MLB 2018

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Sterling Bigmouth
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Sterling Bigmouth »

Molina checks all the boxes that old school baseball writers and commentators love. Durable, sizable counting stats, Gold Gloves, World Series champ, part of a baseball family, etc. I don’t think he should make it, but I won’t surprised when if he does.
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Tequila Cowboy
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Sterling Bigmouth wrote:Molina checks all the boxes that old school baseball writers and commentators love. Durable, sizable counting stats, Gold Gloves, World Series champ, part of a baseball family, etc. I don’t think he should make it, but I won’t surprised when if he does.
Nope, me neither. I think he gets in.
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Zip City
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Zip City »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:
Zip City wrote:Buster Olney had a Twitter poll up asking if Yadier Molina was a first-ballot HoFer, a HoFer, or not a HoFer. The majority of the voters said A or B. What is this madness? Molina isn't close to sniffing the Hall of Fame on any level, but there is this narrative about him being some transcendent player.
Almost every baseball analyst I listen to, and I listen to a lot of them, think he's a lock. I don't see it. He was an incredible defender for a long time but as a hitter he's a lifetime 100 wRC+ there's nothing there that screams HoF to me.
His career fWAR is barely 60% of a baseline Hall of Famer. In 15 years he’s not even at 2000 hits. It’s like everyone has been drinking crazy juice.
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beantownbubba
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by beantownbubba »

Sterling Bigmouth wrote:Molina checks all the boxes that old school baseball writers and commentators love. Durable, sizable counting stats, Gold Gloves, World Series champ, part of a baseball family, etc. I don’t think he should make it, but I won’t surprised when if he does.
I think the answer's somewhere in here.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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Shakespeare
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Shakespeare »

the hall (or more accurately the voters, but also stuff like joe morgans terrible letter, written under the guise of being an offical hall stance) has almost completely finished killing my interest in the entire institution to be honest. maybe the new class of voters will redeem it a bit but its been a while since ive cared enough to even debate who should or shouldnt be in. i never made it to cooperstown as a kid and i have a hard time imagining it as a worthwhile trip for me now, which is a shame

Zip City
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Zip City »

Molina's career stats (through 2017):

fWAR: 35.7 (397th all-time)
Hits: 1730 (428 all-time)
HR: 126 (646th all-time)
RBI: 785 (508th all-time)

I could go on and on, but I don't think there are enough gold gloves or neck tattoos to make up for these pedestrian offensive numbers.

As a frame of reference, Mike Trout (at age 26) has a career fWAR of 56.8. Players like Ben Zobrist, Ian Kinsler and Russell Martin have higher career fWAR #s than Molina. He is exceedingly below average
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LBRod
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by LBRod »

If he isn’t a lock, then hater is the only catcher who has a chance. If you don’t think Buster is a lock, then fuck off.
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Zip City
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Zip City »

LBRod wrote:If he isn’t a lock, then hater is the only catcher who has a chance. If you don’t think Buster is a lock, then fuck off.
Buster has a ways to go in his career compared to Yadi
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beantownbubba
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by beantownbubba »

That Mookie Betts guy can play a little.
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Sterling Bigmouth
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Sterling Bigmouth »

Just in case I don’t get to say it again all season: it feels nice going to bed with the Braves 1st place in the East
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Tequila Cowboy
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Sterling Bigmouth wrote:Just in case I don’t get to say it again all season: it feels nice going to bed with the Braves 1st place in the East
Oh, you might say it a few more times if the Mets lose deGrom. Hard to see the Nats not putting it together eventually but that’s a tough division all of a sudden.
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Tequila Cowboy
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Oh, and Giants fans? I'd be getting familiar with the Braves farm system if I were you. Bumgarner looks like a hell of a fit there in a deadline trade...
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LBRod
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by LBRod »

Zip City wrote:
LBRod wrote:If he isn’t a lock, then hater is the only catcher who has a chance. If you don’t think Buster is a lock, then fuck off.
Buster has a ways to go in his career compared to Yadi
Hater was supposed to be Buster, and I believe they are both sure thing Hall of Fame players.
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LBRod
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by LBRod »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:Oh, and Giants fans? I'd be getting familiar with the Braves farm system if I were you. Bumgarner looks like a hell of a fit there in a deadline trade...
Not so fast, TC. Los Gigantes are over .500, and having fun. This season has a long way to go.
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Zip City
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Zip City »

LBRod wrote:
Zip City wrote:
LBRod wrote:If he isn’t a lock, then hater is the only catcher who has a chance. If you don’t think Buster is a lock, then fuck off.
Buster has a ways to go in his career compared to Yadi
Hater was supposed to be Buster, and I believe they are both sure thing Hall of Fame players.
You think they're both "sure things" based on talent or based on the voters?
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Shakespeare
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Shakespeare »

writings been on the wall for a few years but ichiros dont-call-it-retirement is a bummer. probably my favorite player that never played on the team i root for. ive got no interest in debating him vs rose or anything, its just remarkable what ichiro accomplished

LBRod
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by LBRod »

Zip City wrote: You think they're both "sure things" based on talent or based on the voters?
Based on being the dominant players at their position for years.
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Tequila Cowboy
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

LBRod wrote:
Tequila Cowboy wrote:Oh, and Giants fans? I'd be getting familiar with the Braves farm system if I were you. Bumgarner looks like a hell of a fit there in a deadline trade...
Not so fast, TC. Los Gigantes are over .500, and having fun. This season has a long way to go.
I get it but they're a long shot to begin with and if Cueto is lost the jig is up. I won't squash your joy though, although if it were me I'd have more joy over rebuilding with prospects anyway.
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beantownbubba
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by beantownbubba »

Shakespeare wrote:writings been on the wall for a few years but ichiros dont-call-it-retirement is a bummer. probably my favorite player that never played on the team i root for. ive got no interest in debating him vs rose or anything, its just remarkable what ichiro accomplished
I dont know if i have a personal category called favorite player not on a team i root for* but basically, yeah. A great player, great for the game and incredibly fun to watch.

* I know i don't literally think about it that way but i've undoubtedly had players that would fit that description. First there were Sandy Koufax and Willie Mays but that was also tied up w/ their ny roots so i don't know if they count. But Roberto Clemente and Hank Aaron probably filled that role and there have been others since.
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Zip City
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Zip City »

LBRod wrote:
Zip City wrote: You think they're both "sure things" based on talent or based on the voters?
Based on being the dominant players at their position for years.
Looking at qualified catchers over Molina's career, he ranks 5th in fWAR (easily the best defensively, and easily the worst offensively). Mauer, Posey, Martin and McCann rank ahead of him
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LBRod
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by LBRod »

You keep reading stats, I'll keep watching baseball. ;)
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beantownbubba
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by beantownbubba »

LBRod wrote:You keep reading stats, I'll keep watching baseball. ;)
Quoted for pithiness.
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Zip City
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Zip City »

LBRod wrote:You keep reading stats, I'll keep watching baseball. ;)
To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi on this Star Wars Day: "Your eyes deceive you, don't trust them."

But seriously, Molina is (was) an elite defensive catcher who was below average offensively. Does that make him an Ozzie Smith-esque addition to the Hall? Maybe. Do we reward players who are elite at one aspect of the game while middling/bad at others admission to the Hall? This question will come up more and more as we look at career designated-hitters as well.
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Shakespeare
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Shakespeare »

i dont have a strong take on molinas merits in particular (beyond thinking he will get in as a writers darling) but considering the lowered bar for offensive production by a catcher and the inconsistent (at best) nature of defensive stats, im not sure WAR is a helpful argument

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Tequila Cowboy
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Zip City wrote:
LBRod wrote:You keep reading stats, I'll keep watching baseball. ;)
To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi on this Star Wars Day: "Your eyes deceive you, don't trust them."

But seriously, Molina is (was) an elite defensive catcher who was below average offensively. Does that make him an Ozzie Smith-esque addition to the Hall? Maybe. Do we reward players who are elite at one aspect of the game while middling/bad at others admission to the Hall? This question will come up more and more as we look at career designated-hitters as well.
I think we are going to see that more and more. As someone that believes in a smaller, more exclusive HoF I don't love it but it is reality. Omar Vizquel got 37% on his first ballot and is considered a mortal lock to get to the 75% before his eligibility is up. I wouldn't put him in and I assume you wouldn't either.
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Zip City
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Zip City »

Shakespeare wrote:i dont have a strong take on molinas merits in particular (beyond thinking he will get in as a writers darling) but considering the lowered bar for offensive production by a catcher and the inconsistent (at best) nature of defensive stats, im not sure WAR is a helpful argument
I agree, defensive metrics are a mess, but even so, defensive WAR has Molina lapping the field compared to his contemporaries. His offensive metrics (that are more easily quantifiable) say he’s not great at the plate.
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Shakespeare
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Shakespeare »

Zip City wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:i dont have a strong take on molinas merits in particular (beyond thinking he will get in as a writers darling) but considering the lowered bar for offensive production by a catcher and the inconsistent (at best) nature of defensive stats, im not sure WAR is a helpful argument
I agree, defensive metrics are a mess, but even so, defensive WAR has Molina lapping the field compared to his contemporaries. His offensive metrics (that are more easily quantifiable) say he’s not great at the plate.
kinda funny that for what i imagine will be a fairly divisive candidate, the eye test and the advanced metrics pretty much agree on what molina is, the only difference being whether that warrants induction

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Re: MLB 2018

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Molina has neck ink, so fuck him ;)
Does anyone need yet another politician, caught with his pants down and money sticking in his hole?

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Shakespeare
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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Shakespeare »

matt harvey DFA'd by the mets. refused a minor league assignment.

what a sad fall from grace thats been

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Re: MLB 2018

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Shakespeare wrote:matt harvey DFA'd by the mets. refused a minor league assignment.

what a sad fall from grace thats been
Hard for me to feel sorry for Harvey or the Mets who seem to have no idea how to handle pitchers from an organizational standpoint, despite hiring two experts on the subject in Callaway and pitching coach Dan Warthen.
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