their side on President Obama well before he served a single day in office. And Fox News exploited that for viewership. Trump has done an excellent job building off of that narrative of the "crooked media" while speaking in grand divisive inaccuracies. People believe what they want to believe. They don't want to cheer for the losing team. They don't want to admit when they are wrong about a candidate. Some independent's felt like the choices were shit from the start. (Which they were. Although I'd never support that orange ass hat)

Alas, I think the tides are going to change. I regularly check on Fox News and Brietbart to see if they cover certain stories and how they choose to spin them for their readers and viewers behalves. There is a lot of indication in recent days that the stories and evidence surrounding the WH are becoming too great and suspicious to ignore. And once that happens that high 80's is going to wither away with time.

My personal belief is that the noose around him will grow tighter and tighter. This administration's ties to Russia will continue to unravel. And he'll walk away from the office early, with the narrative that "the media and institutional political system has planted lies to work against him." As long as he continues to play that narrative for the segment of his audience that believes what it wants to believe, he will always have that out.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

beantownbubba wrote:
tinnitus photography wrote:i bet that the vote's not gonna happen on Thursday.
Possible, but a course that has its own perils for Ryan and Trump. And speaking of things I don't understand, who schedules a vote on high profile legislation w/out being pretty damn sure he has the votes? Obviously part of the strategy was to ram this bill through quickly but there's a difference between quick and reckless. Whatever happens, it will be interesting.
It is also interesting that they are pushing a near-universally panned bill that clearly isn't ready for prime time. After 7 years and nearly 50 votes to repeal the ACA, they have no vetted replacement. It's pathetic.

At this point, they are willing to repeal, just to say they did it, damn the consequences. Isn't the primary role of an elected official to act in a responsible manner?

Goddammit...now I'm all worked up again. Time to call my Representative....again.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

pearlbeer wrote:
Goddammit...now I'm all worked up again. Time to call my Representative....again.

Well, that didn't go well. The poor intern who told me she just started in January didn't have her facts straight. When I suggested that passing false information to a constituent on behalf of an elected official would represent an ethics violation, I think heard her shit her pants.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

beantownbubba wrote:liberals, who tend to rely on facts and “rational argument”.
Lost me right there.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

LBRod wrote:
beantownbubba wrote:liberals, who tend to rely on facts and “rational argument”.
Lost me right there.
Seriously? Do you not see the quotation marks? Is it not clear from the context that I am referring to "Old Enlightment" thinking of the very kind that Lakoff criticizes? Is it not clear that "rational argument" refers to a style and approach to political conversation not to the specific quality of any particular argument?

Even on your own terms, if you lose the thread if a liberal point of view is referred to as "rational argument" isn't that saying that liberal argument is never rational? Is that really your view?
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

beantownbubba wrote:
LBRod wrote:
beantownbubba wrote:liberals, who tend to rely on facts and “rational argument”.
Lost me right there.
Seriously? Do you not see the quotation marks? Is it not clear from the context that I am referring to "Old Enlightment" thinking of the very kind that Lakoff criticizes? Is it not clear that "rational argument" refers to a style and approach to political conversation not to the specific quality of any particular argument?

Even on your own terms, if you lose the thread if a liberal point of view is referred to as "rational argument" isn't that saying that liberal argument is never rational? Is that really your view?

Oh....I thought the quotation marks represented Alternative facts.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Zip City wrote:https://apnews.com/122ae0b5848345faa881 ... government

So former Trump campaign manager has been conspiring with Russia since 2005?

Smoke....fire....
if nothing else, a decent visual

All of Trump’s Russia Ties, in 7 Charts
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

WTF is Devin Nunes up to???
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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