Sterling Bigmouth wrote:I think Halladay probably pitched 2 or 3 of the ten greatest games I’ve ever watched. RIP

thought of him a bunch during playoffs when a couple of pitchers had no-hitters going

Sterling Bigmouth wrote:I think Halladay probably pitched 2 or 3 of the ten greatest games I’ve ever watched. RIP

He pitched here in Philly for just 4 seasons but man did he make a big impression. A fierce pitcher. That no hitter against the Reds in the 2010 playoffs was awesome. RIP Roy Halladay.

MLB is a joke. the Cardinals committed actual crimes and got a slap on the wrist, Atlanta gamed the system and got hammered. Such bullshit. Sorry, braves fans you did not deserve this.

Can’t say I’m shocked. Braves aren’t the only ones doing it, but they’re the ones that got caught, so I’m assuming Manfred was looking for someone to make an example out of. Whoever gets Kevin Maitan is getting a hell of a 17 year old switch hitting prospect.

Are the Yankees really looking at Carlos Beltran as manager? I know he has spoken of his desire to manage, but are they really gonna hand the keys to a guy who has, obviously, never coached or managed a game

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:Are the Yankees really looking at Carlos Beltran as manager? I know he has spoken of his desire to manage, but are they really gonna hand the keys to a guy who has, obviously, never coached or managed a game

I honestly haven't the slightest idea what they're doing. This is a team that should be the prohibitive favorites in the AL next year and yet they fired a top five manager in the game to interview the likes of Aaron Boone, Eric Wedge and Carlos Beltran who's playing uniform isn't dry yet.

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:Are the Yankees really looking at Carlos Beltran as manager? I know he has spoken of his desire to manage, but are they really gonna hand the keys to a guy who has, obviously, never coached or managed a game

I honestly haven't the slightest idea what they're doing. This is a team that should be the prohibitive favorites in the AL next year and yet they fired a top five manager in the game to interview the likes of Aaron Boone, Eric Wedge and Carlos Beltran who's playing uniform isn't dry yet.

Wedge will never outdo his work against the Death Star

For those of us who grew up in the 1970s and 1980s as Tigers fans, watching Alan Trammell and Jack Morris be selected to join the HOF by the "Modern Era Committee" is pretty cool.

I knew Morris would eventually get in, but man, what a joke. A largely mediocre pitcher who has ridden the fame of one game to the Hall of Fame

Zip City wrote:I knew Morris would eventually get in, but man, what a joke. A largely mediocre pitcher who has ridden the fame of one game to the Hall of Fame

As an incredibly biased Braves fan, I agree.

Zip City wrote:I knew Morris would eventually get in, but man, what a joke. A largely mediocre pitcher who has ridden the fame of one game to the Hall of Fame

I can't stand Jack Morris but nonetheless, let's hear your argument for him being largely mediocre. Dude won 254 games, which ranks him 43rd all-time. Of those pitchers ranking ahead of him in wins, all but ten are in the HOF (and of those not in, that includes PED stained Clemens & Pettite), while there are a ton of pitchers with fewer wins than Morris in (such as Bob Gibson, Whitey Ford, Catfish Hunter, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, et al.). He won 4 world championships, was an All-Star 5 times, and he is 34th all-time in Ks. And while it does seem like he was around forever, he pitched 17 seasons. That is a lot, no doubt, but hey, Smoltz pitched 22, Nolan Ryan 27, Steve Carlton 24, Roger Clemens 24, not to mention other like Moyers, Kaat, and Charlie Hough.

Counting stats (like wins) are fine, but he pitched for a million years

3.90 ERA and 105 ERA+ are the definition of “meh”

Zip City wrote:Counting stats (like wins) are fine, but he pitched for a million years

3.90 ERA and 105 ERA+ are the definition of “meh”

did you read what I said about how many pitchers pitched a ton of more seasons than him?

Zip City wrote:Counting stats (like wins) are fine, but he pitched for a million years

3.90 ERA and 105 ERA+ are the definition of “meh”

That was a most persuasive argument

Zip City wrote:Counting stats (like wins) are fine, but he pitched for a million years

3.90 ERA and 105 ERA+ are the definition of “meh”

His ERA was inflated in large part to how long he stayed in games. He pitched over 250 innings 6 times and over 240 innings 10 times. If he pitched today, with his nasty stuff, he would be pulled from games much earlier to limit his innings and would have a much better ERA. I saw him pitch plenty against the White Sox (yes I used to be a fan of both teams) and his stuff was filthy. To me he was a borderline HoF player but the playoff performances, along with some spectacular regular season single game, pushed him over the mark with the committee. I just don't see the travesty you do, Zip.

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

Zip City wrote:Counting stats (like wins) are fine, but he pitched for a million years

3.90 ERA and 105 ERA+ are the definition of “meh”

His ERA was inflated in large part to how long he stayed in games. He pitched over 250 innings 6 times and over 240 innings 10 times. If he pitched today, with his nasty stuff, he would be pulled from games much earlier to limit his innings and would have a much better ERA. I saw him pitch plenty against the White Sox (yes I used to be a fan of both teams) and his stuff was filthy. To me he was a borderline HoF player but the playoff performances, along with some spectacular regular season single game, pushed him over the mark with the committee. I just don't see the travesty you do, Zip.

I too saw him pitch quite a bit, and that definitely played a big role in my reply. Not saying that this is the case with Zip, but the comment about him being largely mediocre struck me as likely being from someone who hadn't seen this dude in his prime and was only going off numbers.

Like I said before, I never liked this guy, and I resent Zip causing me to come to Morris' defense

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

Zip City wrote:Counting stats (like wins) are fine, but he pitched for a million years

3.90 ERA and 105 ERA+ are the definition of “meh”

His ERA was inflated in large part to how long he stayed in games. He pitched over 250 innings 6 times and over 240 innings 10 times. If he pitched today, with his nasty stuff, he would be pulled from games much earlier to limit his innings and would have a much better ERA. I saw him pitch plenty against the White Sox (yes I used to be a fan of both teams) and his stuff was filthy. To me he was a borderline HoF player but the playoff performances, along with some spectacular regular season single game, pushed him over the mark with the committee. I just don't see the travesty you do, Zip.

I too saw him pitch quite a bit, and that definitely played a big role in my reply. Not saying that this is the case with Zip, but the comment about him being largely mediocre struck me as likely being from someone who hadn't seen this dude in his prime and was only going off numbers.

Like I said before, I never liked this guy, and I resent Zip causing me to come to Morris' defense

I hear you and I'm much in the same boat. Personally I don't think he should be in but like I said it's borderline. He certainly didn't suck and if you talk to players who faced him often they'll tell you how tough he was.

I never said he sucked, just that he's not a Hall of Famer.

ERA+ compares pitchers across eras and negates park factors, and a 105 means he was only 5% better than the average pitcher. Compare that to other recent HoF inductees Randy Johnson (135), Pedro Martinez (154), John Smoltz (125), Tom Glavine (118) and Greg Maddux (132). Add in NO Cy Young awards, only 5 All-Star appearances (in 18 seasons), and a Black Ink score of 20 (where 40 is an average Hall of Famer).

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:

Tequila Cowboy wrote:
His ERA was inflated in large part to how long he stayed in games. He pitched over 250 innings 6 times and over 240 innings 10 times. If he pitched today, with his nasty stuff, he would be pulled from games much earlier to limit his innings and would have a much better ERA. I saw him pitch plenty against the White Sox (yes I used to be a fan of both teams) and his stuff was filthy. To me he was a borderline HoF player but the playoff performances, along with some spectacular regular season single game, pushed him over the mark with the committee. I just don't see the travesty you do, Zip.

I too saw him pitch quite a bit, and that definitely played a big role in my reply. Not saying that this is the case with Zip, but the comment about him being largely mediocre struck me as likely being from someone who hadn't seen this dude in his prime and was only going off numbers.

Like I said before, I never liked this guy, and I resent Zip causing me to come to Morris' defense

I hear you and I'm much in the same boat. Personally I don't think he should be in but like I said it's borderline. He certainly didn't suck and if you talk to players who faced him often they'll tell you how tough he was.

Borderline HOF and largely mediocre aren't even remotely close to being equal

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:Borderline HOF and largely mediocre aren't even remotely close to being equal

Which begs the question; Zip, did you ever see Morris pitch?

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:Borderline HOF and largely mediocre aren't even remotely close to being equal

Which begs the question; Zip, did you ever see Morris pitch?

Late in his career, yes. I think had the 10 IP, 0 ER Game 7 never happened, we would'nt be having this conversation. Morris will forever be known as a marginal inclusion into the Hall, and his induction over FAR better players (on suspicions of PED's) is outrageous

Zip City wrote:I think had the 10 IP, 0 ER Game 7 never happened, we would'nt be having this conversation.

And I think you are extremely wrong

Also, don't move home plate- your original point was that he was largely mediocre, NOT whether he deserved to get into Cooperstwon

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:

Zip City wrote:I think had the 10 IP, 0 ER Game 7 never happened, we would'nt be having this conversation.

And I think you are extremely wrong

Agree to disagree. It was a career-defining moment in a waning career; '89 and '90 were below average, and Morris was looking like he was done. He had an uptick in 1991, culminating in Game 7. He won 21 games in '92 thanks to a ton of run support, and then he fell off a cliff.

There are plenty of players with really long careers who had many seasons where they were good to very good, but were never the best. I guess the argument comes down to your personal standards for HoF induction; do you want people who were the best, or people who were very good over a long career?

Zip City wrote:

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:

Zip City wrote:I think had the 10 IP, 0 ER Game 7 never happened, we would'nt be having this conversation.

And I think you are extremely wrong

Agree to disagree. It was a career-defining moment in a waning career; '89 and '90 were below average, and Morris was looking like he was done. He had an uptick in 1991, culminating in Game 7. He won 21 games in '92 thanks to a ton of run support, and then he fell off a cliff.

There are plenty of players with really long careers who had many seasons where they were good to very good, but were never the best. I guess the argument comes down to your personal standards for HoF induction; do you want people who were the best, or people who were very good over a long career?

Again, I never said he should or should not be in the HOF, so don't change the subject. Everything I have posted on this subject is in response to you saying that he was "largely mediocre," minus one game.

I want the HOF to be for greats, but they opened it to the "very good but not great" a long time ago

Ok, I'll retract "mediocre" and say "mostly good but rarely great". Better?

Zip City wrote:I never said he sucked, just that he's not a Hall of Famer.

ERA+ compares pitchers across eras and negates park factors, and a 105 means he was only 5% better than the average pitcher. Compare that to other recent HoF inductees Randy Johnson (135), Pedro Martinez (154), John Smoltz (125), Tom Glavine (118) and Greg Maddux (132). Add in NO Cy Young awards, only 5 All-Star appearances (in 18 seasons), and a Black Ink score of 20 (where 40 is an average Hall of Famer).

George Will couldn't have said it any better

Zip City wrote:Ok, I'll retract "mediocre" and say "mostly good but rarely great". Better?

totally better.

one thing I learned from this whole issue:

Jack Morris is Mormon. I did not know that

Ok Giants fans, WTF? They trade Christian Arroyo for an aging Evan Longoria who had a .737 OPS and 96 wRC+ in 2017? Are they eating stupid pills? This team looks like it's ripe for a rebuild and they get a declining superstar. I don't get it.

Tequila Cowboy wrote:Ok Giants fans, WTF? They trade Christian Arroyo for an aging Evan Longoria who had a .737 OPS and 96 wRC+ in 2017? Are they eating stupid pills? This team looks like it's ripe for a rebuild and they get a declining superstar. I don't get it.

WTF? seems to be the consensus among my Giants friends I've heard from.

Speaking of WTF?: WTF is " wRC+"?