For the life of me I will never understand how people thought 37 year old Moises Alou was gonna catch that ball. He even admitted to it afterwards (even if he retracted that statement later).

Sterling Bigmouth wrote:For the life of me I will never understand how people thought 37 year old Moises Alou was gonna catch that ball. He even admitted to it afterwards (even if he retracted that statement later).

As I remember it [that's an important disclaimer lol], in real time I thought for sure Alou was going to catch the ball but in replay it seemed less likely but not definitive either way. Also at first the incident seemed to play into a then current pet peeve of mine: hometown fans not getting out of the way of potentially catchable foul balls. But pet peeve or not what happened to bartman after that was just over the top, out of control and kinda scary.

Sterling Bigmouth wrote:For the life of me I will never understand how people thought 37 year old Moises Alou was gonna catch that ball. He even admitted to it afterwards (even if he retracted that statement later).

I sat in section 204 in my best friends season tickets for every game that series, which is roughly 2-3 sections behind where the play occurred. In the heat of the moment I yelled "you f%cking a$$hole" at Bartman as they ushered him out. I would have thrown an Old Style in his face like others if I had been closer. It was a low feeling, but and I like many others acted on carnal instincts at that time. I was part of the problem and truly the asshole. Come the next morning I held no resentment towards Bartman and more so on Alex Gonzalez and Dusty not having the bullpen ready. Am I little remorseful? Yes. Would I have been that emotional again? eh, Maybe. Does that make it right? Absolutely not.

With all of that said....I have seen that catch made in that area at Wrigley a lot both live and on TV. Moises Alou was an above average fielder. He had a perfect beat on that ball, was familiar with his surroundings,was in position to make the catch, and in my opinion would have caught that ball. I have seen much lesser fielders make it.


Good on the Cubs. Good on Bartman. It's nice for the dynamics of that folklore to be put to bed for a while. The hollow feeling of that Red Line ride back after Game 6 had haunted me for a long time.

Cubfan06 wrote:

Sterling Bigmouth wrote:For the life of me I will never understand how people thought 37 year old Moises Alou was gonna catch that ball. He even admitted to it afterwards (even if he retracted that statement later).

I sat in section 204 in my best friends season tickets for every game that series, which is roughly 2-3 sections behind where the play occurred. In the heat of the moment I yelled "you f%cking a$$hole" at Bartman as they ushered him out. I would have thrown an Old Style in his face like others if I had been closer. It was a low feeling, but and I like many others acted on carnal instincts at that time. I was part of the problem and truly the asshole. Come the next morning I held no resentment towards Bartman and more so on Alex Gonzalez and Dusty not having the bullpen ready. Am I little remorseful? Yes. Would I have been that emotional again? eh, Maybe. Does that make it right? Absolutely not.

With all of that said....I have seen that catch made in that area at Wrigley a lot both live and on TV. Moises Alou was an above average fielder. He had a perfect beat on that ball, was familiar with his surroundings,was in position to make the catch, and in my opinion would have caught that ball. I have seen much lesser fielders make it.


Good on the Cubs. Good on Bartman. It's nice for the dynamics of that folklore to be put to bed for a while. The hollow feeling of that Red Line ride back after Game 6 had haunted me for a long time.

Wow, even if you wish you had reacted differently that’s a pretty great story getting to be there, especially that close to it. I have no doubt in my mind I’d have handled the situation poorly, but the great thing about the Bartman incident was putting yourself in the shoes of everyone involved (Bartman, Alou, the fans, etc.) The 30 for 30 on that game is a must watch for sure.

Sterling Bigmouth wrote:

Cubfan06 wrote:

Sterling Bigmouth wrote:For the life of me I will never understand how people thought 37 year old Moises Alou was gonna catch that ball. He even admitted to it afterwards (even if he retracted that statement later).

I sat in section 204 in my best friends season tickets for every game that series, which is roughly 2-3 sections behind where the play occurred. In the heat of the moment I yelled "you f%cking a$$hole" at Bartman as they ushered him out. I would have thrown an Old Style in his face like others if I had been closer. It was a low feeling, but and I like many others acted on carnal instincts at that time. I was part of the problem and truly the asshole. Come the next morning I held no resentment towards Bartman and more so on Alex Gonzalez and Dusty not having the bullpen ready. Am I little remorseful? Yes. Would I have been that emotional again? eh, Maybe. Does that make it right? Absolutely not.

With all of that said....I have seen that catch made in that area at Wrigley a lot both live and on TV. Moises Alou was an above average fielder. He had a perfect beat on that ball, was familiar with his surroundings,was in position to make the catch, and in my opinion would have caught that ball. I have seen much lesser fielders make it.


Good on the Cubs. Good on Bartman. It's nice for the dynamics of that folklore to be put to bed for a while. The hollow feeling of that Red Line ride back after Game 6 had haunted me for a long time.

Wow, even if you wish you had reacted differently that’s a pretty great story getting to be there, especially that close to it. I have no doubt in my mind I’d have handled the situation poorly, but the great thing about the Bartman incident was putting yourself in the shoes of everyone involved (Bartman, Alou, the fans, etc.) The 30 for 30 on that game is a must watch for sure.

I love the 30 for 30's, but I haven't brought myself to watch it and don't think I can without bringing a feeling of self-loathing.

On to better and brighter things....Quintana on the bump against Greinke today in the rubber match of the series in a couple of minutes.

If the story had ended with him getting kicked out with a few beer showers, that would have been ideal.

It was the Chicago Sun-Times staking out his house (and releasing his name and address) that was truly unforgivable. Oh, and every national broadcast by FOX, ESPN and TBS showing that clip for fifteen years (because why go for good storylines when you can use lazy ones?) that ruined the guys life.

Zip City wrote:If the story had ended with him getting kicked out with a few beer showers, that would have been ideal.

It was the Chicago Sun-Times staking out his house (and releasing his name and address) that was truly unforgivable. Oh, and every national broadcast by FOX, ESPN and TBS showing that clip for fifteen years (because why go for good storylines when you can use lazy ones?) that ruined the guys life.

Great point. 100% agree on that as I think back in retrospect. In 2003, my roomate's girlfriend worked at Hewitt Associates in Lincolnshire at the time, of which Bartman also worked. It's a big office and she didn't personally know or interact with him. I remember her saying that it was a media circus for a week every time that the employees would pull in to work. Bartman allegedly went back to work for one day and never returned. That poor bastard.

Zip City wrote:If the story had ended with him getting kicked out with a few beer showers, that would have been ideal.

It was the Chicago Sun-Times staking out his house (and releasing his name and address) that was truly unforgivable. Oh, and every national broadcast by FOX, ESPN and TBS showing that clip for fifteen years (because why go for good storylines when you can use lazy ones?) that ruined the guys life.

Yep, spot on. Basically the media, and the loathsome Sun-Times sports section, turned a man's life into a companion piece to a long dead goat, which was stupid in the first place. Then of a course Linda Cohn at ESPN yesterday had to rant and allege it was all a huge publicity stunt for which the Cubs should be ashamed. Fuck all of them and the goat they rode in on.

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/li ... toa0v3b6g6

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

Zip City wrote:If the story had ended with him getting kicked out with a few beer showers, that would have been ideal.

It was the Chicago Sun-Times staking out his house (and releasing his name and address) that was truly unforgivable. Oh, and every national broadcast by FOX, ESPN and TBS showing that clip for fifteen years (because why go for good storylines when you can use lazy ones?) that ruined the guys life.

Yep, spot on. Basically the media, and the loathsome Sun-Times sports section, turned a man's life into a companion piece to a long dead goat, which was stupid in the first place. Then of a course Linda Cohn at ESPN yesterday had to rant and allege it was all a huge publicity stunt for which the Cubs should be ashamed. Fuck all of them and the goat they rode in on.

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/li ... toa0v3b6g6

I didn't see that. It would be interesting to see how Ms. Cohn would have covered this or reacted if it were her beloved NY Rangers. The Chicago Cubs organization did nothing to perpetuate this tale. They reached out to him multiple times over the years to attempt to reconstruct Bartman's life and make him feel welcome.
Does Bartman receiving a ring feel good for fans such as myself after 14 years of bad memories? Having been present there and I guess part of the problem, sure. She is accurate on that. It was the emotions of idiots such as myself and her darling media that were the problem. The Cubs organization had no culpability. This was a nice gesture.

I would be interested to see how Boston fans feel about Billy Buckner's return to Fenway and whether there were similar emotional parallels.

Zip City wrote:If the story had ended with him getting kicked out with a few beer showers, that would have been ideal.

It was the Chicago Sun-Times staking out his house (and releasing his name and address) that was truly unforgivable. Oh, and every national broadcast by FOX, ESPN and TBS showing that clip for fifteen years (because why go for good storylines when you can use lazy ones?) that ruined the guys life.

I was gonna keep my mouth shut, but.....agree that it's all class on the Cubs organization and Bartman himself, but this ring doesn't absolve all those in the Cub "nation" who treated Bartman like shit. Of course the media and the assholes who made his life hell will indeed try to spin it that this changes the shitty behavior, but it doesn't.

If nothing else, Pepperidge Farm will always remember

Someone should make a horror film in which Bartman breaks bad and exacts his bloody revenge

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:

Zip City wrote:If the story had ended with him getting kicked out with a few beer showers, that would have been ideal.

It was the Chicago Sun-Times staking out his house (and releasing his name and address) that was truly unforgivable. Oh, and every national broadcast by FOX, ESPN and TBS showing that clip for fifteen years (because why go for good storylines when you can use lazy ones?) that ruined the guys life.

I was gonna keep my mouth shut, but.....agree that it's all class on the Cubs organization and Bartman himself, but this ring doesn't absolve all those in the Cub "nation" who treated Bartman like shit. Of course the media and the assholes who made his life hell will indeed try to spin it that this changes the shitty behavior, but it doesn't.

If nothing else, Pepperidge Farm will always remember

Touche

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:

Zip City wrote:If the story had ended with him getting kicked out with a few beer showers, that would have been ideal.

It was the Chicago Sun-Times staking out his house (and releasing his name and address) that was truly unforgivable. Oh, and every national broadcast by FOX, ESPN and TBS showing that clip for fifteen years (because why go for good storylines when you can use lazy ones?) that ruined the guys life.

I was gonna keep my mouth shut, but.....agree that it's all class on the Cubs organization and Bartman himself, but this ring doesn't absolve all those in the Cub "nation" who treated Bartman like shit. Of course the media and the assholes who made his life hell will indeed try to spin it that this changes the shitty behavior, but it doesn't.

If nothing else, Pepperidge Farm will always remember

No because, as I've sadly discovered over the last two years, the majority of Cubs fans are fucking assholes with less baseball knowledge in their whole body than I have in my middle finger which I now metaphorically aim towards them.

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:

Zip City wrote:If the story had ended with him getting kicked out with a few beer showers, that would have been ideal.

It was the Chicago Sun-Times staking out his house (and releasing his name and address) that was truly unforgivable. Oh, and every national broadcast by FOX, ESPN and TBS showing that clip for fifteen years (because why go for good storylines when you can use lazy ones?) that ruined the guys life.

I was gonna keep my mouth shut, but.....agree that it's all class on the Cubs organization and Bartman himself, but this ring doesn't absolve all those in the Cub "nation" who treated Bartman like shit. Of course the media and the assholes who made his life hell will indeed try to spin it that this changes the shitty behavior, but it doesn't.

If nothing else, Pepperidge Farm will always remember

No because, as I've sadly discovered over the last two years, the majority of Cubs fans are fucking assholes with less baseball knowledge in their whole body than I have in my middle finger which I now metaphorically aim towards them.

I believe that is a generalization that can be used for most major and even small market fanbases. Maybe even our society as a whole. Hell, look who we elected as the 45th POTUS.

Cubfan06 wrote:I believe that is a generalization that can be used for most major and even small market fanbases. Maybe even our society as a whole. Hell, look who we elected as the 45th POTUS.

Of course you're probably right. I always go in to everything I do, work, hobbies, etc. believing that the other people who are involved in those things are good, honest people with whom I can share knowledge and a rapport, hell even respect. I'm disappointed every single fucking time. My wife finds this naively charming that I think like this and that I'm always surprised to be disappointed, and yet it's just who I am. Of course I also know that there are great fans out there and I interact with as many of them as I can. The friendships I've made in the last few years with intelligent Cubs fans are real and important to me. I've also dismissed Cardinals fans as dumb, racist, assholes as well, and there are some of those particularly if you read the comments in St. Louis media reports, but I will never, ever forget that the first two texts I received when the Cubs won the World Series were from Matt Patton's father in-law Bill and Will Johnson, both Cardinals fans to their core. That meant so much to me. So yeah, Ryan of course you're right, I was being harsh, but I do get frustrated from time to time.

Tequila Cowboy wrote:as I've sadly discovered over the last two years, the majority of Cubs fans are fucking assholes with less baseball knowledge in their whole body than I have in my middle finger which I now metaphorically aim towards them.

this reveals your cosmopolitan bias to a shocking degree

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

Cubfan06 wrote:I believe that is a generalization that can be used for most major and even small market fanbases. Maybe even our society as a whole. Hell, look who we elected as the 45th POTUS.

Of course you're probably right. I always go in to everything I do, work, hobbies, etc. believing that the other people who are involved in those things are good, honest people with whom I can share knowledge and a rapport, hell even respect. I'm disappointed every single fucking time. My wife finds this naively charming that I think like this and that I'm always surprised to be disappointed, and yet it's just who I am. Of course I also know that there are great fans out there and I interact with as many of them as I can. The friendships I've made in the last few years with intelligent Cubs fans are real and important to me. I've also dismissed Cardinals fans as dumb, racist, assholes as well, and there are some of those particularly if you read the comments in St. Louis media reports, but I will never, ever forget that the first two texts I received when the Cubs won the World Series were from Matt Patton's father in-law Bill and Will Johnson, both Cardinals fans to their core. That meant so much to me. So yeah, Ryan of course you're right, I was being harsh, but I do get frustrated from time to time.

Will Johnson beat me to the punch? Damn. I guess that I should have been quicker to my trigger finger instead of hoisting that 9th celebratory shot of Jamesons in the air.

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:this reveals your cosmopolitan bias to a shocking degree

Cubfan06 wrote:I would be interested to see how Boston fans feel about Billy Buckner's return to Fenway and whether there were similar emotional parallels.

A good analogy even though the difference between a player and a fan being the object of derision makes it inexact.

NB: These are my unresearched recollections and are likely to be off in at least some respects, hopefully not important ones.

My bias: Buckner got a raw deal from the beginning: He played most of that season hurt and he played well. Most important, he was almost always (maybe even always) taken out in the late innings for a defensive replacement (usually Dave Stapleton IIRC). Leaving him in was the manager's sentimental decision so he could be on the field for the celebration which did not occur. Additionally a lot of things had to go wrong for the Sox to lose both that game and the 7th game (which most people don't remember the Sox actually led in the early innings) - it wasn't all Buckner by any means.

The vitriol directed Buckner's way in the immediate aftermath of the Series was shockingly violent, over the top emotional and completely disproportionate to the events (same as w/ Bartman). There was a lot of mob mentality as everyone ratcheted up everyone else's emotions. He was a hated man, the butt of a thousand jokes and even more threats and literally had to move out of Boston. He was not welcome here for many years. As I recall, the team did try to slowly bring him back but those attempts did not work and his name remained mud until...

2004. After the Sox finally won it all, attitudes changed remarkably quickly and for the most part "all was forgiven." I personally thought that this was almost as much bullshit as the original vitriol, just fans w/ no stake and little understanding being their usual hypocritical selves. Whatever, Buckner's name was hardly ever heard anymore and when it was he was probably acknowledged as much for his talent and contributions as for the gaffe. At some point he came back to Fenway for some official event, got cheered way more than booed and that seemed to be the end of it. But it had nothing to do w/ Buckner, nothing to do w/ the team and little to do w/ the fans as human beings. It had everything to do w/ finally winning, which seems to be very similar to the fans' evolving view of Bartman (as opposed to the team's which was supportive all along).

No surprise here, but if I were Buckner and/or Bartman, I'd tell each respective fanbase to get fucked

As it read on the beach towel featuring a Confederate Yosemite Sam (seen at roadside stands all over the south back in the day, along with velvet Elvis paintings and all manner of NASCAR tchotchkes), "FORGET HELL!"

beantownbubba wrote:

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:this reveals your cosmopolitan bias to a shocking degree

Cubfan06 wrote:I would be interested to see how Boston fans feel about Billy Buckner's return to Fenway and whether there were similar emotional parallels.

A good analogy even though the difference between a player and a fan being the object of derision makes it inexact.

NB: These are my unresearched recollections and are likely to be off in at least some respects, hopefully not important ones.

My bias: Buckner got a raw deal from the beginning: He played most of that season hurt and he played well. Most important, he was almost always (maybe even always) taken out in the late innings for a defensive replacement (usually Dave Stapleton IIRC). Leaving him in was the manager's sentimental decision so he could be on the field for the celebration which did not occur. Additionally a lot of things had to go wrong for the Sox to lose both that game and the 7th game (which most people don't remember the Sox actually led in the early innings) - it wasn't all Buckner by any means.

The vitriol directed Buckner's way in the immediate aftermath of the Series was shockingly violent, over the top emotional and completely disproportionate to the events (same as w/ Bartman). There was a lot of mob mentality as everyone ratcheted up everyone else's emotions. He was a hated man, the butt of a thousand jokes and even more threats and literally had to move out of Boston. He was not welcome here for many years. As I recall, the team did try to slowly bring him back but those attempts did not work and his name remained mud until...

2004. After the Sox finally won it all, attitudes changed remarkably quickly and for the most part "all was forgiven." I personally thought that this was almost as much bullshit as the original vitriol, just fans w/ no stake and little understanding being their usual hypocritical selves. Whatever, Buckner's name was hardly ever heard anymore and when it was he was probably acknowledged as much for his talent and contributions as for the gaffe. At some point he came back to Fenway for some official event, got cheered way more than booed and that seemed to be the end of it. But it had nothing to do w/ Buckner, nothing to do w/ the team and little to do w/ the fans as human beings. It had everything to do w/ finally winning, which seems to be very similar to the fans' evolving view of Bartman (as opposed to the team's which was supportive all along).

Thank you for your well thought out response Beantown. That gives nice perspective and I appreciate it.

You have to admit that Buckner had a hell of a mustache in his day as well.

I used to always get Bill Buckner back when they had those cool 3-D baseball cards in Kellogg's cereal

Heard on the radio about a week ago that Bill Buckner is gonna be doing a speaking engagement in Cookeville in a couple weeks. Definitely caught me off guard!

If you look at the box score, you'll see that on Thurs nite against the Chisox Andrew Benintendi went 3 for 3, was on base 5 times and scored either 1 or 2 runs (I forget). What yo won't see is that he got thrown out at third base TWICE, and not just any kind of outs: One was the first out of the inning and the other was the last out. Horrible. Just horrible. I'd say rookie mistakes but what rookie makes 2 mistakes like that in the same game?

Bosox won w/ another offensive explosion so hope lives...

beantownbubba wrote:If you look at the box score, you'll see that on Thurs nite against the Chisox Andrew Benintendi went 3 for 3, was on base 5 times and scored either 1 or 2 runs (I forget). What yo won't see is that he got thrown out at third base TWICE, and not just any kind of outs: One was the first out of the inning and the other was the last out. Horrible. Just horrible. I'd say rookie mistakes but what rookie makes 2 mistakes like that in the same game?

Bosox won w/ another offensive explosion so hope lives...

Willson Contreras gets thrown out trying to get that extra base a lot too. I think it's growing pains and both these guys will figure it out. Benintendi will be fine. I'd be focusing on the stats not the blunders.

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

beantownbubba wrote:If you look at the box score, you'll see that on Thurs nite against the Chisox Andrew Benintendi went 3 for 3, was on base 5 times and scored either 1 or 2 runs (I forget). What yo won't see is that he got thrown out at third base TWICE, and not just any kind of outs: One was the first out of the inning and the other was the last out. Horrible. Just horrible. I'd say rookie mistakes but what rookie makes 2 mistakes like that in the same game?

Bosox won w/ another offensive explosion so hope lives...

Willson Contreras gets thrown out trying to get that extra base a lot too. I think it's growing pains and both these guys will figure it out. Benintendi will be fine. I'd be focusing on the stats not the blunders.

Sure. I wouldn't have posted if he weren't worth thinking about/following.

beantownbubba wrote:Sure. I wouldn't have posted if he weren't worth thinking about/following.

Yeah, of course. Sorry, Bean. I just keep having to defend players who deserve defending on the Cubs side so it was a reflex reaction.

Just watched top of 1st between Nationals/Cubs, pretty sure mini-John Moreland is sitting right behind home in a black polo shirt

Lenny Dykstra Doesn’t Dispute Sexual Harassment Claim, Admits Politics Make Him Horny

The 54-year-old Dykstra, who used to appear on Fox News and Fox Business often to promote his investment company, Nails Investments, said he doesn’t remember Heldman off the top of his head, but doesn’t doubt her claims.

“She’s just one of many, dude. She got to get on the space shuttle,” Dykstra said. He contended that the professor was trying to get publicity off him, but admitted that he found politics talk from an attractive woman “sexually arousing.”


Space shuttle? Something something O-ring

Forgot to mention Doug Fister's oddly interesting start the other night. Fister pitched an impressive 1 hit complete game victory. But the odd part is that the hit was a lead-off home run by Lindor. After that, he got 27 consecutive outs w/out giving up a hit (2 walks). The Sox' 9 run explosion in the 9th was superfluous but fun.

And what about poor Rich Hill? Last nite he loses a perfect game on an error in the 9th then loses the no hitter and the game on a walk off dinger in the 10th

beantownbubba wrote:Forgot to mention Doug Fister's oddly interesting start the other night. Fister pitched an impressive 1 hit complete game victory. But the odd part is that the hit was a lead-off home run by Lindor. After that, he got 27 consecutive outs w/out giving up a hit (2 walks). The Sox' 9 run explosion in the 9th was superfluous but fun.

And what about poor Rich Hill? Last nite he loses a perfect game on an error in the 9th then loses the no hitter and the game on a walk off dinger in the 10th

Think I was the only person watching that in the bar last night, everyone else was focused on a preseason NFL game (which may or may not have been a rerun????). I have nothing but contempt for the Dodgers, but Rich Hill is a great guy who I’ve rooted for since he came up with the Cubs. Wish he could’ve finished it off.