Sandusky, guilty

[Zip City]

Have I ever mentioned how much I hate the NCAA? Well, they've done it again.

What does it mean to fine a public university $60 million? Sounds to me like a tax on the people of Pennsylvania, that's what. Where's that money going to come from? Who gets hurt by it? Absurd.

I've never understood the concept of vacating wins (i.e. changing history by a stroke of the pen) but again, that's the NCAA for you. It is an effective stiletto in the ribs to the Paterno family, however. Not sure how i feel about that.

the vacated wins are meaningless. PSU won those games on the field, the players know they won them, and no one cares about the record books.

I think they said that the $60 million will all come from gross football revenue

[beantownbubba]

I think they said that the $60 million will all come from gross football revenue

That's just more football think, like the football team is somehow separate from the university and that its money is somehow different, like it doesn't belong to the people of Pennsylvania. I really don't get this.

If I wasn't clear, i agree w/ u on the vacated wins thing. It does ding the Paterno family because they seem to care very much about Joe's legacy (no surprise) and Joe will more or less be written out of the official record book.

[Clams]

I think they said that the $60 million will all come from gross football revenue

which the school uses to fund all of its other athletic programs, from men's and women's swimming and volleyball, to baseball, softball, fencing, gymnastics and field hockey, etc. So where's that money going to come from now? Tuition increases and tax dollars, that's where. Fuck the NCAA.

[sg207]

What a ridiculous "penalty." So the taxpayers will either have to fork over more money or the University will have to make cuts, which apparently will not be the football program since it's still going.

The vacated wins are a nice jab at Paterno, but nobody really gives a shit, as others have said. They still made the money from all the popularity, and it's not like they've won a championship in that time frame.

Nice to see the NCAA get up to be all high and mighty, and then give little more than a slap on the wrist.

The NCAA is "unprecedented" in lameness.

[Tequila Cowboy]

One problem I have with this, among many better said by others above, is that in the absence of the "death penalty" the student athletes are still bound by NCAA transfer rules. With the "death penalty" they could have transferred immediately. That's really unfortunate for these athletes. At least that's how I understand it, unless I missed something.

[sg207]

One problem I have with this, among many better said by others above, is that in the absence of the "death penalty" the student athletes are still bound by NCAA transfer rules. With the "death penalty" they could have transferred immediately. That's really unfortunate for these athletes. At least that's how I understand it, unless I missed something.

I thought I saw that the players will be allowed to transfer and compete immediately.

If that's not the case, I agree it is ridiculous.

[joelle]

other sanctions include a four-year ban on bowl games, the loss of 20 scholarships per year over four years and five years' probation. The NCAA also said that any current or incoming football players are free to immediately transfer and compete at another school.

NCAA President Mark Emmert announced the staggering sanctions at a news conference in Indianapolis. Though the NCAA stopped short of imposing the "death penalty" — shutting down the Nittany Lions' program completely — the punishment is still crippling for a team that is trying to start over with a new coach and a new outlook.




they can transfer

[Tequila Cowboy]

Ok good. Thanks for clarifying Joelle.

[cortez the killer]

What does it mean to fine a public university $60 million? Sounds to me like a tax on the people of Pennsylvania, that's what. Where's that money going to come from? Who gets hurt by it? Absurd.

I just heard the $60 million will be 5 installments of $12 million into a fund to assist victims of sexual abuse.

[cortez the killer]

I think they said that the $60 million will all come from gross football revenue

That's just more football think, like the football team is somehow separate from the university and that its money is somehow different, like it doesn't belong to the people of Pennsylvania. I really don't get this.

Yes Bubba. Even though PSU is a "public" university, I'm pretty sure the football program has its own endowment or "Friends of Penn State" football fund. I highly doubt the money will come anywhere but from the football program.

[Bill in CT]

I think they said that the $60 million will all come from gross football revenue

which the school uses to fund all of its other athletic programs, from men's and women's swimming and volleyball, to baseball, softball, fencing, gymnastics and field hockey, etc. So where's that money going to come from now? Tuition increases and tax dollars, that's where. Fuck the NCAA.

They would have lost far more than $60 million if the "death penalty" had been imposed. That was apparently being discussed as a possibility. In that case, even more money would have had to been made up from tuition increases and tax dollars. So what do you suggest that the NCAA should have done?

[cortez the killer]

Looks like no death penalty. Can't understand that.

This is far worse than any "death penalty." These sanctions will cripple Penn State football for about a decade.

[beantownbubba]

Just speculating here, but I think there's a fun legal case to be made challenging the NCAA's right to impose this kind of financial penalty on a public institution. Something along the lines of it's a disguised tax beyond the powers of the NCAA to impose; or the fine's so large it's in the nature of a criminal penalty which is also not in the NCAA's power; or it's in effect a judgment about issues that have not been resolved in court or in any formal setting because Sandusky's the only one who's been convicted and he's not "paying" any of these penalties, cash or otherwise so it's a denial of due process as well as being an inappropriate criminal penalty on the wrong parties. I haven't researched any of this, it's all off the top of my head, but like i said, it could be big fun.

As others have implied the immediate transfer ruling could actually be the most devastating aspect to the football program and the new coach. I can only imagine the behind the scenes maneuvering going on right now as officials try to convince kids that they should be "loyal" to the school, whatever that means.

[beantownbubba]

Yes, the funds are going to sexual abuse related programs. So what? I don't see what that changes.

And as I've said before, money is fungible - it doesn't matter what account the checks are written on - in the end it's the people of Pennsylvania and the actual and potential students of Penn State that will pay. How is that fair and how is that even w/in the NCAA's power or authority?

Penalties have to fit the crime, which means first and foremost punishing the right parties. For the same reason, I'm not in favor of the death penalty, and not because of the financial impact (though that's relevant). "The football program" didn't do this and the individuals who did do this are either (a) convicted, (b) fired or (c) dead. Yes, several of those individuals were acting in their official capacities representing PSU so some penalties against the university are appropriate but at the end of the day, this isn't the NCAA's jurisdiction and it's ill equipped to deal w/ it.

[cortez the killer]

Ultimately, the NCAA is penalizing Penn State and Penn State Football. I agree with you bubba in that "the football program didn't do this," but the football program and the University enabled and allowed the situation to continue. The individuals (board members, former president, former vice president, former head coach, former defensive coordinator) all paid, or will pay an individual price, but they ultimately worked for and represented the University, and now it's time for the University to pay a price. From what I've gathered, the new president of Penn State is completely on board with the sanctions, so it sounds like the chance of a lawsuit is slim. I think Penn State wants to move forward and begin the healing process ASAP.

[cortez the killer]

Yes, the funds are going to sexual abuse related programs. So what? I don't see what that changes.

The power and prestige Joe Paterno and Penn State Football enjoyed for decades was rooted in the amount of money the football program generated. While some of us like to believe the fairly tale that major, Division I college football is about student-athletes, developing men, instilling pride in a university or community, and all those great things, that's not really what matters most. It's all about the money. With these sanctions, Penn State & its football program suffer a severe financial hit. Programs designed to educate, prevent, and assist victims of sexual abuse receive a $60 million dollar "donation." I don't see a problem with this. As the forthcoming civil suits start rolling in against Penn State, then I think you will see a more tangible hit toward the academic programs and the University itself.

[beantownbubba]

Ultimately, the NCAA is penalizing Penn State and Penn State Football. I agree with you bubba in that "the football program didn't do this," but the football program and the University enabled and allowed the situation to continue. The individuals (board members, former president, former vice president, former head coach, former defensive coordinator) all paid, or will pay an individual price, but they ultimately worked for and represented the University, and now it's time for the University to pay a price. From what I've gathered, the new president of Penn State is completely on board with the sanctions, so it sounds like the chance of a lawsuit is slim. I think Penn State wants to move forward and begin the healing process ASAP.

Oh yeah, no question: If there's a lawsuit at all (and remember i was just doing some fun speculating) it will come from a state politician looking for headlines, a taxpayer/taxpayer group or a student/student group. I don't see how the new president has any choice but to be on board w/ the sanctions - he's between a whole bunch of rocks and even more hard places.

I agree that the institution/administration needs to pay a penalty for exactly the reason you say, Cortez. What I'm saying is that the NCAA has only the crudest tools to deal w/ a very difficult situation that is really beyond its mandate. So, sure, if they came up w/ a smaller fine, say $5 million (and how was that $60 million arrived at, anyway?) many people would say it's just a slap on the wrist, and they'd probably be right. The point is that the NCAA exercising jurisdiction over this problem is just a bad fit that leads to bad results.

Oh, and worst case, what if all the victims sue and there's not enough money to pay them all because the NCAA got there first?

Another way to say this is that it's not really a sports story, it's a criminal matter that happened to take place in a sports setting.

[beantownbubba]

[ As the forthcoming civil suits start rolling in against Penn State, then I think you will see a more tangible hit toward the academic programs and the University itself.

Yep. I guess what i'm saying is that's more appropriate.

[cortez the killer]

Another way to say this is that it's not really a sports story, it's a criminal matter that happened to take place in a sports setting.

Sorry bubba, but that's an incredibly simplistic way to look at this situation. I know you break out in a rash when that dirty word 'context' is throw out there, but you can't ignore the enormous shadow Joe Paterno & the football program cast over the university.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Ultimately, the NCAA is penalizing Penn State and Penn State Football. I agree with you bubba in that "the football program didn't do this," but the football program and the University enabled and allowed the situation to continue. The individuals (board members, former president, former vice president, former head coach, former defensive coordinator) all paid, or will pay an individual price, but they ultimately worked for and represented the University, and now it's time for the University to pay a price. From what I've gathered, the new president of Penn State is completely on board with the sanctions, so it sounds like the chance of a lawsuit is slim. I think Penn State wants to move forward and begin the healing process ASAP.

This is spot on Cortez. I guess my only point is that in some ways the football program did do this. Paterno, for all intents and purposes, WAS the program and the Freeh report backed that up in that his "superiors" deferred to him.

[cortez the killer]

[ As the forthcoming civil suits start rolling in against Penn State, then I think you will see a more tangible hit toward the academic programs and the University itself.

Yep. I guess what i'm saying is that's more appropriate.

And I guess what I'm saying is that the NCAA is exacting its pound of flesh from the football program. The victims and their families are still sharpening their knives with regards to the university.

[beantownbubba]

Another way to say this is that it's not really a sports story, it's a criminal matter that happened to take place in a sports setting.

Sorry bubba, but that's an incredibly simplistic way to look at this situation. I know you break out in a rash when that dirty word 'context' is throw out there, but you can't ignore the enormous shadow Joe Paterno & the football program cast over the university.

Nah, I think that it's more of an incredibly simplistic way of interpreting what I said.

The questions are: Who deserves to be punished? How should they be punished? To what extent were the events at the center of this controversy, i.e. the abuse of boys by Jerry Sandusky aided, abetted, exacerbated, etc by the football culture of Penn State and the power of the program and its leader? How should that football culture and power be changed? I don't think the NCAA's approach is the correct answer to any of these questions. In particular, the NCAA's moral authority here is in serious doubt since the NCAA is made up of a whole bunch of schools, any number of whose football cultures could have led to the same results and we don't see the NCAA doing anything to rein in that culture. In fact, it would be an absurd negation of what that organization is if it did so. So who are they to be deciding these questions? Maybe they should penalize themselves while they're at it?

[cortez the killer]

Another way to say this is that it's not really a sports story, it's a criminal matter that happened to take place in a sports setting.

Sorry bubba, but that's an incredibly simplistic way to look at this situation. I know you break out in a rash when that dirty word 'context' is throw out there, but you can't ignore the enormous shadow Joe Paterno & the football program cast over the university.

Nah, I think that it's more of an incredibly simplistic way of interpreting what I said.

Priceless.

[Lone Wolf1]

Looks like no death penalty. Can't understand that.

This is far worse than any "death penalty." These sanctions will cripple Penn State football for about a decade.

that's awesome. the way it should be

[Duke Silver]

Has ESPN trotted out that giant boob Matt Millen yet?

[RevMatt]

For years the Penn State program benefited from the myth that Joe Paterno was the one honest man in a dirty business. First, that is not true. There are other Division One programs that are strict on the academics. Notre Dame is one example of this. When I attended Syracuse I had several friends who were on the football team and can attest that even bonafide NFL prospects were booted from the program during the years I was there. Paterno's myth developed in part because Penn State was the premier football program in the northeast. Syracuse, Pitt, Temple, Rutgers, Boston are all second tier when compared with Penn State during the Paterno era. The New York sports writers created the Paterno myth during a time when top programs like Miami and others were constantly getting sanctions from the NCAA. Paterno became Saint Joe Paterno. However, it was never that simple. If Paterno coached in another region of the country where college football is king he would have been one of several coaches who emphasize academics. But he ran the one consistently successful program in the northeast which fed the legend.

Reality? Great coach but the creation of the Paterno myth and the institution's protection of that myth made for an atmosphere where Sandusky's crimes were swept under the rug. Bobby Knight emphasized academics. But there was never any attempt to make a saint out of a maniac. In the end Indiana let him go. However, if one of Bobby Knight's assistants did what Sandusky did nobody would have swept it under the rug to protect Knight. Especially Bobby Knight himself.

We have to stop making sports "mean" something more than they actually do. Pretty hard to do this because every sports fan is romantic about it.

[The Black Canary]

I have read and re-read this thread a few times and my question is why??? why is this such a debate??

Penn State knew what was going on, Sandusky used his position like a talent agent for Ford Modeling Agency.

No one gave a shit about what he did, made absolutely no effort to stop this horrific act upon children and sat on their self righteous hands but once someone came forward. Now molesting children/teenagers is wrong. Fuck you Paterno and the rest of your evil Penn State crew!!!!

[Tequila Cowboy]

I don't think it is a debate BC, and you have it right there shouldn't even be a discussion. That being said there are still a lot of Penn State supporters that are so invested in the Paterno mythos that they can't accept what's happened. I guess it's just the very human reaction known as denial. Of course it's also disrespectful of the victims and incomprehensible to the rest of us but in time this too shall pass. Deadspin.com has been doing excellent work on this story btw.

[Zip City]

I'm a 25 year+ PSU fan and I won't debate the guilt of the school.

Now whether the NCAA overstepped its authority is another issue all together, but those emotionally invested often can't parse the two debates.

There is definitely some insanity on my Facebook feed from PSU faithful

[Smitty]

I do feel bad for all the truly innocent who were hurt by this.