Las Vegas concert shooting

[chuckrh]

Prayers to victims of last night's concert shooting in Vegas. At least 20 dead, 100 wounded. Story unfolding now.

[Zip City]

50 dead, 200+ wounded now. Hundreds of rounds shot "from above"

[chuckrh]

Unreal. Apparently the shooter was on floor 32 of Mandalay Bay, on the other side of the strip. I'm going down there in 2 weeks for some (indoor) shows. I was going to stay at Mandalay but it was sold out that weekend. I travel down there for shows, etc about twice a year. Seeing places I have walked many times on the footage.

[beantownbubba]

Yet another horrific shooting. Not much to say beyond that and sympathy for the victims and their families.

I'm going to Vegas for the first time next week so I guess I'm paying a little closer attention to this one. Scary, scary shit. Cue the usual talking heads to say the usual things and then let's forget about it until the next one. Siiiiiigh...

[Beebs]

Yet another horrific shooting. Not much to say beyond that and sympathy for the victims and their families.

I'm going to Vegas for the first time next week so I guess I'm paying a little closer attention to this one. Scary, scary shit. Cue the usual talking heads to say the usual things and then let's forget about it until the next one. Siiiiiigh...

Watch your step in Vegas, Bubba. There's gonna be thoughts and prayers EVERYWHERE!

[chuckrh]

Yet another horrific shooting. Not much to say beyond that and sympathy for the victims and their families.

I'm going to Vegas for the first time next week so I guess I'm paying a little closer attention to this one. Scary, scary shit. Cue the usual talking heads to say the usual things and then let's forget about it until the next one. Siiiiiigh...

it looks like the vegas police etc did good job under the circumstances. i'm flying down on 10/19 for 4 days. you always have to watch yourself down there. common sense goes a long way. just a head's up, if you're in the old part (fremont street) you don't want to wander off the beaten path. a few block away can get dicey. if you stay in the tourist zones, you will be fine.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Country guitarist who survived Vegas shooting has political transformation, calls for gun control

[roland]

Watched a video from the crowd as the shooting took place, and it sounded like a full-auto just emptying a clip, and then changing, and running through another one. I'm all for the 2nd Amendment, but with a much greater screening process for mental health issues, but by what I heard on the video, this was not a "legal" firearm. Unfortunately, no matter how harsh gun laws may be or become, if someone wants something bad enough, they will find a way to get it, and this guy had the means and desire to mass murder.

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

Watch your step in Vegas, Bubba. There's gonna be thoughts and prayers EVERYWHERE!

Every Member of Congress Who Took Money From the NRA and Tweeted 'Thoughts and Prayers' to Las Vegas

[beantownbubba]

Watched a video from the crowd as the shooting took place, and it sounded like a full-auto just emptying a clip, and then changing, and running through another one. I'm all for the 2nd Amendment, but with a much greater screening process for mental health issues, but by what I heard on the video, this was not a "legal" firearm. Unfortunately, no matter how harsh gun laws may be or become, if someone wants something bad enough, they will find a way to get it, and this guy had the means and desire to mass murder.

Roland, I'm using your post as a jumping off point for discussion of the larger topic, not arguing against anything you've said.

Here's the thing: It's not about guns anymore.

As Einstein said, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of stupidity.

I don't have all the answers and I may not have any of them. But this I know (and I'm not saying this represents the views of anyone who's posted on the subject here; I'm talking about the classic NRA/GOP response which is to offer condolences and pass more legislation making it easier for private citizens to own more weapons): To simply shrug our collective shoulders and say "shit happens" in the face of the overwhelming numbers of incidents and murders ('cause let's call 'em what they are); to simply shrug our collective shoulders in the face of unquestioned statistics that conclusively illustrate that the US has far more guns and far more gun related violent incidents than any other country on earth; to simply shrug our collective shoulders and act as if there's nothing to be done about it is just not acceptable. It makes no logical sense. It makes no rational sense. It makes no common sense. It is, as a pretty smart guy once said, flat out stupid. And yet that's what we do (or don't do) over and over again.

So sure we can argue about what the cause(s) of the problem actually are; we can argue about different classifications of weapons, we can argue about a whole lot of stuff. But instead of using that process to obfuscate, delay and ignore reality, let's have those arguments in the context of "how do we deal with this horrible problem?" What I mean when i say that it's not about guns anymore is that the specific solutions are, at this horrible low point, far less important than a broad understanding and agreement that the status quo is unacceptable and that something needs to be done to at least try to make it better. IOW, right now it's about the insistence of people, including many rich, powerful people, that there isn't even a problem that needs solving. Right now it's about not doing the same things over and over again expecting different results.

How can anyone look at the repeated carnage and not say "we must be doing something wrong; maybe we should try something different"? Is there a logical, reasoned argument for not doing anything (or for further expanding gun owners' rights w/out addressing the present calamity)? If so, I'd love to hear it. If not, isn't it time to try to save some lives?

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

so we know that the shooter was a high-stakes gambler, an amateur pilot, a bit of a recluse, but what we really need to know: is he an SOB?

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

How can anyone look at the repeated carnage and not say "we must be doing something wrong; maybe we should try something different"? Is there a logical, reasoned argument for not doing anything (or for further expanding gun owners' rights w/out addressing the present calamity)? If so, I'd love to hear it. If not, isn't it time to try to save some lives?

Nothing's gonna change anytime soon, there's still way too many who buy into the "your dead kids don't trump my Constitutional rights" way of thinking

[Zip City]

Gun laws aren't ever changing. They didn't budge after kids died at Sandy Hook

Ok, I take that back. Had there been multiple deaths at the Congressional baseball game shooting, gun laws would have changed overnight

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

Gun laws aren't ever changing. They didn't budge after kids died at Sandy Hook

Ok, I take that back. Had there been multiple deaths at the Congressional baseball game shooting, gun laws would have changed overnight

Nah, they will change.......by getting weaker

http://www.sfchronicle.com/nation/artic ... 243745.php

[pearlbeer]

These shootings make me so mad and so very sad. I'll break down in tears discussing this with my kids at dinner tonight. They are only 5 and 7, which I would say is too young to understand, but I'm 42 and I don't understand. It is horrible. Just horrible.

Here is an Op/Ed I wrote a few years back that was picked up in a few major papers and outlets. I don't know what I was really looking to accomplish when I wrote it, more like get a few things off my chest. Sadly, I could change a few dates and locations and it is the same damn article. I just don't understand, these tragedies are simply beyond comprehension.

Later, I'll tell you guys about the personal threats I received after writing this......

https://www.salon.com/2015/12/31/i_have ... _any_more/

[beantownbubba]

Gun laws aren't ever changing.

Why?

Is there more power and influence at play here than that which caused prohibition to be instituted and then repealed? That opposed giving women the right to vote? That established and defended Jim Crow? That pursued the Vietnam war (US version) in the face of overwhelming evidence of stupidity and unwinnability? That entrenched and maintained the Communist Party in the Soviet Union?

[pearlbeer]

You know...also....I just got back from the hardware store, where I was carded for buying a can a spray paint. You have to be 18 (at least in TX) to buy FUCKING SPRAY PAINT. But that fucker had a dozen or more assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition. Honestly, I don't give a rats ass about having to show ID to buy spray paint, but I do think similar rules could be applied to goddamn killing machines. Man. Fuck the NRA.

Sorry...it has been a really fucking shitty day on Earth.....

[Zip City]

Gun laws aren't ever changing.

Why?

Is there more power and influence at play here than that which caused prohibition to be instituted and then repealed? That opposed giving women the right to vote? That established and defended Jim Crow? That pursued the Vietnam war (US version) in the face of overwhelming evidence of stupidity and unwinnability? That entrenched and maintained the Communist Party in the Soviet Union?

Because Sandy Hook made them double down and dig in their heels. Dead kids didn't move them. They have no hearts, and they are bought and sold

[John A Arkansawyer]

It's a rare day someone unlicensed is caught with a fully automatic weapon, and almost unheard of if it was built to be fully automatic. This guy was almost certainly using converted semi-automatics. He had sixteen rifles (isn't that a Brian May song?) with him. Possibly he was worried about overheating the barrel, so they were probably not built to be used as automatics. So if you want a small, possibly achievable step, putting the same downright harsh licensing regime used for automatic weapons onto the most common convertible semi-automatics is a good bet. Just winning one of these breaks the NRA's mystique. Don't wait for something perfect. Just beat them.

[pearlbeer]

It's a rare day someone unlicensed is caught with a fully automatic weapon, and almost unheard of if it was built to be fully automatic. This guy was almost certainly using converted semi-automatics. He had sixteen rifles (isn't that a Brian May song?) with him. Possibly he was worried about overheating the barrel, so they were probably not built to be used as automatics. So if you want a small, possibly achievable step, putting the same downright harsh licensing regime used for automatic weapons onto the most common convertible semi-automatics is a good bet. Just winning one of these breaks the NRA's mystique. Don't wait for something perfect. Just beat them.

Couldn't we just start by saying that (at least most) private citizens are not allowed to buy, own, sell or possess any weapon whose sole intent in design is to kill human beings?

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

Find the price of freedom

[beantownbubba]

Find the price of freedom

In case you needed confirmation, here it is. Bill O'Reilly is a moron. Why anyone thinks he's more respectable than, say, Alex Jones, is beyond me.

[beantownbubba]

Because Sandy Hook made them double down and dig in their heels. Dead kids didn't move them. They have no hearts, and they are bought and sold

It's a rare day someone unlicensed is caught with a fully automatic weapon, and almost unheard of if it was built to be fully automatic. This guy was almost certainly using converted semi-automatics. He had sixteen rifles (isn't that a Brian May song?) with him. Possibly he was worried about overheating the barrel, so they were probably not built to be used as automatics. So if you want a small, possibly achievable step, putting the same downright harsh licensing regime used for automatic weapons onto the most common convertible semi-automatics is a good bet. Just winning one of these breaks the NRA's mystique. Don't wait for something perfect. Just beat them.

Thanks, gents. This juxtaposition is exactly my point: The idea that the NRA/gun absolutists can't be beat is quite a bit further out on the spectrum than any simple, small, controlled, precisely targeted attempt at limitations around the far edges of current freedoms. One of you is right. Obviously, I don't agree w/ zip but he's not exactly alone in his viewpoint.

[beantownbubba]

For reference purposes, this is the entire text of the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

For reference and comparison purposes, this is the entire text of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

For purposes of future discussion it is completely settled and uncontroversial law that both amendments apply to state as well as the federal government (by application of the 14th amendment if anybody cares about the technicalities). That means that it's ok in any future discussion to talk about what "government" can and can't do w/out having to limit the convo to the federal govt.

[dime in the gutter]

here is a 1/2 assed start.

hand guns should be illegal. get caught with one, 10 year min sentence.

1 year voluntary forfeiture program. turn in a hand gun.....pay no taxes that year. turn in an unregistered hand gun....never pay taxes again.

on day 366....get caught with one, do a 10spot.

[Zip City]

1/2 assed start version 2:

If you sell someone a gun, whether out of a gun store, a gun show, or the trunk of your car, and that gun is used to commit a crime, then you, as the seller, are charged as an accessory to that crime.

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

I know, I know, memes are as useless as thoughts and prayers, but I gotta rant. Mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore

[Beebs]

Couldn't we just start by saying that (at least most) private citizens are not allowed to buy, own, sell or possess any weapon whose sole intent in design is to kill human beings?

How do you define that? Any attempts thus far have been way off.

[beantownbubba]

I logged on to say that as of this morning there seems to be at least one heartening development out of this tragedy but wwcd beat me to it. I'm very relieved and somewhat grateful to see that the old, tired, empty, cynical, reflexive, routine and meaningless "thoughts and prayers" response is finally getting the response it deserves not only from a broader spectrum of people but with more of the disdain, derision and challenge that is required. By itself it ain't much, but it's a start. And it's very much in keeping w/ my earlier point that the first step is to get to a broad societal agreement that this is in fact a problem capable of being solved and we ought to try to solve it.

[Zip City]