Coronavirus - COVID-19

[boyyourself]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XGXRvDT2k8I


This guy telling me that there’s a price to pay if I don’t do what he says.
But maybe since then he’s gotten thoughtful, original, and trustworthy. My bs gauge says otherwise.
Maybe I’m just not informed enough to be armed with the correct info to trust him.

[Mundane Mayhem]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XGXRvDT2k8I


This guy telling me that there’s a price to pay if I don’t do what he says.
But maybe since then he’s gotten thoughtful, original, and trustworthy. My bs gauge says otherwise.
Maybe I’m just not informed enough to be armed with the correct info to trust him.

I wish we lived in a world where plagiarism were still disqualifying, but the bar is in the fucking basement (thanks in no small part to the last guy).

I'm a Bernie supporter and have no particular affinity for Joe Biden, though I've been somewhat pleasantly surprised thus far on domestic issues.

I assume what Joe Biden is referring to is the large number of private businesses, other countries, states, etc. that may start to require vaccination so as to not endanger their staff and other customers. Businesses (like, say, rock clubs) are, of course, well within their rights to do so. But we will see. In the meantime, people should get vaccinated because it's the responsible thing to do, or because the government will enter them in a million-dollar lottery, or give them $100, or whatever it takes to keep the next variant from being "the big one."

[Mundane Mayhem]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XGXRvDT2k8I


This guy telling me that there’s a price to pay if I don’t do what he says.
But maybe since then he’s gotten thoughtful, original, and trustworthy. My bs gauge says otherwise.
Maybe I’m just not informed enough to be armed with the correct info to trust him.

I wish we lived in a world where plagiarism were still disqualifying, but the bar is in the fucking basement (thanks in no small part to the last guy).

I'm a Bernie supporter and have no particular affinity for Joe Biden, though I've been somewhat pleasantly surprised thus far on domestic issues.

I assume what Joe Biden is referring to is the large number of private businesses, other countries, states, etc. that may start to require vaccination so as to not endanger their staff and other customers. Businesses (like, say, rock clubs) are, of course, well within their rights to do so. But we will see. In the meantime, people should get vaccinated because it's the responsible thing to do, or because the government will enter them in a million-dollar lottery, or give them $100, or whatever it takes to keep the next variant from being "the big one."

I just read the speech in question. It was pretty boring. But given the context, the "price" he's referring to the unvaccinated paying is very clearly "contracting COVID-19." Yawn. Even more boring than I suspected.

[boyyourself]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XGXRvDT2k8I


This guy telling me that there’s a price to pay if I don’t do what he says.
But maybe since then he’s gotten thoughtful, original, and trustworthy. My bs gauge says otherwise.
Maybe I’m just not informed enough to be armed with the correct info to trust him.

I wish we lived in a world where plagiarism were still disqualifying, but the bar is in the fucking basement (thanks in no small part to the last guy).

I'm a Bernie supporter and have no particular affinity for Joe Biden, though I've been somewhat pleasantly surprised thus far on domestic issues.

I assume what Joe Biden is referring to is the large number of private businesses, other countries, states, etc. that may start to require vaccination so as to not endanger their staff and other customers. Businesses (like, say, rock clubs) are, of course, well within their rights to do so. But we will see. In the meantime, people should get vaccinated because it's the responsible thing to do, or because the government will enter them in a million-dollar lottery, or give them $100, or whatever it takes to keep the next variant from being "the big one."

I thought the whole point behind getting the vaccine was so that now you are immune.
But the narrative is that you should get it protect others? If you’re scared of being affected my COVID then shouldn’t you get the vaccine and then not be worried about infection?

Just wear a mask. Just get the vaccine. Just shut schools. Just shut live music venues down forever. Just roll out a stimulus package. Just trust our words. It’s that simple.
Oh ok.

[boyyourself]

Texas just reported zero COVID related deaths.
Fewest cases in over thirteen months.
Lowest hospitalizations in 11 months.
Lowest 7 day COVID new case rate.

They ended all COVID restrictions ten weeks ago.

You think if Biden or Sir Fauci saw these numbers they would come out and admit that calling Texas Neanderthal 10 weeks ago was a blatant thinking error? No. Because it’s the feelings over facts administration. The ride with me and my bs or else administration.
This is exhibit A of why it’s dangerous to cow to the narrative. And Exhibit A of what happens when you let people decide for themselves.
Oh my goodness Texas has reached heard immunity and is doing fine. Despite bucking the almighty “science” that everyone had all the believers feeling more intelligent for looking down on those dummies in the south region who never really did stop socializing and many never wore masks and have not been vaxxed and this is what it got them.....out through the other end quicker than anyone.

[Mundane Mayhem]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XGXRvDT2k8I


This guy telling me that there’s a price to pay if I don’t do what he says.
But maybe since then he’s gotten thoughtful, original, and trustworthy. My bs gauge says otherwise.
Maybe I’m just not informed enough to be armed with the correct info to trust him.

I wish we lived in a world where plagiarism were still disqualifying, but the bar is in the fucking basement (thanks in no small part to the last guy).

I'm a Bernie supporter and have no particular affinity for Joe Biden, though I've been somewhat pleasantly surprised thus far on domestic issues.

I assume what Joe Biden is referring to is the large number of private businesses, other countries, states, etc. that may start to require vaccination so as to not endanger their staff and other customers. Businesses (like, say, rock clubs) are, of course, well within their rights to do so. But we will see. In the meantime, people should get vaccinated because it's the responsible thing to do, or because the government will enter them in a million-dollar lottery, or give them $100, or whatever it takes to keep the next variant from being "the big one."

I thought the whole point behind getting the vaccine was so that now you are immune.
But the narrative is that you should get it protect others? If you’re scared of being affected my COVID then shouldn’t you get the vaccine and then not be worried about infection?

Just wear a mask. Just get the vaccine. Just shut schools. Just shut live music venues down forever. Just roll out a stimulus package. Just trust our words. It’s that simple.
Oh ok.

A few things:

1) The two most prevalent vaccines are somewhere in the vicinity of 95% to 96% effective, which is not 100%. However, they are virtually 100% effective at preventing serious illness and death. But if you catch a mild case, you could still contribute to community spread to, say, someone who isn't vaccinated and might get seriously sick or die. And that community spread increases the possibility that new variants will evolve that might "break through" the vaccine, be more contagious, more lethal, etc.

2) Yes, the "narrative" has ALWAYS been largely about protecting others for most of us, rather than protecting ourselves. I'm in my 30s and have a resting heart rate in the 40s. I'd almost certainly be fine if I got the virus. But there's a good reason that the target for vaccination is "herd immunity." Like it or not, you're part of the herd. We should all be aiming to protect each other. That's why I wore a mask and got a vaccine.

Look, Biden is not a good speaker. This "pay the price" thing is probably not messaging I'd have used. To your point, people who are afraid of getting COVID are already vaccinated at this point. I'd have stuck (as he did elsewhere in the speech) to civic duty, patriotism, and public health rather than fear or "paying the price."

What I don't understand is how one can look at the data--COVID rates dropping in all 50 states, deaths down, etc.--and not think of the vaccines as an absolute fucking miracle. What else do you attribute it to? The idea of not wanting to be part of something that is very clearly working is somewhat astounding to me.

[Mundane Mayhem]

Texas just reported zero COVID related deaths.
Fewest cases in over thirteen months.
Lowest hospitalizations in 11 months.
Lowest 7 day COVID new case rate.

They ended all COVID restrictions ten weeks ago.

You think if Biden or Sir Fauci saw these numbers they would come out and admit that calling Texas Neanderthal 10 weeks ago was a blatant thinking error? No. Because it’s the feelings over facts administration. The ride with me and my bs or else administration.
This is exhibit A of why it’s dangerous to cow to the narrative. And Exhibit A of what happens when you let people decide for themselves.
Oh my goodness Texas has reached heard immunity and is doing fine. Despite bucking the almighty “science” that everyone had all the believers feeling more intelligent for looking down on those dummies in the south region who never really did stop socializing and many never wore masks and have not been vaxxed and this is what it got them.....out through the other end quicker than anyone.

Texas has absolutely not reached herd immunity. No state has, in all likelihood. Over the past 14 days, Texas cases are down 27% (national average 36%). Hospitalizations down 15% (national average 21%).

33% of Texans are fully vaccinated, just a bit below the national average of 38%. You don't think those vaccines have played a role in the decreasing numbers?

[LBRod]

Texas has absolutely not reached herd immunity. No state has, in all likelihood. Over the past 14 days, Texas cases are down 27% (national average 36%). Hospitalizations down 15% (national average 21%).

33% of Texans are fully vaccinated, just a bit below the national average of 38%. You don't think those vaccines have played a role in the decreasing numbers?

Vaccines are part of reaching herd immunity, but not the only part. Nobody knows for sure what the threshold for herd immunity is in this case, so you shouldn't use "absolutely not."

[Mundane Mayhem]

Texas has absolutely not reached herd immunity. No state has, in all likelihood. Over the past 14 days, Texas cases are down 27% (national average 36%). Hospitalizations down 15% (national average 21%).

33% of Texans are fully vaccinated, just a bit below the national average of 38%. You don't think those vaccines have played a role in the decreasing numbers?

Vaccines are part of reaching herd immunity, but not the only part. Nobody knows for sure what the threshold for herd immunity is in this case, so you shouldn't use "absolutely not."

Yes, vaccines are part of herd immunity, the other part being immunity conferred by natural infection. Children are part of the herd immunity calculation, and no one under 12 is vaccinated. I feel pretty confident in my statement, but I will amend: it is extremely (extremely, extremely, extremely) unlikely that Texas has reached herd immunity. Better?

[LBRod]

Getting better all the time.

[Mundane Mayhem]

Getting better all the time.

All anyone can hope for.

Noticed you didn't take issue with boyyourself's baseless claim that Texas has reached herd immunity, but we'll chalk that up to recency.

[LBRod]

Fair enough, though he didn't say absolutely.

[Mundane Mayhem]

Fair enough, though he didn't say absolutely.

While we're nitpicking, I said, "no one under 12 is vaccinated" when what I should have said is "no one under 12 who isn't participating in a clinical trial has legally received a vaccine."

I happen to teach the LSAT in my spare time.

[boyyourself]

Texas just reported zero COVID related deaths.
Fewest cases in over thirteen months.
Lowest hospitalizations in 11 months.
Lowest 7 day COVID new case rate.

They ended all COVID restrictions ten weeks ago.

You think if Biden or Sir Fauci saw these numbers they would come out and admit that calling Texas Neanderthal 10 weeks ago was a blatant thinking error? No. Because it’s the feelings over facts administration. The ride with me and my bs or else administration.
This is exhibit A of why it’s dangerous to cow to the narrative. And Exhibit A of what happens when you let people decide for themselves.
Oh my goodness Texas has reached heard immunity and is doing fine. Despite bucking the almighty “science” that everyone had all the believers feeling more intelligent for looking down on those dummies in the south region who never really did stop socializing and many never wore masks and have not been vaxxed and this is what it got them.....out through the other end quicker than anyone.

Texas has absolutely not reached herd immunity. No state has, in all likelihood. Over the past 14 days, Texas cases are down 27% (national average 36%). Hospitalizations down 15% (national average 21%).

33% of Texans are fully vaccinated, just a bit below the national average of 38%. You don't think those vaccines have played a role in the decreasing numbers?

Perhaps. But The goal post keeps changing on what is herd immunity and how to reach it. Obviously vaxx corporations (and for some reason our government, want you to think vaccines are the only way to go for that. Which is just not true and not what’s happening) Lockdowns etc likely slowed that process down. It’s not as if it’s not everywhere at this point.

I have lots of family in the panhandle and they all got it back in December. All sick for a few days then fine. Brother and his wife and their kids. Mom and dad and two uncles in their 70s.
91 year old grandma COVID pneumonia which was a little rough but she’s fine.
None of them are getting vaxxed. None of them ever wore masks. I’m not virtue signaling here a lot of living is undoubtedly luck and chance, and I’m blessed at damn near 50 to have both my parents and a grandma. I’m just relating examples of what’s going on and what I see.

Also some things aren’t that coincidental. I look at my 91 year old grandma and think it’s important to call something other than luck on why she survived COVID pneumonia and is still going strong.
An upbringing outside and in the dirt. (Yes compost. It’s that simple). A kid who milked cows and other work and got strong. Has a strong grip to this day. Family oriented and social and never once thought about not seeing family for fear that it may take her out. She couldn’t phathom that.

This is real science to me. And IMO if media and or government cared about the general wellness of our population, they’d be running story after story on people like this of which there are many.
Sunshine and dirt and lots of human interaction is, as it turns out, what builds a strong immune system.
If you aren’t aware of these things as a parent and you’re raising a child in a sterile environment and isolated from sharing germs with other humans, as far as I can tell, this a recipe for illness and now you’re counting on medicine and someone else to be in charge of you. Which is obviously what they want is return customers.
So the people that are reliant upon my illness is who I should trust in regards to my own personal safety and wellness? No thanks.

[boyyourself]

Getting better all the time.

All anyone can hope for.

Noticed you didn't take issue with boyyourself's baseless claim that Texas has reached herd immunity, but we'll chalk that up to recency.

I’m not gonna stand on Steve earles coffe table and stand by my statement that Texas reached heard immunity. But who does decide when?
I think in a lot of communities they have. Again, where in from, almost everyone had it by December and no new cases in awhile abs no deaths in long time. Would that not be heard immunity?

[Mundane Mayhem]

Getting better all the time.

All anyone can hope for.

Noticed you didn't take issue with boyyourself's baseless claim that Texas has reached herd immunity, but we'll chalk that up to recency.

I’m not gonna stand on Steve earles coffe table and stand by my statement that Texas reached heard immunity. But who does decide when?
I think in a lot of communities they have. Again, where in from, almost everyone had it by December and no new cases in awhile abs no deaths in long time. Would that not be heard immunity?

Perhaps. It's true that it might be useful to think of herd immunity on a local level. The other thing here is population density. Obviously people are in closer quarters in cities than in rural areas. And yeah, we don't actually know whether herd immunity is 70 or 80 or 90 percent. Most experts are now saying that whatever the case, we're unlikely to get there at this point.

I'm genuinely thrilled that your family came through COVID-19 relatively unscathed. I just always go back to the old chestnut that the plural of anecdote is not data. Your 91-year-old grandmother survived, but so did most older folks who got infected. That doesn't mean that, in aggregate, older folks didn't have a significantly higher risk of dying. It's all relative, and it's due to those aggregate effects that nearly 600,000 Americans have lost their lives. Maybe your grandmother survived because of her getting her hands in the dirt, and maybe not. We'll just focus on being thankful she survived.

My point is that someone else's 91-year-old grandmother, who also got her hands dirty, didn't. And neither did a very small percentage of younger folks. Some of whom probably led "sterilized" lives, and some of whom didn't. Each of those deaths devastated a family and a community and cost the world someone we'll never get back.

You'll get no argument from me that in some settings, we've taken sterility too far. We've all seen those claims about the immune systems of babies whose moms wipe off the pacifier versus those who don't. I'm also, generally, pretty skeptical of Big Pharma, and their treatment of the Global South relative to these vaccines is a good example of why.

But all that being said, vaccines are miracles. We've all but eradicated polio, measles, smallpox, etc. (although vaccine hesitancy has led to some of these making a comeback). I don't have to trust Pfizer or Moderna any further than I can throw them, and I reserve the right to criticize them on a case-by-case basis. But I'm grateful for the role they played in helping us get this terrible disease under control.

[boyyourself]

I hear that. But I also wouldn’t compare this virus to some of the other things you mentioned.
And my frustrations are founded on the fact that
Pharma is the driving narrative instead of how to not be high risk. There is real science behind how to not be high risk. Like anything in nature.
And obviously it’s frustrating that all cause mortalities of which many are preventable get swept under the rug.
The danger in that is when the next virus comes around no worries.....we will just lock down mask up and vaccinate. Problem solved. And this seems like a long term formula for a population getting weaker and sicker. How’s that good?
This is basically just forgetting about the long term general wellness of the people and instead going with perpetual band aiding.

[Mundane Mayhem]

I hear that. But I also wouldn’t compare this virus to some of the other things you mentioned.
And my frustrations are founded on the fact that
Pharma is the driving narrative instead of how to not be high risk. There is real science behind how to not be high risk. Like anything in nature.
And obviously it’s frustrating that all cause mortalities of which many are preventable get swept under the rug.
The danger in that is when the next virus comes around no worries.....we will just lock down mask up and vaccinate. Problem solved. And this seems like a long term formula for a population getting weaker and sicker. How’s that good?
This is basically just forgetting about the long term general wellness of the people and instead going with perpetual band aiding.

The point about COVID not being comparable to some of those other things is a fair one. Measles might be the best analogue (of the diseases I mentioned), as it has a pretty low death rate and people will generally recover. But measles is also more contagious than COVID (at least the variants of COVID we've encountered thus far). Although per Wikipedia, 72% of polio cases are asymptomatic, and another 24% cause only minor disease.

I agree we should have a broader conversation about wellness and what that entails. But we can do that AND take the short-term measures we need to in order to keep this virus from causing any more preventable deaths.

[Zip City]

I remember when Michelle Obama tried making healthier eating her platform and was met with a giant round of “FUCK YOU I’LL EAT WHAT I WANT” so I’m not sure why you’d think ANY government program around healthier living would gain any traction.

[boyyourself]

I remember when Michelle Obama tried making healthier eating her platform and was met with a giant round of “FUCK YOU I’LL EAT WHAT I WANT” so I’m not sure why you’d think ANY government program around healthier living would gain any traction.

I’m not advocating for that.

[Zip City]

I remember when Michelle Obama tried making healthier eating her platform and was met with a giant round of “FUCK YOU I’LL EAT WHAT I WANT” so I’m not sure why you’d think ANY government program around healthier living would gain any traction.

I’m not advocating for that.

Then I'm lost as to what you want. You don't want the government pushing vaccines (because the REAL problem is bad health) but you also don't want them pushing good health?

[boyyourself]

I remember when Michelle Obama tried making healthier eating her platform and was met with a giant round of “FUCK YOU I’LL EAT WHAT I WANT” so I’m not sure why you’d think ANY government program around healthier living would gain any traction.

I’m not advocating for that.

Then I'm lost as to what you want. You don't want the government pushing vaccines (because the REAL problem is bad health) but you also don't want them pushing good health?

It’s a discussion forum. Which to me is a place for discussion in which to work through issues or just comment if you want or not participate.

[LBRod]

I remember when Michelle Obama tried making healthier eating her platform and was met with a giant round of “FUCK YOU I’LL EAT WHAT I WANT” so I’m not sure why you’d think ANY government program around healthier living would gain any traction.

I’m not advocating for that.

Then I'm lost as to what you want. You don't want the government pushing vaccines (because the REAL problem is bad health) but you also don't want them pushing good health?

I don't want the government pushing anything, or anyone.

[beantownbubba]

I don't want the government pushing anything, or anyone.

So instead of experiencing a miraculous renaissance, it could still be nighttime dark at noon in Pittsburgh and people would be still be dying at 50 in large numbers?

So instead of traffic lights and stop signs we'd have... what, exactly? And if some private entrepreneurs built their own traffic controlled streets, how would they enforce compliance? But think of all the money we'd save not having to pay to ride bumper cars at the fair yet still having all the excitement every day.

No seatbelts, no crashworthiness standards at all. But no worries because just like airplane manufacturers, car manufacturers would have incentives to make safe products except even with those incentives AND significant regulation, Boeing fucks up royally once every few years and we know how safe and reliable cars were before Ralph Nader wrote that book, right?

Leaded gasoline would make a huge comeback along w/ lead paint, which I guess is a good thing because babies do find those paint chips to be delicious

No police and no criminal law so everyone would be responsible for enforcing their own sense of justice using their own level of proof to decide who to shoot. Rich people would no doubt pay for their own police forces, which unconstrained by either law or policy could shoot whoever they wanted whenever they wanted. I feel safer already.

No way to enforce civil judgments even if private courts purported to decide cases, so more private enforcement leading to a situation somewhere between complete lack of enforceability and total chaos

Housing left solely to market forces so every city and town would have its own tent city if they're lucky and cardboard shacks if they weren't, just like Soweto and the favellas in Rio. And no zoning of course so good luck stopping that coal mine on the property next door and say goodbye to sunny summer barbecues in your backyard because your neighbor decided your neighborhood was an excellent spot to build a 30 or 50 story building.

Public transportation left to the private market which means there would be no public transportation which means large swaths of the population would be trapped where they live with no way to get to jobs even if they wanted to so even favellas would be a step up from the kinds of ghettoes that would ensue

Anybody and everybody could call themselves a doctor or a lawyer or a native american chief. Of course the better practitioners would form private associations to certify standards and we all know how tough professionals are on themselves. And I wonder what would stop anyone from hanging a shingle with their own seal of approval which looks just like the one the AMA or ABA issue?

Without patent and copyright protection, who would risk investment in innovation? The pace of innovation would slow to that of the 1600's, and we'd still be picking cotton by hand and shitting in outhouses. Or the streets.

We can all experience the joys of living in terror of polio and smallpox and the excitement of playing thalidomide roulette every time we swallow a pill or give one to our children

Presumably people would pay privately for fire insurance but if one's neighbor chooses to gamble, your house goes up along with theirs

Education would be left to private industry meaning, what?, 20, 30 or 50 percent of the population illiterate? And who knows what the other 50% would be taught? I guess we should all be relieved to know that crazy stuff like evolution would no longer be taught in large swaths of the country.

Instead of the occasional Great Recession we could have recurring depressions caused by market manipulations just like the 1870's, At least they would be predictable.

But wait. We wouldn't even have currency so who knows what the economy would look like. Some form of barter economy I guess so we can all party like its 1499.

We wouldn't have a clue about what's in our food, except we can be virtually certain it would include mouse droppings, pieces of rat, human snot and a bunch of other delicacies. Or of course we could all grow and make our own food so we could have an economy just like the Middle Ages

It would be fun to walk on Lake Erie, though.

[LBRod]

I said I don't like being pushed. Your response seems excessive. Lighten up, Bubba.
Keeping it to the subject at hand, I got vaccinated as soon as possible. No pushing needed.

I'm not going to respond to every point you made, because I didn't read the whole post.
It's too early, and I'm in too good of a mood to wade through that right now.

[beantownbubba]

I said I don't like being pushed. Your response seems excessive. Lighten up, Bubba.
Keeping it to the subject at hand, I got vaccinated as soon as possible. No pushing needed.

I'm not going to respond to every point you made, because I didn't read the whole post.
It's too early, and I'm in too good of a mood to wade through that right now.

Fair enough. Skip the post, keep the good mood.

[LBRod]

We will have a drink or two and solve the world's problems in approximately 234 days.

[boyyourself]

I don't want the government pushing anything, or anyone.

So instead of experiencing a miraculous renaissance, it could still be nighttime dark at noon in Pittsburgh and people would be still be dying at 50 in large numbers?

So instead of traffic lights and stop signs we'd have... what, exactly? And if some private entrepreneurs built their own traffic controlled streets, how would they enforce compliance? But think of all the money we'd save not having to pay to ride bumper cars at the fair yet still having all the excitement every day.

No seatbelts, no crashworthiness standards at all. But no worries because just like airplane manufacturers, car manufacturers would have incentives to make safe products except even with those incentives AND significant regulation, Boeing fucks up royally once every few years and we know how safe and reliable cars were before Ralph Nader wrote that book, right?

Leaded gasoline would make a huge comeback along w/ lead paint, which I guess is a good thing because babies do find those paint chips to be delicious

No police and no criminal law so everyone would be responsible for enforcing their own sense of justice using their own level of proof to decide who to shoot. Rich people would no doubt pay for their own police forces, which unconstrained by either law or policy could shoot whoever they wanted whenever they wanted. I feel safer already.

No way to enforce civil judgments even if private courts purported to decide cases, so more private enforcement leading to a situation somewhere between complete lack of enforceability and total chaos

Housing left solely to market forces so every city and town would have its own tent city if they're lucky and cardboard shacks if they weren't, just like Soweto and the favellas in Rio. And no zoning of course so good luck stopping that coal mine on the property next door and say goodbye to sunny summer barbecues in your backyard because your neighbor decided your neighborhood was an excellent spot to build a 30 or 50 story building.

Public transportation left to the private market which means there would be no public transportation which means large swaths of the population would be trapped where they live with no way to get to jobs even if they wanted to so even favellas would be a step up from the kinds of ghettoes that would ensue

Anybody and everybody could call themselves a doctor or a lawyer or a native american chief. Of course the better practitioners would form private associations to certify standards and we all know how tough professionals are on themselves. And I wonder what would stop anyone from hanging a shingle with their own seal of approval which looks just like the one the AMA or ABA issue?

Without patent and copyright protection, who would risk investment in innovation? The pace of innovation would slow to that of the 1600's, and we'd still be picking cotton by hand and shitting in outhouses. Or the streets.

We can all experience the joys of living in terror of polio and smallpox and the excitement of playing thalidomide roulette every time we swallow a pill or give one to our children

Presumably people would pay privately for fire insurance but if one's neighbor chooses to gamble, your house goes up along with theirs

Education would be left to private industry meaning, what?, 20, 30 or 50 percent of the population illiterate? And who knows what the other 50% would be taught? I guess we should all be relieved to know that crazy stuff like evolution would no longer be taught in large swaths of the country.

Instead of the occasional Great Recession we could have recurring depressions caused by market manipulations just like the 1870's, At least they would be predictable.

But wait. We wouldn't even have currency so who knows what the economy would look like. Some form of barter economy I guess so we can all party like its 1499.

We wouldn't have a clue about what's in our food, except we can be virtually certain it would include mouse droppings, pieces of rat, human snot and a bunch of other delicacies. Or of course we could all grow and make our own food so we could have an economy just like the Middle Ages

It would be fun to walk on Lake Erie, though.

I think he was saying he doesn’t want to be pushed.(not speaking for Rod). But that’s what he said. I wouldn’t take that to mean we don’t need leadership and organization.
And like anything shouldn’t we see each case differently? Or at least each region differently?
How can something like a corona vaccine be touted as a miracle in a place like San Miguel county which is still sitting on zero deaths.
So I guess we are doing perfectly. And why is that? Can’t credit the vaxx. Yet we are supposed to get jabbed to improve on perfect?
Who exactly would we be protecting?
What’s the science behind vaccinating for something that has killed zero people?
And no way in hell this community can claim that the zero death number is a testament to everyone locking down and not socializing and spreading it around. That’s not what happened.

Yet somehow it’s a miracle. Or that if I don’t get it I will pay a price. Imagine the orange clown saying that. Seems pretty pushy to me. And what would the price be to jamming a needle into something that ain’t broke? Don’t know. Not gonna find out.

[beantownbubba]

We will have a drink or two and solve the world's problems in approximately 234 days.

Except for underestimating the quantities involved, you know it, brother!

[beantownbubba]

I think he was saying he doesn’t want to be pushed.(not speaking for Rod).

This is getting kind of weird. I really, really don't want to go all pedantic on y'all, but I truly don't understand. I get that some might say my response was excessive; if forced to say, I'd probably agree. But I quoted Rod's statement in my response and what he actually said was "I don't want the government pushing anything, or anyone." That seems a lot different to me than saying "I don't like being pushed" which is a statement I agree w/ wholeheartedly. To me the actual quote says "I don't want the government to have any power." If I am misinterpreting that I apologize but I really (not rhetorical) would appreciate an explanation of how that means "I don't like being pushed." Not arguing now, just curious and wanting to understand.

As for the parts about seeing each case or region differently, I agree w/ that 100% and have said exactly that with respect to COVID responses, gun control/2A issues and more. In particular, I have enthusiastically said multiple times that with respect to COVID responses San Miguel county should not be treated like Manhattan. And vice versa. For a different kind of example, I automatically assumed that even taking Rod's statement as broadly as I did, he did not intend to include national defense and border control/defense because (a) Rod and I have had similar conversations before so I know that was implied in his statement and I'm not interested in playing "gotcha;" and (b) the position I thought Rod was espousing almost always includes those exceptions no matter who is advocating for it. Summarized more generally I am all for subtlety, nuance and tailored solutions.