Coronavirus - COVID-19

[Cole Younger]

<Professor Mode>
People love to talk about rights, or claim they have rights, but actually don't understand the basis for these rights... are they basic (essential for treating person with dignity as an autonomous agent) or derivative (instrumentally valuable for achieving something else we value)? Are they based on a specific moral code or standard? Are they based on religious claim or belief, thus reflective of another mechanism of control, but not required or necessary for ethics or morals (i.e., eating pork or divorce).

In this context, a society is generally based on a set of rules of behavior, which allows social cooperation, usually amounting to a "do or don't" decision. People's acceptance of these rules tends to promote a society's existence and stability, and allow it to endure over generations.

Relativistic thinking (i.e., "I have the right to my opinion") does not fit well into a society, especially a utilitarian society, in which individual rights yield to the aggregate good of the greater masses... this is why we have traffic lights, criminal codes, and other mechanisms of imposing order on what would otherwise be chaos. Sure, people do have the right to blow a stop sign or take a life, but not only are there consequences for engaging in these behaviors, but these violations can infringe on another's rights. Yes, you have a right to protest, but your right to protest ends when it infringes on my right to travel roads that are free of protestors.

Despite one's belief in their rights, it is hard to identify "inalienable" or "self-evident" rights, and constructs such as "liberty" or "pursuit of happiness" are pretty intangible. In addition, rights are characteristics or sets of characteristics that are possessed by all members of the society, not just individuals. This makes it hard to identify the scope or boundaries of the right, or whether there is an entitlement to that right.

So, claiming one has a "right" to something requires more consideration than "it's my right".

</end Professor Mode>

And it still isn’t someone else’s right to make someone else live the way they think they should. I learned a long time ago that you can’t make other people do what you want them to do or what you think might be best for them. It’s just the way it is in this country. Being free insures there will always be people who won’t do what you or I think they should do. There’s really no sense in letting it bother us.

[cortez the killer]

This is a terrible analogy. People have the option of smoking outside and taking public transportation. That article is Karening and not even well thought out Karening.

But the person who wrote it is Susan.

It’s still a terrible analogy. And the criticisms of people this person has an issue with are descriptions of her own tribe. The fit pitching over not being able to make other people do what you want them to do.

I was clearly joking about the name.

I think the analogies are spot-on and good. I think Susan provides some concrete examples of what Professor phungi expounds upon in his well-written post above.

What is this tribe thing you refer to?

[Cole Younger]

But the person who wrote it is Susan.

It’s still a terrible analogy. And the criticisms of people this person has an issue with are descriptions of her own tribe. The fit pitching over not being able to make other people do what you want them to do.

I was clearly joking about the name.

I think the analogies are spot-on and good. I think Susan provides some concrete examples of what Professor phungi expounds upon in his well-written post above.

What is this tribe thing you refer to?

Yeah I knew it was a joke. Tribe is sloppy shorthand for each sides of this issue. Susan’s criticism and I guess by extension Zip’s criticism of people who won’t do what they want them to do is a description of Susan and Zip and those who are having such a time with the idea that they can’t make everyone do what they think they should do. I had no doubt you agreed wholeheartedly with the post.

[boyyourself]

<Professor Mode>
People love to talk about rights, or claim they have rights, but actually don't understand the basis for these rights... are they basic (essential for treating person with dignity as an autonomous agent) or derivative (instrumentally valuable for achieving something else we value)? Are they based on a specific moral code or standard? Are they based on religious claim or belief, thus reflective of another mechanism of control, but not required or necessary for ethics or morals (i.e., eating pork or divorce).

In this context, a society is generally based on a set of rules of behavior, which allows social cooperation, usually amounting to a "do or don't" decision. People's acceptance of these rules tends to promote a society's existence and stability, and allow it to endure over generations.

Relativistic thinking (i.e., "I have the right to my opinion") does not fit well into a society, especially a utilitarian society, in which individual rights yield to the aggregate good of the greater masses... this is why we have traffic lights, criminal codes, and other mechanisms of imposing order on what would otherwise be chaos. Sure, people do have the right to blow a stop sign or take a life, but not only are there consequences for engaging in these behaviors, but these violations can infringe on another's rights. Yes, you have a right to protest, but your right to protest ends when it infringes on my right to travel roads that are free of protestors.

Despite one's belief in their rights, it is hard to identify "inalienable" or "self-evident" rights, and constructs such as "liberty" or "pursuit of happiness" are pretty intangible. In addition, rights are characteristics or sets of characteristics that are possessed by all members of the society, not just individuals. This makes it hard to identify the scope or boundaries of the right, or whether there is an entitlement to that right.

So, claiming one has a "right" to something requires more consideration than "it's my right".

</end Professor Mode>

And it still isn’t someone else’s right to make someone else live the way they think they should. I learned a long time ago that you can’t make other people do what you want them to do or what you think might be best for them. It’s just the way it is in this country. Being free insures there will always be people who won’t do what you or I think they should do. There’s really no sense in letting it bother us.

Phungi I like how you said all of that and agree.
So it also seems fair to be critical of those who think they have a right to tell everyone what their rights are. They don't like losing control of their right to authority.

[Cole Younger]

I’m not one of those ex military guys that thinks everybody should have to serve four years in our military. But there are plenty of those guys out there. They think it is what would be best for the country and would be best for each American on an individual level. They think it would make our country safer. So should they get to make everybody do that? Of course not.

I’m not sure what the post about the military being made to take the vaccine was supposed to prove. We should all have to do everything the military does? We want a military dictatorship? It was a weird post. But part of the reason I’m not so keen on getting this thing and am not taking the flimsy attempts at brow beating by those in favor who say it’s my duty as an American to help everyone stay safe is because of my time in the Marine Corps. I had absolutely no say so over my own body and even though I was sworn to defend the constitution of the United States it did not apply to me. I’ve lost my freedom voluntarily and during that time I had all sorts of things shot into my body and they were not obligated to tell me what they were and I had no choice in the matter. So I really don’t care if anyone thinks I’m shirking my duty as an American and thinks I should just do as I’m told because they say so. If that’s too much for anyone to handle it shouldn’t be and they will just have to learn to get over it. I might get the vaccine at some point. But that’s for me to decide. And I won’t get on here and make an announcement if and when I do.

[phungi]

Phungi I like how you said all of that and agree.
So it also seems fair to be critical of those who think they have a right to tell everyone what their rights are. They don't like losing control of their right to authority.

Therein lies the rub: few people understand what their rights are, or that there really is no justification for their perceived rights.... look no further than the statement/belief that one has control of their "right to authority"... unless you can explain the basis or derivative nature of this right, it's tenants/foundation, limitations, exceptions, etc, it is just rhetoric and an intangible mixture of syllables.

Unless one is taking the "I have a gun and will shoot you if you come on my land and interfere with my right to freedom" level of self-entitlement, there is some Zen in knowing that you live in a society that does not afford you the level of individual rights you believe you are entitled to...

Some call this "altruism" or "cooperation", and others call it being sheep or herd behavior... either way, rights are a complex construct.

BTW, it is "phungi" (lowercase)... I don't like the formality!

[boyyourself]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc-stu ... nated.html


As if I needed less of a reason.
And since trying to pay everyone to accept this miracle didn't work, in other shocking news:

https://news.yahoo.com/biden-says-proba ... 00194.html


So much for, if you're vaxxed, you're protected. Or, "all we are seeing is unvaxxed people come in. And I anyone still trying to claim this is the pandemic of the unvaxxed? Are infections rates the main number we should be focused on still?

They can try to blanket everybody with all these bs restrictions, it's not gonna work. Not everyone is Los Angeles. Where they just Comply comply comply. Following their Hollywood heroes who are cookie cutter across the board pro everything covid. Why? Hollywood liberals are like salt of the earth. Good people. And who you should get your advice from.
The rest of the world is not gonna be so quick to bend over to masking and lockdows.

[Zip City]

How many of those 75% were hospitalized? Right, almost none. The vaccine works

[boyyourself]

Phungi I like how you said all of that and agree.
So it also seems fair to be critical of those who think they have a right to tell everyone what their rights are. They don't like losing control of their right to authority.

Therein lies the rub: few people understand what their rights are, or that there really is no justification for their perceived rights.... look no further than the statement/belief that one has control of their "right to authority"... unless you can explain the basis or derivative nature of this right, it's tenants/foundation, limitations, exceptions, etc, it is just rhetoric and an intangible mixture of syllables.

Unless one is taking the "I have a gun and will shoot you if you come on my land and interfere with my right to freedom" level of self-entitlement, there is some Zen in knowing that you live in a society that does not afford you the level of individual rights you believe you are entitled to...

Some call this "altruism" or "cooperation", and others call it being sheep or herd behavior... either way, rights are a complex construct.

BTW, it is "phungi" (lowercase)... I don't like the formality!

What did you mean about defending one's property and self entitlement? Covid related issues or individually?

There is a convenient store on Ridgway who's employees never wore masks. So I asked them why, they explained the mask mandate was just that. Not a law. So all their employees signed a waiver and no one bothered them. Otherwise Ouray county was strict as hell. That seems to me like a fine example of knowing your rights and rightfully exercising them.
Meanwhile while in Montrose, one county over, the grocery stores never enforced masks and neither did all but a couple restaurants, business like barber shops put up closed signs but kept operating masks. That's just the reality of how a lot of people lived during the first round. This second round of restrictions will be recognized even less in those parts. Meanwhile here in San Miguel county, home of but one covid death, my 14 year old is vaxxed and will be 100 certain to be forced to wear a mask in school all day. All year. So much for the email from the school in had to read that I knew was bullshit that said you wouldn't have to mask if you Vax. Ha. Don't worry ill happily put a mask on to go watch her play volleyball. With likely a mask on.

[Zip City]

And these mandates will continue to make all of our lives miserable, but that’s just the price we pay for PERSONAL FREEDOM

[phungi]

How many of those 75% were hospitalized? Right, almost none. The vaccine works

74% "had the virus in their nose"

4/469 (.0085%) were hospitalized...

274/469 (59%) showed symptoms: cough, headache, sore throat, muscle pain and fever

102/133 (90%) of patients tested had the delta variant.

Yet, across the US, 97% of new hospitalizations and 99.5% of deaths are among unvaccinated individuals, so yes, the vaccine works

[boyyourself]

I don't think I've said it doesn't work. I just don't think it's for everyone. Nor is it a miracle.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Let's have one thing understood:

[phungi]

I don't think I've said it doesn't work. I just don't think it's for everyone. Nor is it a miracle.

the problem is, vaccines are for everyone, otherwise, there will always be a virus (read: polio)... in the absence of self-righteous, entitled, petulant, self-important, mis-informed, pseudo-scientists, we could actually have achieved a nearly 100% vaccination rate, making this a relatively manageable situation.

only in America...

[boyyourself]

And these mandates will continue to make all of our lives miserable, but that’s just the price we pay for PERSONAL FREEDOM

Not at all. Many of us will not be bothered by the mandates at all as they will be ignored completely.

Others don't have such an easy time. You're so cool making fun of personal freedom. Cuba might be a better spot for you than the Midwest.

https://www.youtube.com/

Nothing better than ostrich college students befuddled at why someone would want to live here.
like, omg, and um, like, maybe the Cuban people are like, just like getting false info, probably from like, fox news, they should just like, comply, because it's what's best for everyone. and like, freedom, is really just an anti government sentiment and a false notion anyways.

Right. So when people don't comply to all your demands, which keep turning out to not be true for everyone and all situations, you try to make it seem like enjoying personal freedoms is less virtuous than compliance? Tactics you and them have been using this whole time, literally virtue signaling masking, vaxing, social distancing etc,
Your useless hypoccritical allegedly science based bullshit keeps falling flat.
It's like you can't understand what it means to bs a bunch of people until it falls on deaf ears.
And Zip you've been doing it this whole time. Shaking your fist at those who don't comply to the latest and greatest. How's that working out for ya? How's it working out for biden and the covid brigade? Hey we got a miracle! We will pay you! No ? OK then we shall make you! That's your science based administration hard at work. Errrrrrrrrrrrrrr grasping for strawa as they realize the actually can't puppet the people.

[phungi]

read this Twitter thread, and realize there are implications for your decisions... It is unlikely to make a difference in your egocentric view of our world, and I will stop trying, but please read it

https://twitter.com/Coo_ray/status/1420060053206413314

Dr. J F Curry
@Coo_ray
Jul 27
I’m an Arkansas ER physician. We are at the point warned about a year ago. There are no ICU beds in the state. 4 days ago we called 5 surrounding states looking for ICU beds and we were unsuccessful. (Thread)

In simple terms, because the critical care beds are full of ill Covid patients (who tend to have a slow recovery), there are no beds for the heart attacks, the major traumas, the septic patients…I could go all day.

A few facts:
1) The average delta variant positive person infects 6 people (compared to less than 3 with the original variant)
2) Almost all of the ill pneumonia patients we are seeing are unvaccinated (yes vaccinated people can get it but mostly with milder symptoms)
3) We are seeing a trend of severe disease in younger people

A few requests:
1) Wear a mask! It’s how most of us who spend all day with Covid patients coughing in our faces don’t get it. It’s worked for more than a year. It also keeps you from spreading it.
2) We are in a major surge! Stay away from large unmasked gatherings.
3) The ERs are loaded, there is a wait. Maybe call your doctor first.
4) Get vaccinated! I obsessively love my family and I grabbed each of them by the ear to get their shot as soon as they were eligible. I would never hurt them.


A little snark:
1) If you won’t wear a mask for 20 minutes in Walmart to protect kids who can’t get the vaccine, you would not have hid Anne Frank. Stop saying that! This is your real history hero moment. Step up.
2) Your friend from high school “who has done all the research and knows the truth about vaccines”, hasn’t and doesn’t.
I have 2 degrees and 30 years of experience in medicine and I usually have to read these articles several times to make sure I understand them.

Addendum: I have nothing to promote but getting the vaccine. Also, we have cared for every patient who arrived at our doors. It has been inspiring to see the medical and nursing staff, administration and all the ancillary services make this happen.

[boyyourself]

I don't think I've said it doesn't work. I just don't think it's for everyone. Nor is it a miracle.

the problem is, vaccines are for everyone, otherwise, there will always be a virus (read: polio)... in the absence of self-righteous, entitled, petulant, self-important, mis-informed, pseudo-scientists, we could actually have achieved a nearly 100% vaccination rate, making this a relatively manageable situation.

only in America...

Clearly not. Not everyone is getting it.
So polio is the same as the flu?

And does anyone remember not that long ago, anti vaxxers were mostly crazy ass hippies. Now they are Maga? Not sure how that happened.



Did you know that Africa still has large swaths of people that are completely unvaxxed? I dare you to find info on their overall wellness, all cause mortality rates, or literally anything about them.
That ain't the info "they" want you to see.
Once They Banned Imagine. Why did they ban Imagine?
Oh right. We can't have the people hearing that.
Can't have the people knowing anything about Africans that are unvaxxed, especially the government and social media are I cahoots to get you vaxxed. Plus nobody profits from independence, I doesn't even make a good story, otherwise they'd be turning cameras onto healthy low risk people in this country. It's about lives right? Uh no.
We MUST shine a light on the ill!!!!!! Who cares about why others are not ill and what we can glean from them. No sir. Beneficial? Hell yes. Profitable? Hell no.

[boyyourself]

read this Twitter thread, and realize there are implications for your decisions... It is unlikely to make a difference in your egocentric view of our world, and I will stop trying, but please read it

https://twitter.com/Coo_ray/status/1420060053206413314

Dr. J F Curry
@Coo_ray
Jul 27
I’m an Arkansas ER physician. We are at the point warned about a year ago. There are no ICU beds in the state. 4 days ago we called 5 surrounding states looking for ICU beds and we were unsuccessful. (Thread)

In simple terms, because the critical care beds are full of ill Covid patients (who tend to have a slow recovery), there are no beds for the heart attacks, the major traumas, the septic patients…I could go all day.

A few facts:
1) The average delta variant positive person infects 6 people (compared to less than 3 with the original variant)
2) Almost all of the ill pneumonia patients we are seeing are unvaccinated (yes vaccinated people can get it but mostly with milder symptoms)
3) We are seeing a trend of severe disease in younger people

A few requests:
1) Wear a mask! It’s how most of us who spend all day with Covid patients coughing in our faces don’t get it. It’s worked for more than a year. It also keeps you from spreading it.
2) We are in a major surge! Stay away from large unmasked gatherings.
3) The ERs are loaded, there is a wait. Maybe call your doctor first.
4) Get vaccinated! I obsessively love my family and I grabbed each of them by the ear to get their shot as soon as they were eligible. I would never hurt them.


A little snark:
1) If you won’t wear a mask for 20 minutes in Walmart to protect kids who can’t get the vaccine, you would not have hid Anne Frank. Stop saying that! This is your real history hero moment. Step up.
2) Your friend from high school “who has done all the research and knows the truth about vaccines”, hasn’t and doesn’t.
I have 2 degrees and 30 years of experience in medicine and I usually have to read these articles several times to make sure I understand them.

Addendum: I have nothing to promote but getting the vaccine. Also, we have cared for every patient who arrived at our doors. It has been inspiring to see the medical and nursing staff, administration and all the ancillary services make this happen.

You likely won't stop trying although you just said you would. And it's incredible that you can define me as having an egocentric view of the world, as if to say you're the king of determining whos righteous and who ain't, then proceed to lecture about a mask? Not so ironically you also then can't imagine how these tactics don't work. And they are cookie cutter across the board tactics that have been trendy all covid.

[Zip City]

I think egocentric is the perfect word, actually

Responding to phungi’s post without considering the content is a prefect example

[Cole Younger]

Why are flu shots not mandated? Lots of people die from the flu. Do those of you who want to hard talk everyone who hasn’t gotten the Covid vaccine get a flu shot every year? If not why not?

Regardless of what anyone wants to say and how far you may get on your high horse and how much moralizing you do about this issue the fact remains there wouldn’t be so much mistrust and uncertainty about this if the messaging hadn’t been so comically bad and those in officialdom had just been up front and explained there wouldn’t be any way to have a lot of information about the best course of action until more time passed. Instead what we got was whiplash inducing wild rocking back and forth. So you can get mad if you want to that everybody won’t just shut up and do what you want them to do but you’re being unreasonable.

And mandates aren’t going to have any teeth if they even happen. Seems like if there was any way to mandate this it would have been pounced on by now. Especially considering the outrage from those who want one.

[Cole Younger]

read this Twitter thread, and realize there are implications for your decisions... It is unlikely to make a difference in your egocentric view of our world, and I will stop trying, but please read it

https://twitter.com/Coo_ray/status/1420060053206413314

Dr. J F Curry
@Coo_ray
Jul 27
I’m an Arkansas ER physician. We are at the point warned about a year ago. There are no ICU beds in the state. 4 days ago we called 5 surrounding states looking for ICU beds and we were unsuccessful. (Thread)

In simple terms, because the critical care beds are full of ill Covid patients (who tend to have a slow recovery), there are no beds for the heart attacks, the major traumas, the septic patients…I could go all day.

A few facts:
1) The average delta variant positive person infects 6 people (compared to less than 3 with the original variant)
2) Almost all of the ill pneumonia patients we are seeing are unvaccinated (yes vaccinated people can get it but mostly with milder symptoms)
3) We are seeing a trend of severe disease in younger people

A few requests:
1) Wear a mask! It’s how most of us who spend all day with Covid patients coughing in our faces don’t get it. It’s worked for more than a year. It also keeps you from spreading it.
2) We are in a major surge! Stay away from large unmasked gatherings.
3) The ERs are loaded, there is a wait. Maybe call your doctor first.
4) Get vaccinated! I obsessively love my family and I grabbed each of them by the ear to get their shot as soon as they were eligible. I would never hurt them.


A little snark:
1) If you won’t wear a mask for 20 minutes in Walmart to protect kids who can’t get the vaccine, you would not have hid Anne Frank. Stop saying that! This is your real history hero moment. Step up.
2) Your friend from high school “who has done all the research and knows the truth about vaccines”, hasn’t and doesn’t.
I have 2 degrees and 30 years of experience in medicine and I usually have to read these articles several times to make sure I understand them.

Addendum: I have nothing to promote but getting the vaccine. Also, we have cared for every patient who arrived at our doors. It has been inspiring to see the medical and nursing staff, administration and all the ancillary services make this happen.

You likely won't stop trying although you just said you would. And it's incredible that you can define me as having an egocentric view of the world, as if to say you're the king of determining whos righteous and who ain't, then proceed to lecture about a mask? Not so ironically you also then can't imagine how these tactics don't work. And they are cookie cutter across the board tactics that have been trendy all covid.

Scolding someone is the quickest way to get them to not listen to you and that’s true of almost everyone regardless of politics, social class, or age. Nobody likes to have someone act like they are going to straighten them out. The internet is the worst place in the world to talk about things like this. I’ve met phungi and he’s a good guy. I think Zip is probably a good guy. I’d be willing to bet. Talking about this on a message board is just about going to lead to something that does nobody any good in the end. Only reason I’m back in here now is because I’m taking a break from cutting my grass and it’s Africa hot out there and I’m putting off finishing.

[beantownbubba]

And does anyone remember not that long ago, anti vaxxers were mostly crazy ass hippies. Now they are Maga? Not sure how that happened.

Let me tweak that slightly:

And does anyone remember not that long ago, anti vaxxers were mostly marginalized tin hat wearing folks including the far edges of non mainstream religions, survivalists and crazy ass hippies? Now they are Maga? Not sure how that happened.

Except I am sure how that happened. See my previous post about the politicization of medicine.

[beantownbubba]

the fact remains there wouldn’t be so much mistrust and uncertainty about this if the messaging hadn’t been so comically bad and those in officialdom had just been up front and explained there wouldn’t be any way to have a lot of information about the best course of action until more time passed. Instead what we got was whiplash inducing wild rocking back and forth.

This is a crucially important point and explains a fair amount up to a point. But take it one step further: More time has passed. For the most part those charged w/ the responsibility for these things say they now know what works and what doesn't. At what point does continuing to refuse to believe because they were wrong before evolve from justified experience to stubbornness? Have we reached that point? Those are not rhetorical questions. I'm assuming skepticism was at the very least a reasonable response to the "comedy." I'm also suggesting that the comedy is over. Does that require a different response? Or is the comedy not over? Is the distrust still justified? Note that for this purpose I am distinguishing between "general distrust of government and authority" which we all share to some degree and isn't going away (but doesn't interfere with lots of every day activities) and specific distrust about the virus and pandemic.

Edited for grammar/typo.

[Cole Younger]

the fact remains there wouldn’t be so much mistrust and uncertainty about this if the messaging hadn’t been so comically bad and those in officialdom had just been up front and explained there wouldn’t be any way to have a lot of information about the best course of action until more time passed. Instead what we got was whiplash inducing wild rocking back and forth.

This is a crucially important point and explains a fair amount up to a point. But take it one step further: More time has passed. For the most part those charged w/ the responsibility for these things say they now know what works and what doesn't. At what point does continuing to refuse to believe because they were wrong before evolve from justified experience to stubbornness? Have we reached that point? Those are not rhetorical questions. I'm assuming skepticism was at the very least a reasonable response to the "comedy." I'm also suggesting that the comedy is over. Does that require a different response? Or is the comedy not over? Is the distrust still justified? Note that for this purpose I am distinguishing between "general distrust of government and authority" which we all share to some degree and isn't going away (but doesn't interfere with lots of every day activities and specific distrust about the virus and pandemic.

No I think the mistrust lingers. And more people try to threaten and/or coerce other people to do as they think they should human nature dictates they will just dig in farther. If Orange Man was still president and was on TV everyday saying crazy things about how he was going to make everybody get the vaccine this board would be on fire with people saying they weren’t going to do it.

I don’t know how unvaccinated people are a threat to vaccinated people if the vaccine is effective. Everyone should get the vaccine so nobody will get the virus because the vaccine works. And if everyone doesn’t get it they are a danger to those who have gotten the vaccine because the vaccine...works?

[Zip City]

Crazy at it seems, some of us vaccinated people actually care what happens to the unvaccinated. If it were as simple as "every man for himself", then sure, I got the shot, and fuck you to everyone who didn't. Some of us (thankfully) aren't wired that way.

And that doesn't even begin to touch on all of the tangential misery that a constantly evolving/spreading virus rains down on all of us. After teaching three semesters on Zoom (or fully masked in a spread out class room), I was hoping that this coming semester would see us back to normal. But no, we can't have nice things in America, so it's another semester (or year?) of masking and distancing. My teaching and my classes are now going to suffer, not from my actions, but from the inactions of others.

I've said it before, but it's extremely ironic that those who want masks and distancing and mandates to go away the most are also the ones who refuse to do the ONE THING that will make those things go away...

[chuckrh]

Isn't it sad when cousins marry? Sadly, I can't take credit for that line, stolen from a Martin Mull comedy record in the 70s. Credit where credit is due. Appropriate to the discussion though.

[beantownbubba]

Why are flu shots not mandated?

I meant to say earlier that I think this is a very good question. I have a couple of thoughts on the matter but with only a low confidence level. Does anyone actually know? A quick google search was less than edifying.

No I think the mistrust lingers. And more people try to threaten and/or coerce other people to do as they think they should human nature dictates they will just dig in farther.

Thanks for the response.

Based on the latest news reports, it seems that only a personal belief in the danger of the virus (both getting it and the consequences) will lead people to conclude that either the vaccine works or that they might as well get it anyway because it can't hurt (itself a change in perspective, at least for some). Or as some would put it, fear is a great motivator.

[boyyourself]

I think egocentric is the perfect word, actually

Responding to phungi’s post without considering the content is a prefect example

Oh Zip im having a good time being your main source of entertainment. What do you do for fun again? Funny how those with no lives call others egocentric and also advocate for lockdowns. Literally funny.

[boyyourself]

And does anyone remember not that long ago, anti vaxxers were mostly crazy ass hippies. Now they are Maga? Not sure how that happened.

Let me tweak that slightly:

And does anyone remember not that long ago, anti vaxxers were mostly marginalized tin hat wearing folks including the far edges of non mainstream religions, survivalists and crazy ass hippies? Now they are Maga? Not sure how that happened.

Except I am sure how that happened. See my previous post about the politicization of medicine.

That's a nice tweak

[boyyourself]

Crazy at it seems, some of us vaccinated people actually care what happens to the unvaccinated. If it were as simple as "every man for himself", then sure, I got the shot, and fuck you to everyone who didn't. Some of us (thankfully) aren't wired that way.

And that doesn't even begin to touch on all of the tangential misery that a constantly evolving/spreading virus rains down on all of us. After teaching three semesters on Zoom (or fully masked in a spread out class room), I was hoping that this coming semester would see us back to normal. But no, we can't have nice things in America, so it's another semester (or year?) of masking and distancing. My teaching and my classes are now going to suffer, not from my actions, but from the inactions of others.

I've said it before, but it's extremely ironic that those who want masks and distancing and mandates to go away the most are also the ones who refuse to do the ONE THING that will make those things go away...

Oh I know sweetie. It's everyone else's fault. Always will be. And you keep on coming up with new ways to describe yourself as separate from the bad guys. Stay focused on the righteous path man. Us lost souls will be out here ignoring everything you just said.