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Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:29 pm
by Sterling Bigmouth
Molina checks all the boxes that old school baseball writers and commentators love. Durable, sizable counting stats, Gold Gloves, World Series champ, part of a baseball family, etc. I don’t think he should make it, but I won’t surprised when if he does.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:51 pm
by Tequila Cowboy
Sterling Bigmouth wrote:Molina checks all the boxes that old school baseball writers and commentators love. Durable, sizable counting stats, Gold Gloves, World Series champ, part of a baseball family, etc. I don’t think he should make it, but I won’t surprised when if he does.
Nope, me neither. I think he gets in.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:15 pm
by Zip City
Tequila Cowboy wrote:
Zip City wrote:Buster Olney had a Twitter poll up asking if Yadier Molina was a first-ballot HoFer, a HoFer, or not a HoFer. The majority of the voters said A or B. What is this madness? Molina isn't close to sniffing the Hall of Fame on any level, but there is this narrative about him being some transcendent player.
Almost every baseball analyst I listen to, and I listen to a lot of them, think he's a lock. I don't see it. He was an incredible defender for a long time but as a hitter he's a lifetime 100 wRC+ there's nothing there that screams HoF to me.
His career fWAR is barely 60% of a baseline Hall of Famer. In 15 years he’s not even at 2000 hits. It’s like everyone has been drinking crazy juice.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:23 pm
by beantownbubba
Sterling Bigmouth wrote:Molina checks all the boxes that old school baseball writers and commentators love. Durable, sizable counting stats, Gold Gloves, World Series champ, part of a baseball family, etc. I don’t think he should make it, but I won’t surprised when if he does.
I think the answer's somewhere in here.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:23 pm
by Shakespeare
the hall (or more accurately the voters, but also stuff like joe morgans terrible letter, written under the guise of being an offical hall stance) has almost completely finished killing my interest in the entire institution to be honest. maybe the new class of voters will redeem it a bit but its been a while since ive cared enough to even debate who should or shouldnt be in. i never made it to cooperstown as a kid and i have a hard time imagining it as a worthwhile trip for me now, which is a shame

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:30 pm
by Zip City
Molina's career stats (through 2017):

fWAR: 35.7 (397th all-time)
Hits: 1730 (428 all-time)
HR: 126 (646th all-time)
RBI: 785 (508th all-time)

I could go on and on, but I don't think there are enough gold gloves or neck tattoos to make up for these pedestrian offensive numbers.

As a frame of reference, Mike Trout (at age 26) has a career fWAR of 56.8. Players like Ben Zobrist, Ian Kinsler and Russell Martin have higher career fWAR #s than Molina. He is exceedingly below average

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:31 pm
by LBRod
If he isn’t a lock, then hater is the only catcher who has a chance. If you don’t think Buster is a lock, then fuck off.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:05 pm
by Zip City
LBRod wrote:If he isn’t a lock, then hater is the only catcher who has a chance. If you don’t think Buster is a lock, then fuck off.
Buster has a ways to go in his career compared to Yadi

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 5:07 pm
by beantownbubba
That Mookie Betts guy can play a little.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:31 pm
by Sterling Bigmouth
Just in case I don’t get to say it again all season: it feels nice going to bed with the Braves 1st place in the East

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:58 am
by Tequila Cowboy
Sterling Bigmouth wrote:Just in case I don’t get to say it again all season: it feels nice going to bed with the Braves 1st place in the East
Oh, you might say it a few more times if the Mets lose deGrom. Hard to see the Nats not putting it together eventually but that’s a tough division all of a sudden.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:14 am
by Tequila Cowboy
Oh, and Giants fans? I'd be getting familiar with the Braves farm system if I were you. Bumgarner looks like a hell of a fit there in a deadline trade...

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:13 pm
by LBRod
Zip City wrote:
LBRod wrote:If he isn’t a lock, then hater is the only catcher who has a chance. If you don’t think Buster is a lock, then fuck off.
Buster has a ways to go in his career compared to Yadi
Hater was supposed to be Buster, and I believe they are both sure thing Hall of Fame players.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:15 pm
by LBRod
Tequila Cowboy wrote:Oh, and Giants fans? I'd be getting familiar with the Braves farm system if I were you. Bumgarner looks like a hell of a fit there in a deadline trade...
Not so fast, TC. Los Gigantes are over .500, and having fun. This season has a long way to go.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:17 pm
by Zip City
LBRod wrote:
Zip City wrote:
LBRod wrote:If he isn’t a lock, then hater is the only catcher who has a chance. If you don’t think Buster is a lock, then fuck off.
Buster has a ways to go in his career compared to Yadi
Hater was supposed to be Buster, and I believe they are both sure thing Hall of Fame players.
You think they're both "sure things" based on talent or based on the voters?

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:18 pm
by Shakespeare
writings been on the wall for a few years but ichiros dont-call-it-retirement is a bummer. probably my favorite player that never played on the team i root for. ive got no interest in debating him vs rose or anything, its just remarkable what ichiro accomplished

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:20 pm
by LBRod
Zip City wrote: You think they're both "sure things" based on talent or based on the voters?
Based on being the dominant players at their position for years.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:33 pm
by Tequila Cowboy
LBRod wrote:
Tequila Cowboy wrote:Oh, and Giants fans? I'd be getting familiar with the Braves farm system if I were you. Bumgarner looks like a hell of a fit there in a deadline trade...
Not so fast, TC. Los Gigantes are over .500, and having fun. This season has a long way to go.
I get it but they're a long shot to begin with and if Cueto is lost the jig is up. I won't squash your joy though, although if it were me I'd have more joy over rebuilding with prospects anyway.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:44 pm
by beantownbubba
Shakespeare wrote:writings been on the wall for a few years but ichiros dont-call-it-retirement is a bummer. probably my favorite player that never played on the team i root for. ive got no interest in debating him vs rose or anything, its just remarkable what ichiro accomplished
I dont know if i have a personal category called favorite player not on a team i root for* but basically, yeah. A great player, great for the game and incredibly fun to watch.

* I know i don't literally think about it that way but i've undoubtedly had players that would fit that description. First there were Sandy Koufax and Willie Mays but that was also tied up w/ their ny roots so i don't know if they count. But Roberto Clemente and Hank Aaron probably filled that role and there have been others since.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:57 pm
by Zip City
LBRod wrote:
Zip City wrote: You think they're both "sure things" based on talent or based on the voters?
Based on being the dominant players at their position for years.
Looking at qualified catchers over Molina's career, he ranks 5th in fWAR (easily the best defensively, and easily the worst offensively). Mauer, Posey, Martin and McCann rank ahead of him

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm
by LBRod
You keep reading stats, I'll keep watching baseball. ;)

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:50 am
by beantownbubba
LBRod wrote:You keep reading stats, I'll keep watching baseball. ;)
Quoted for pithiness.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:09 am
by Zip City
LBRod wrote:You keep reading stats, I'll keep watching baseball. ;)
To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi on this Star Wars Day: "Your eyes deceive you, don't trust them."

But seriously, Molina is (was) an elite defensive catcher who was below average offensively. Does that make him an Ozzie Smith-esque addition to the Hall? Maybe. Do we reward players who are elite at one aspect of the game while middling/bad at others admission to the Hall? This question will come up more and more as we look at career designated-hitters as well.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:14 am
by Shakespeare
i dont have a strong take on molinas merits in particular (beyond thinking he will get in as a writers darling) but considering the lowered bar for offensive production by a catcher and the inconsistent (at best) nature of defensive stats, im not sure WAR is a helpful argument

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:26 am
by Tequila Cowboy
Zip City wrote:
LBRod wrote:You keep reading stats, I'll keep watching baseball. ;)
To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi on this Star Wars Day: "Your eyes deceive you, don't trust them."

But seriously, Molina is (was) an elite defensive catcher who was below average offensively. Does that make him an Ozzie Smith-esque addition to the Hall? Maybe. Do we reward players who are elite at one aspect of the game while middling/bad at others admission to the Hall? This question will come up more and more as we look at career designated-hitters as well.
I think we are going to see that more and more. As someone that believes in a smaller, more exclusive HoF I don't love it but it is reality. Omar Vizquel got 37% on his first ballot and is considered a mortal lock to get to the 75% before his eligibility is up. I wouldn't put him in and I assume you wouldn't either.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:32 am
by Zip City
Shakespeare wrote:i dont have a strong take on molinas merits in particular (beyond thinking he will get in as a writers darling) but considering the lowered bar for offensive production by a catcher and the inconsistent (at best) nature of defensive stats, im not sure WAR is a helpful argument
I agree, defensive metrics are a mess, but even so, defensive WAR has Molina lapping the field compared to his contemporaries. His offensive metrics (that are more easily quantifiable) say he’s not great at the plate.

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:18 am
by Shakespeare
Zip City wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:i dont have a strong take on molinas merits in particular (beyond thinking he will get in as a writers darling) but considering the lowered bar for offensive production by a catcher and the inconsistent (at best) nature of defensive stats, im not sure WAR is a helpful argument
I agree, defensive metrics are a mess, but even so, defensive WAR has Molina lapping the field compared to his contemporaries. His offensive metrics (that are more easily quantifiable) say he’s not great at the plate.
kinda funny that for what i imagine will be a fairly divisive candidate, the eye test and the advanced metrics pretty much agree on what molina is, the only difference being whether that warrants induction

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:34 pm
by whatwouldcooleydo?
Molina has neck ink, so fuck him ;)

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 4:19 pm
by Shakespeare
matt harvey DFA'd by the mets. refused a minor league assignment.

what a sad fall from grace thats been

Re: MLB 2018

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 4:28 pm
by Tequila Cowboy
Shakespeare wrote:matt harvey DFA'd by the mets. refused a minor league assignment.

what a sad fall from grace thats been
Hard for me to feel sorry for Harvey or the Mets who seem to have no idea how to handle pitchers from an organizational standpoint, despite hiring two experts on the subject in Callaway and pitching coach Dan Warthen.