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cortez the killer wrote:Sad to see Lester go (even though Boston did trade him to Oakland), but I completely understand the front office's unwillingness to go where Chicago did contractually. I'm sure the majority of Cubs fans are happy to see their club finally make a big splash in free agency. I have little doubt he will live up to the first half of that contract. It will be interesting to see if he can buck the trend and be a top-of-the-rotation stud for the latter half (he'll be 35, 36, 37 years old at that point). Either way, a bold move by Chicago and I hope he continues to pitch well.
That said, the Red Sox need to find some pitching. Where do they go next? Shields? Hamels? Zimmerman? Latos? McCarthy? Porcello? Leake? Ross? Kennedy? Boston has plenty of resources to make a few things happen. It will be interesting to see how things unfold over the coming weeks.
+1
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard
i never really got the lester appeal from the cubs perspective, to be honest
they need an ace, but theyre still at least a year or two away from contending. a guy in lesters position seemed best suited for a win now team that would be okay with paying for his declining years if it gets them a world series in the first few years of the deal. the cubs dont fit that bill. instead theyll be wasting a year or two of his prime and hoping he gets them a world series while starting to decline. i get that hamels/zimmermann asking prices were probably too high, and i dont doubt lester will still be a great starting pitcher in 2-4 years it just seems like odd timing to me
Shakespeare wrote:i never really got the lester appeal from the cubs perspective, to be honest
they need an ace, but theyre still at least a year or two away from contending. a guy in lesters position seemed best suited for a win now team that would be okay with paying for his declining years if it gets them a world series in the first few years of the deal. the cubs dont fit that bill. instead theyll be wasting a year or two of his prime and hoping he gets them a world series while starting to decline. i get that hamels/zimmermann asking prices were probably too high, and i dont doubt lester will still be a great starting pitcher in 2-4 years it just seems like odd timing to me
See Jayson Stark's piece on ESPN.com. The theory is that this accelerates the Cubs' timetable and makes them a contender now. Whether that's a correct evaluation of the status of the team and its core young players is the $155 million question. Messrs. Epstein and Hoyer will be particularly interested in the answer.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard
i can see that. i assume, if nothing else, its a pr move a la loria backing the brinks truck up for stanton
i guess i just view a free agent ace as that last piece you add when your team is so close to ready, and this strikes me as too soon. of course theres also the matter of who would be available next offseason
but its obviously too soon to judge it fairly either way. itll be an interesting contract to look back on
Shakespeare wrote:i can see that. i assume, if nothing else, its a pr move a la loria backing the brinks truck up for stanton
i guess i just view a free agent ace as that last piece you add when your team is so close to ready, and this strikes me as too soon. of course theres also the matter of who would be available next offseason
but its obviously too soon to judge it fairly either way. itll be an interesting contract to look back on
I think Lester is the piece they need because it signals to other teams/agents/players that they're out of rebuild mode and serious about contending.
I also really like what the rotation is looking like, with Lester, Arrieta, Hendricks and Hammel.
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever
Shakespeare wrote:i can see that. i assume, if nothing else, its a pr move a la loria backing the brinks truck up for stanton
i guess i just view a free agent ace as that last piece you add when your team is so close to ready, and this strikes me as too soon. of course theres also the matter of who would be available next offseason
but its obviously too soon to judge it fairly either way. itll be an interesting contract to look back on
I think Lester is the piece they need because it signals to other teams/agents/players that they're out of rebuild mode and serious about contending.
I also really like what the rotation is looking like, with Lester, Arrieta, Hendricks and Hammel.
Not a Hendricks fan but there are a lot of arms. This year will be fun.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
Shakespeare wrote:i never really got the lester appeal from the cubs perspective, to be honest
they need an ace, but theyre still at least a year or two away from contending. a guy in lesters position seemed best suited for a win now team that would be okay with paying for his declining years if it gets them a world series in the first few years of the deal. the cubs dont fit that bill. instead theyll be wasting a year or two of his prime and hoping he gets them a world series while starting to decline. i get that hamels/zimmermann asking prices were probably too high, and i dont doubt lester will still be a great starting pitcher in 2-4 years it just seems like odd timing to me
They're really not. They should at least be in at the deadline and there are already rumors that they aren't done now. I think they're a 85-88 win team right now and could get better.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
interesting. ill defer to your opinion on this one then. the reds look to be rebuilding so at least theres one nl central contender likely out of the way
between lester, rollins, dee gordon, and rumors of a nats blockbuster trade, this has been quite a day for the baseball dirt sheets
Shakespeare wrote:i never really got the lester appeal from the cubs perspective, to be honest
they need an ace, but theyre still at least a year or two away from contending. a guy in lesters position seemed best suited for a win now team that would be okay with paying for his declining years if it gets them a world series in the first few years of the deal. the cubs dont fit that bill. instead theyll be wasting a year or two of his prime and hoping he gets them a world series while starting to decline. i get that hamels/zimmermann asking prices were probably too high, and i dont doubt lester will still be a great starting pitcher in 2-4 years it just seems like odd timing to me
They're really not. They should at least be in at the deadline and there are already rumors that they aren't done now. I think they're a 85-88 win team right now and could get better.
Miley Cyrus or Dwayne Wade? Not that anybody asked me, but i don't get this somewhere-between-rumored-and-actual deal for Wade Miley. Anybody got any insight?
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard
beantownbubba wrote:Miley Cyrus or Dwayne Wade? Not that anybody asked me, but i don't get this somewhere-between-rumored-and-actual deal for Wade Miley. Anybody got any insight?
Miley is the definition of a tweener MOR. His lifetime ERA and FIP are an identical 3.79 which is abut high for a #3 starter but better than most 4's.He's a soft throwing (92 mph fastball) ground ball pitcher with a nice slider. His control was quite good until last season where his walk rate was higher when one would like. I had wanted the Cubs to trade for him but thought the cost was higher than what Boston paid. He's 28 with 3 more full years of team control. Nice rotation piece and a good trade for the Red Sox IMO.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
Tequila Cowboy wrote:Where Lester signs is going to be very interesting. I still think Boston's offer is a little low and I think the Cubs would have to go higher than Boston to get him because all things being equal I think he'd rather be a Red Sox. My guess though is that Boston won't go much higher than 6 years/$130 million and I think the cubs will offer 6/years $140 million and he'll be a Cub. Of course if St. Louis is serious everything changes. We'll all see won't we?
very close w/ the Sox bid...15MM under for the Cubs bid.
In addition to Miley & Porcello, the Red Sox just signed Justin Masterson. They're stockpiling arms in Beantown. It's unclear at this stage whether they are going the "we need as many quality starting pitchers as possible" route or if they are doing so in an effort to flip one or two along with prospects in a larger deal (Hamels? Zimmerman? Cueto?). Considering the limitations of the 40-man roster, I hope it is the latter.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
- DPM
cortez the killer wrote:In addition to Miley & Porcello, the Red Sox just signed Justin Masterson. They're stockpiling arms in Beantown. It's unclear at this stage whether they are going the "we need as many quality starting pitchers as possible" route or if they are doing so in an effort to flip one or two along with prospects in a larger deal (Hamels? Zimmerman? Cueto?). Considering the limitations of the 40-man roster, I hope it is the latter.
Yeah, I'm not really sure of the strategy here. They already had a bunch of mediocre middle of the road starters. Despite TC's fine and appreciated explanation I still don't get the Miley deal. I like Porcello but that's much more on the small sample of the games i've seen him pitch rather than his overall stats/performance. IOW, if he's still improving and can be better than his numbers, great, I like it (though i liked Cespedes too) but if he's just going to pitch to his numbers, i think it's a mistake. I've always been a Masterson fan and feel that he's been this close to stardom more than once. So he gets the benefit of the doubt from me (including assuming that last season's numbers were very affected by injuries), but again, the numbers are not exactly exciting. The Sox did manage to clear some of the logjam in the outfield but that's obviously of far less concern than straightening out the rotation. And i still want Andrew Miller back
Meanwhile, what's up w/ the Tigers? They have 2 of the best bats in the league in Cabrera and V Martinez and their problems the past 2 seasons have been on the pitching front, so they...trade a stalwart middle of the rotation guy, theyll likely lose scherzer, Verlander is a question mark and they've added another bat to a lineup that was probably going to score enough runs anyway. What am i missing?
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard
cortez the killer wrote:In addition to Miley & Porcello, the Red Sox just signed Justin Masterson. They're stockpiling arms in Beantown. It's unclear at this stage whether they are going the "we need as many quality starting pitchers as possible" route or if they are doing so in an effort to flip one or two along with prospects in a larger deal (Hamels? Zimmerman? Cueto?). Considering the limitations of the 40-man roster, I hope it is the latter.
Yeah, I'm not really sure of the strategy here. They already had a bunch of mediocre middle of the road starters. Despite TC's fine and appreciated explanation I still don't get the Miley deal. I like Porcello but that's much more on the small sample of the games i've seen him pitch rather than his overall stats/performance. IOW, if he's still improving and can be better than his numbers, great, I like it (though i liked Cespedes too) but if he's just going to pitch to his numbers, i think it's a mistake. I've always been a Masterson fan and feel that he's been this close to stardom more than once. So he gets the benefit of the doubt from me (including assuming that last season's numbers were very affected by injuries), but again, the numbers are not exactly exciting. The Sox did manage to clear some of the logjam in the outfield but that's obviously of far less concern than straightening out the rotation. And i still want Andrew Miller back
Meanwhile, what's up w/ the Tigers? They have 2 of the best bats in the league in Cabrera and V Martinez and their problems the past 2 seasons have been on the pitching front, so they...trade a stalwart middle of the rotation guy, theyll likely lose scherzer, Verlander is a question mark and they've added another bat to a lineup that was probably going to score enough runs anyway. What am i missing?
My gut tells me Detroit will just bite the damned bullet and sign Scherzer for something like 7/$200 and call it a day. I wouldn't do that with a gun to my head but I think they may have to. They've supposedly been trying to lock up Price and he won't bite (likely because he sees how bad Detroit is going to be in a couple of years) but Scherzer is said to be in it strictly for the money so if they bowl him over I think he's going to sign.
As far as Boston there seems to be speculation that the pitcher stockpiling is for use to get Hamels. That's more of a national opinion though so maybe you guys are hearing differently. Does Boston have any interest in Jordan Zimmermann? Based on what Samardzija went for you wouldn't think the price would be that high from Washington.
edit: Looks like Detroit is out on Scherzer.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
cortez the killer wrote:In addition to Miley & Porcello, the Red Sox just signed Justin Masterson. They're stockpiling arms in Beantown. It's unclear at this stage whether they are going the "we need as many quality starting pitchers as possible" route or if they are doing so in an effort to flip one or two along with prospects in a larger deal (Hamels? Zimmerman? Cueto?). Considering the limitations of the 40-man roster, I hope it is the latter.
I'm disappointed that Boston got Masterson as I was hoping he would come to the Cubs but I do realize I will find no sympathy from Red Sox fans on that one. Now the Cubs are looking at Jake Peavy and Brett Masterson for a middle rotation spot and I really don't like either one very much. Masterson has a lot of upside if he can find his form.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
Tequila Cowboy wrote:As far as Boston there seems to be speculation that the pitcher stockpiling is for use to get Hamels. That's more of a national opinion though so maybe you guys are hearing differently. Does Boston have any interest in Jordan Zimmermann? Based on what Samardzija went for you wouldn't think the price would be that high from Washington.
There has been speculation about Hamels in Boston ever since the initial contract talks between the Red Sox & Lester broke down during the season. The problem w/ Hamels, as I mentioned up-thread, is that he is not cheap and he will cost prospects. There's been a lot of speculation about players like Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and Owens being part of a package to get Hamels. I don't think Boston is interested in parting with any of those players/prospects AND paying Hamels 5/$110. Zimmerman has been mentioned, but is Washington willing to deal him? Washington is a playoff-caliber team. While I understand Zimmerman is approaching the final year of his contract, he is still a valuable asset in Washington's quest to win in 2015. Considering you have him for only a year, it's not like he will bring a sizable return like a pitcher with 3+ years of control in prime years would. I'm hearing Boston is exploring signing Shields, but I doubt they will want to go beyond 4 years. I'm hearing Shields is looking for at least 5 years and at least 20 million/year. Sale is a name that pops up, but there is very little chance of that happening. Cueto is a hot name, too. If the Reds don't believe they have a chance in '15, I imagine he could be available. They just traded Latos, so who knows? If Boston can somehow get Shields somewhere around 4/$88 million, I like that plan. If not, Cueto seems like the most attractive option, although nobody seems to have an idea what it'll cost in terms of prospects.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
- DPM
The Reds' window has slammed shut, so they are going to trade off parts. They've publicly stated they need to shed 15-20 million in payroll, which was started with the Latos trade. They have to evaluate whether Cueto will garner more now or at the deadline
Cespedes for Porcello seems like the classic "change of scenery" swap
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever
Zip City wrote:The Reds' window has slammed shut, so they are going to trade off parts. They've publicly stated they need to shed 15-20 million in payroll, which was started with the Latos trade. They have to evaluate whether Cueto will garner more now or at the deadline
Cespedes for Porcello seems like the classic "change of scenery" swap
The Reds claim to just be re-tooling, but we'll see. Simon is not a significant loss, I think he just had his career season last year. Latos being gone will hurt unless Cingrani returns to form. Those contracts with Phillips and Votto are killing this team though, especially if Votto's knee never heals correctly.
Tequila Cowboy wrote:As far as Boston there seems to be speculation that the pitcher stockpiling is for use to get Hamels. That's more of a national opinion though so maybe you guys are hearing differently. Does Boston have any interest in Jordan Zimmermann? Based on what Samardzija went for you wouldn't think the price would be that high from Washington.
There has been speculation about Hamels in Boston ever since the initial contract talks between the Red Sox & Lester broke down during the season. The problem w/ Hamels, as I mentioned up-thread, is that he is not cheap and he will cost prospects. There's been a lot of speculation about players like Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and Owens being part of a package to get Hamels. I don't think Boston is interested in parting with any of those players/prospects AND paying Hamels 5/$110. Zimmerman has been mentioned, but is Washington willing to deal him? Washington is a playoff-caliber team. While I understand Zimmerman is approaching the final year of his contract, he is still a valuable asset in Washington's quest to win in 2015. Considering you have him for only a year, it's not like he will bring a sizable return like a pitcher with 3+ years of control in prime years would. I'm hearing Boston is exploring signing Shields, but I doubt they will want to go beyond 4 years. I'm hearing Shields is looking for at least 5 years and at least 20 million/year. Sale is a name that pops up, but there is very little chance of that happening. Cueto is a hot name, too. If the Reds don't believe they have a chance in '15, I imagine he could be available. They just traded Latos, so who knows? If Boston can somehow get Shields somewhere around 4/$88 million, I like that plan. If not, Cueto seems like the most attractive option, although nobody seems to have an idea what it'll cost in terms of prospects.
The problem all along with any possible Hamels trade was that Amaro Jr. was asking way too much but now with the Lester signing and the talk that Scherzer could sign for 7 years/$200 million it makes Hamels deal cheap by comparison and the price doesn't seem so crazy. It's going to take someone's #1 prospect to get it done and at least another near ready MLB projected player.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
So free agency is still moving along with the biggest fish left being Max Scherzer and as was always inevitable it come down to the Yankees. Scott Boras has apparently told all potential suitors that Scherzer will take no less than $200 million and is prepared to go well into the new year to wait for that. With that declaration the Tigers promptly declared themselves out for his services. The Giants and Red Sox have entered a bidding war for James Shields and neither is really interested in spending $200 mil. I just read a piece that stated in no uncertain terms that after missing the playoffs for the last two years the Yankees have no choice but to sign Scherzer and should simply fork over the $200 mil and be done with it, once again bidding against themselves and proving that Scott Boras sets payroll in MLB. I guess my question is this; will NY sink into the sea if the Yankees miss the playoffs again? NY has very quietly made some nice moves in the lower levels of the minor leagues and could have some trade pieces in a year or two and their MLB pitching is not destitute so why do this now? I realize the AL East is always tough but Tampa Bay isn't a factor, Baltimore may not be as good and even if they get Shields the Red Sox are a good but not world dominance type of club. I'd call Toronto the early favorite but my point is the division is competitive and the Yankees are a factor. Listen I know the Yankees can't lose on purpose line the Cubs did but can't they wait to get better incrementally? I'd let Boras and Scherzer twist in the wind.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
it is interesting that pretty much the consensus top free agent on the market hasnt even been reliably linked to any team yet.
i do think the yankees are still heavily in play but i wouldnt rule detroit out. boras' asking price is going to drop, the $200m or nothing demand is just him doing his job, plus drew/morales last year are a sort of cautionary tale against holding out as long as possible (not that theyre on max's talent level by any means). if dombrowski cant get anywhere close to an extension with price i think youll see him make a play to bring scherzer back, cuz with price in his last year and verlanders potentially ongoing issues, they could suddenly lack shutdown pitching. detroits window is closing fast, and their owner is old as shit and really wants a trophy. theyre already at the point where theyll be hamstrung in a few years by various megadeals. whats one more in the mix.
ill probably eat these words soon but it really seems like cashman is trying to steer the yankees in a more financially responsible direction.
Shakespeare wrote:it is interesting that pretty much the consensus top free agent on the market hasnt even been reliably linked to any team yet.
i do think the yankees are still heavily in play but i wouldnt rule detroit out. boras' asking price is going to drop, the $200m or nothing demand is just him doing his job, plus drew/morales last year are a sort of cautionary tale against holding out as long as possible (not that theyre on max's talent level by any means). if dombrowski cant get anywhere close to an extension with price i think youll see him make a play to bring scherzer back, cuz with price in his last year and verlanders potentially ongoing issues, they could suddenly lack shutdown pitching. detroits window is closing fast, and their owner is old as shit and really wants a trophy. theyre already at the point where theyll be hamstrung in a few years by various megadeals. whats one more in the mix.
ill probably eat these words soon but it really seems like cashman is trying to steer the yankees in a more financially responsible direction.
Starting with your last point, I think Cashman does want to be more financially responsible but is that possible in NY? They are the only team negotiating with Scherzer and Boras is simply waiting on them to say yes to his demands. He was always going to get 25% or more than Lester and that's what Boras is asking. Quite a bit down from the 7/$230 that was said to be the starting point. I think Cortez is probably close at 7/$180 but I think it might go as high as $195. NY has always reacted to media and fans desires and they're demanding this. Again I'd tell Boras to go screw but will they do that? Unlikely.
As far as Detroit Dombrowski said they were done yesterday. Will they get back in? Seems unlikely. I think it's more likely that they try to make a deal for Hamels or your boy Zimmermann who seems destined to go sooner rather than later. There's also Johnny Cueto and I think Sonny Gray will be traded before long as Billy Beane collects prospects for another run in 2-3 years. Of course they might end up with nothing. Detroit is in a win at all costs mode but all of a sudden they're in very tough division. I don't think that KC is going away even with the loss of Shields, Cleveland should be healthy and the White Sox are suddenly a factor with the best starting rotation in the division. Verlander's contract is a disaster and it wouldn't shock me if they were out if it at the deadline.
Funny that in Chicago that the Lester honeymoon has lasted all of 4 days and now with the news that they're nearly out of money and probably aren't going all in until at least the deadline, Cubs fans are up in arms. Easy to get overexcited but the goal of this team is to be in at the deadline and because it's baseball anything can happen then. There's more evaluating yo do and the debt service incurred in the sale of the club does limit their payroll at least until some new 2015 revenue kicks in. By 2016 I expect them to go all out to win the WS. If somehow that happens in 2015 after some deadline moves that's a bonus.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
