The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Clams
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Clams »

LBRod wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:57 pm
I need a never my president bumper sticker.
I've got this on the back of my car
Image
The world is run by fools, they’re evil to the core

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

LBRod wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:23 pm
Lighten up, Bubba. It helps to learn to enjoy the ridiculousness.
For the entertainment value.
I actually tried that for a week or 10 days and it mostly worked. But at this point it's hard to interpret the unfolding events as being anything other than preparation for or the early stages of an attempted coup and I don't see a lot to laugh about in that. What the fuck is the man doing wooing Michigan state legislators? :shock: :shock: :shock: Republican silence and pretzel twisting is no longer funny either. There's a country at stake here.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by chuckrh »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:42 pm
LBRod wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:23 pm
Lighten up, Bubba. It helps to learn to enjoy the ridiculousness.
For the entertainment value.
I actually tried that for a week or 10 days and it mostly worked. But at this point it's hard to interpret the unfolding events as being anything other than preparation for or the early stages of an attempted coup and I don't see a lot to laugh about in that. What the fuck is the man doing wooing Michigan state legislators? :shock: :shock: :shock: Republican silence and pretzel twisting is no longer funny either. There's a country at stake here.
Hope you know I'm with you, bubba. It's frightening.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:42 pm
LBRod wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:23 pm
Lighten up, Bubba. It helps to learn to enjoy the ridiculousness.
For the entertainment value.
I actually tried that for a week or 10 days and it mostly worked. But at this point it's hard to interpret the unfolding events as being anything other than preparation for or the early stages of an attempted coup and I don't see a lot to laugh about in that. What the fuck is the man doing wooing Michigan state legislators? :shock: :shock: :shock: Republican silence and pretzel twisting is no longer funny either. There's a country at stake here.
That's what he's been trying to do all along, but it's not going to work.

It's no less terrifying, but I've expected this from him from Day 1. Either that he would lose the Election and refuse to leave office, or that he'd win re-election and just start running for a 2nd term.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

LBRod wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:23 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:41 pm


How are those 2 situations equivalent?
I thought the actions of the far left after the 2016 election were ridiculous.
I think the Trumpistas tizzy now is also ridiculous.
That does not mean they are the same.
Lighten up, Bubba. It helps to learn to enjoy the ridiculousness.
For the entertainment value.


I miss George
Now it's dark.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

I'm starting to come around to Rod's way of thinking. I don't know if that should scare him or me more.
Now it's dark.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by schlanky »

Flea wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:22 pm
I miss George
I do too.
Let the outside air in

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:44 am
Interesting, JohnA, but I want to be clear on one important point. Is it your sense that they're mad about the election results, i.e. the results did not meet pre-election projections/expectations or are they mad about Trump's post-election behavior?
The woman who started the ball rolling in the discussion was mad about Trump's post-election behavior. The underlying overall grudge is that Trump and all his supporters, all seventy-odd million of them, still exist. In other news, only one of these not unhappy families is significantly unlike the others:

The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

The intermediate step down between our two entertainment-first presidents, Reagan and Trump, was Clinton. Clinton was neither so destructive of the working class as Reagan nor as joyously venal and self-serving as Trump, but he did a darned good job on both fronts and is pretty much their equal.

For those of you who've forgotten that Clinton was basically Trump dialed down a little and married to intelligence:



For once, I understand a questionable casting decision by Lorne Michaels. Darrell Hammond was indeed the best Trump on SNL--even Trump said so. But seeing him play the two most similar presidents in the viewers' lifetimes would have been confusing. Politically valid, but SNL's politics are shit.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Hey, Iowan, this bug's for you:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ic/617252/

If anyone out there wants to explain how "freedom" justifies this pestilence or better yet wants to explain why this virus simply isn't that bad, the floor is yours. Although more speculative you're also welcome to explain why you think the governor of Iowa should not be held to be at least criminally negligent in the deaths of hundreds, soon to be thousands, of the people she represents.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

She'll probably win re-election. Unless the Democrats get their shit together, change their marketing plan, and run some of the young smart moderate Dems that are rising in the state political ranks. In 2018 we elected a bunch of Democrats, and in 2020 went totally Republican. I don't know if the civil unrest and COVID pushed people to the right, or what, but we're stuck with this fucking clown for awhile I fear.

I was actually ok with her more hands off approach in the very early days of COVID, but her staunch refusal to not issue a mask mandate has been infuriating. It's a such simple, relatively effective measure. At least more effective than doing nothing.

As much as I can't stand Reynolds, one thing you won't see mentioned in that article is that things aren't much better (they're a little better, but it's still a shit show) in Draconian Shutdown Minnesota. They've been much more severe regarding COVID, and they still have a massive problem as well.

It's strange, I read an article like that, and then it strikes me that I still don't know anyone that has actually died from it. I know people who were extremely sick, and one who was lucky to survive, but I still don't know a single casualty, personally. And a lot of people I know are in the same boat. I think that makes it much easier for people not to take it seriously when 9 months into this thing they still haven't really felt a direct impact from the disease. I'm not suggesting that COVID isn't serious, but pointing out how the relative lack of an impact that this disease had on Iowa (for example) lead to an even more cavalier attitude that's largely responsible for the current situation.

If we had presented a coherent Federal strategy to fighting COVID back in March, there wouldn't be as much of an onus on each state to try to figure this out on their own.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

Iowan, you are 100% spot on. I don't even know anyone personally who's been infected. that said, i do exercise pretty stringent mask guidelines. the woman i am dating is an end-of-life doctor, so she has seen it up close a lot more than i have (and i don't want to compromise her health either).

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by boyyourself »

I think I heard Robb Wolf say that the further you deviate from nature the more illness there is. Makes sense to me.
Survival of the fittest makes sense to me as well. And I don't think the government or any one politician should be held responsible for high risk people having a hard time with Covid.

I'm in Texas now for my Aunts funeral. Technically it's a Covid death. She died with Covid. Maybe even from Covid, add it to the growing numbers. She was also 99 and living in a nursing home. Without Covid, who knows, she may have lived for months longer. Maybe even a year two. But no one should be blamed for her death. She died. That shit happens. It's part of the life cycle. Death is required for life.
When Covid first hit I didn't think my mom would survive it if she got it. She's 70 and a 50 yr smoker. I was wrong. She not only survived getting covid, she was only sick for a couple days. Same with my brother, step dad, and father.
These folk have strong immune systems. Outside a lot, connected, lifestyle with sense of purpose etc.
Folks that are hit the haredest are obese, lack vitamin D, zinc, etc. or have a host of other conditions, such as most nursing home patients. Most covid deaths have been in nursing homes. Makes sense to me.
And let's not forget the ginormous difference between dying from covid and dying with covid. This is when numbers lie. So the covid death numbers have been inflated all along.
Of course it spread like wildfire in prisons. And people die in prison. Happens all the time. It's easy to find data that will show you Covid deaths from prison. But Impossible to find real data that will delineate between prisoners who die from Covid and those that die With Covid. I think that sucks.

Back in Colorado, Telluride in particular has been very strict with masks and lock down orders. Even though no one in the whole town that's gotten it has presented much more than mild symptoms. Let alone died. It's an active outdoor community and people have strong immune there. And actually has record number of tourists in town all summer. Bringing in that Covid. It didn't wipe out anyone in town.
Down in the lowlands of western Colorado which may as well be Iowa or Texas---it's rural and agricultural----most people are not in favor of lockdowns. A lot of business never closed when Covid hit. Good for them.

The other day that decided to start calling hospitals myself. I called the Montrose hospital and asked if they were over worked and stressed from Covid patients. They said no. I called the Delta hospital. Same thing. I called the Grand Juntion Hospital. Same. Were they lying? None of them said anything about how they couldn't release that kind of info, they just said no.

Then I found out that the Montrose Hoapital just laid off 30-40 people. Reason being, as the Iowa article mentioned, there are no elective surgeries being scheduled. So it kinda mKes me wonder if this is happening all over. If hospitals and health care workers are so stressed, Then why are people getting laid off? And if they are stressed from covid then couldn't they be using those people instead of laying them off? Makes no sense to me.

The only thing that really makes sense to me is the money. In Colorado this summer, Governor Polis shut down farmers markets but left Wal Mart open. WTF? Now, Let's look at who is crushing it--McDonald's showing profit increase, Wal Mart, fucking AmaZon is through the roof. Where's all that packaging ending up? Where are all the to go containers and pizza boxes ending up?
Zoloft use--- sky high. Big pharma is absolutely killing right now. And that will never slow down at this point. Booze consumption way up.

Who is responsible for child abuse and domestic violence rising? I just don't think it's fair that a child has to be stuck at home with some abusive asshole because the kid can't go to school and the parent can't go to work. So I guess you could say I have compassion. But sorry, comparatively speaking, I don't have a lot of compassion for people that are high risk that could have, with personal responsibility, lived a lifestyle that was more conducive to not being high risk. Heart disease, tobacco, obesity---we've known a long time that these things are preventable deaths. And it seems like obese people and nursing home patients are by far getting crushed the hardest by Covid. So I think If you're high risk and you are worried. You should protect yourself. Otherwise, you should be able to go on with your life.


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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by rlipps »

I live in rural Kentucky in a very small town, so I do know a few people that have died from COVID. I think part of that, though, is living in such a small area, I pretty much know everyone. Also, most of the people that died had other underlying conditions, so I've heard tons of people use that to rationalize those deaths. I guess it makes them feel better to look at them and point out their other health problems that contributed to the deaths, while blindly ignoring the high rates of obesity, diabetes and other health conditions that are prominent in this area.

We've had some pretty strict guidelines from the state level since the beginning, but honestly, many small businesses aren't enforcing mask mandates, and I'm afraid we'll see another huge surge in cases around here during the holiday season.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

tinnitus photography wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:41 am
Iowan, you are 100% spot on. I don't even know anyone personally who's been infected. that said, i do exercise pretty stringent mask guidelines. the woman i am dating is an end-of-life doctor, so she has seen it up close a lot more than i have (and i don't want to compromise her health either).
Like you, I'm pretty stringent with my mask usage, and am far more concerned about not compromising others than I am my own health.

I really wish I could have gotten it right at the start of harvest, where I spend the day in 3 places: asleep at home, running the grain cart tractor, or in the CRV commuting between the two. I can go weeks without being inside with a person other than my wife during those runs.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Takeaway from that article for me wasn't about Covid shaming Iowa, or comparing severity, death rates, etc. The bottom line is, a leadership vacuum has cost lives. It's a shame that we don't have anything approaching CONSISTENT federal, state or even local guidance. The opening and closing of businesses and facilities sure is a tricky issue...but wearing a goddamn mask isn't. It's free. But this free act of shared safety has been compromised by freeDOM. Or maybe in this case, freeDUMB. I get not trusting the Government, I can understand that personal responsibility must be accounted for here. But, left to our own devices, Americans are clearly fumbling this issue, and the consequences are high. And we are dealing a subset of the population that chooses freeDUMB over a simple mask for a little while. Hell, we're dealing with a pretty good subset of the population that still honestly believes this is a hoax.

Lack of Leadership and consistent Government messaging is a major problem...but remember, we chose these leaders. We made the bed we're sleeping in...all of us...together.

“The government you elect is the government you deserve.” - Thomas Jefferson

Getting what we deserve is a hell of a lot more costly than I think most of us could have ever predicted. We have to all collectively take responsibility for fixing it, and start electing leadership we can trust. That isn't intended at all to be a partisan statement. This issue is systemic and has been growing for a few decades. Now we are dealing with the consequences. We need to take responsibility and fix it..together. Bitching about Government isn't going to get you anywhere...if you aren't happy with the way things are going down, than stand up and be responsible for the change.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

I'm the one COVID shaming our governor. She refused mask mandates just to kiss Trump's ass.

I'm not into COVID shaming other people, but this was such a no brainer decision that she resisted to a deathly end. And it's not like I think it's a silver bullet. It's just so easy and low cost and she was stringently opposed.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

I wasn't Covid shaming your Covid shaming, Iowan. :lol:

Your Guv (and mine) are prime examples. We've elected people who, in at least some form, ran on a platform of hating Government.

Down here in Texas, we are on the hunt for a decent Football coach for the Longhorns. After a rough decade of mediocre performance, I doubt the AD and Boosters are saying, "we need an outsider, someone with little to no coaching experience that also really does not appreciate or respect the game." Sounds silly, but, damn, that could have been the marketing tagline for the Tea Party movement....and now we all have to deal with the consequences.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

pearlbeer wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:20 pm
a leadership vacuum has cost lives. It's a shame that we don't have anything approaching CONSISTENT federal, state or even local guidance. The opening and closing of businesses and facilities sure is a tricky issue...but wearing a goddamn mask isn't. It's free. But this free act of shared safety has been compromised by freeDOM. Or maybe in this case, freeDUMB. I get not trusting the Government, I can understand that personal responsibility must be accounted for here. But, left to our own devices, Americans are clearly fumbling this issue, and the consequences are high.
Exactly.
boyyourself wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:59 am
Survival of the fittest makes sense to me as well. And I don't think the government or any one politician should be held responsible for high risk people having a hard time with Covid.
Thank you for your excellent response. Much to unpack, no time to do it now, so just a couple of quick observations.

1. Without doubt we all do it, but in this case in particular I think your generalizing from the specific is a problematic methodology.

2. It seems to me that solutions for San Miguel County CO, population density 5 people per square mile, might/should/must vary considerably from solutions for New York City, population density 28,491 per square mile or Manhattan, population density 72,918 per square mile. I don't know if you're ignoring these differences or don't think they matter but I hope that we can agree that whatever the answers are, they are probably different in those very different conditions.
pearlbeer wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:20 pm
But this free act of shared safety has been compromised by freeDOM. Or maybe in this case, freeDUMB. I get not trusting the Government, I can understand that personal responsibility must be accounted for here. But, left to our own devices, Americans are clearly fumbling this issue, and the consequences are high. And we are dealing a subset of the population that chooses freeDUMB over a simple mask for a little while. Hell, we're dealing with a pretty good subset of the population that still honestly believes this is a hoax.
Same point, different emphasis: Expressly and implicitly running through all the posts starting w/ my posting of the article is the question of how did mask wearing get to be a political issue? I mean, I think we would all probably agree on how it did happen, but how could it have happened? How could a simple, low burden, low cost, public health response that had no underlying agenda beyond public health become weighted down w/ all kinds of symbolism it cannot support, including broad concepts like freedom, patriotism and belief in science and government? This is imho completely nuts and it places any attempt to have a rational conversation w/in an irrational context, which makes discussion, analysis and decision making extraordinarily difficult.
beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:21 pm
Although more speculative you're also welcome to explain why you think the governor of Iowa should not be held to be at least criminally negligent in the deaths of hundreds, soon to be thousands, of the people she represents.
In "high concept" form, I think I could make a credible case for criminal negligence in these circumstances. But in practical terms it's a non starter. This comment really is more of a reflection of my high level of frustration and anger than it is a serious substantive suggestion. I'm sorry I mentioned it.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by boyyourself »

https://www.thelunaticfarmer.com/blog/1 ... er-lettuce


This discussion reminded me of this article so I thought I'd post it here. It's quite a read.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by bovine knievel »

boyyourself wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:59 am
https://www.thelunaticfarmer.com/blog/1 ... er-lettuce


This discussion reminded me of this article so I thought I'd post it here. It's quite a read.
Makes sense to me.

I liked this...
"Follow the science" is actually about following nonsensical foolishness.
“Excited people get on daddy’s nerves.” - M. Cooley

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

bovine knievel wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:24 am
boyyourself wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:59 am
https://www.thelunaticfarmer.com/blog/1 ... er-lettuce


This discussion reminded me of this article so I thought I'd post it here. It's quite a read.
Makes sense to me.

I liked this...
"Follow the science" is actually about following nonsensical foolishness.
Makes no sense to me.

Why is it that the same people who talk about the need to balance risks and rewards (benefits) in enacting covid policy also think it's meaningful to say things like it's asinine to think that germs don't spread while you're eating but start up again as soon as you're finished eating? The whole, entire, complete point about wearing masks in restaurants but taking them off to eat is to balance risks and rewards (especially in combination with other rules about distancing etc which usually go hand in hand), not to claim that there is no risk in taking off masks to eat.

I have no idea whether the test proposed by the author is in fact properly calibrated to determine the most accurate result, but I will admit it sounds impressive. But let's assume it's the perfect test. I don't really get why the standard in this one thing must be somebody's idea of perfection as opposed to doing the best we can w/ the information available in real time while a disease continues to ravage the country. I'm pretty sure that the equivalent gold standard in experimentation has not been followed w/ respect to the development of covid vaccines but it seems like a whole lot of people who insist on the highest possible standard when it comes to mask testing (masks being benign in all circumstances) are willing and even eager to put a vaccine out there w/out equivalent testing standards (vaccines being a much higher risk activity).
Last edited by beantownbubba on Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

boyyourself wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:59 am
I think I heard Robb Wolf say that the further you deviate from nature the more illness there is. Makes sense to me.
Survival of the fittest makes sense to me as well. And I don't think the government or any one politician should be held responsible for high risk people having a hard time with Covid.

I'm in Texas now for my Aunts funeral. Technically it's a Covid death. She died with Covid. Maybe even from Covid, add it to the growing numbers. She was also 99 and living in a nursing home. Without Covid, who knows, she may have lived for months longer. Maybe even a year two. But no one should be blamed for her death. She died. That shit happens. It's part of the life cycle. Death is required for life.
When Covid first hit I didn't think my mom would survive it if she got it. She's 70 and a 50 yr smoker. I was wrong. She not only survived getting covid, she was only sick for a couple days. Same with my brother, step dad, and father.
These folk have strong immune systems. Outside a lot, connected, lifestyle with sense of purpose etc.
Folks that are hit the haredest are obese, lack vitamin D, zinc, etc. or have a host of other conditions, such as most nursing home patients. Most covid deaths have been in nursing homes. Makes sense to me.
And let's not forget the ginormous difference between dying from covid and dying with covid. This is when numbers lie. So the covid death numbers have been inflated all along.
Of course it spread like wildfire in prisons. And people die in prison. Happens all the time. It's easy to find data that will show you Covid deaths from prison. But Impossible to find real data that will delineate between prisoners who die from Covid and those that die With Covid. I think that sucks.

Back in Colorado, Telluride in particular has been very strict with masks and lock down orders. Even though no one in the whole town that's gotten it has presented much more than mild symptoms. Let alone died. It's an active outdoor community and people have strong immune there. And actually has record number of tourists in town all summer. Bringing in that Covid. It didn't wipe out anyone in town.
Down in the lowlands of western Colorado which may as well be Iowa or Texas---it's rural and agricultural----most people are not in favor of lockdowns. A lot of business never closed when Covid hit. Good for them.

The other day that decided to start calling hospitals myself. I called the Montrose hospital and asked if they were over worked and stressed from Covid patients. They said no. I called the Delta hospital. Same thing. I called the Grand Juntion Hospital. Same. Were they lying? None of them said anything about how they couldn't release that kind of info, they just said no.

Then I found out that the Montrose Hoapital just laid off 30-40 people. Reason being, as the Iowa article mentioned, there are no elective surgeries being scheduled. So it kinda mKes me wonder if this is happening all over. If hospitals and health care workers are so stressed, Then why are people getting laid off? And if they are stressed from covid then couldn't they be using those people instead of laying them off? Makes no sense to me.

The only thing that really makes sense to me is the money. In Colorado this summer, Governor Polis shut down farmers markets but left Wal Mart open. WTF? Now, Let's look at who is crushing it--McDonald's showing profit increase, Wal Mart, fucking AmaZon is through the roof. Where's all that packaging ending up? Where are all the to go containers and pizza boxes ending up?
Zoloft use--- sky high. Big pharma is absolutely killing right now. And that will never slow down at this point. Booze consumption way up.

Who is responsible for child abuse and domestic violence rising? I just don't think it's fair that a child has to be stuck at home with some abusive asshole because the kid can't go to school and the parent can't go to work. So I guess you could say I have compassion. But sorry, comparatively speaking, I don't have a lot of compassion for people that are high risk that could have, with personal responsibility, lived a lifestyle that was more conducive to not being high risk. Heart disease, tobacco, obesity---we've known a long time that these things are preventable deaths. And it seems like obese people and nursing home patients are by far getting crushed the hardest by Covid. So I think If you're high risk and you are worried. You should protect yourself. Otherwise, you should be able to go on with your life.
I am really struggling about how to respond to this. OT1H, you have an overall perspective which is consistent and which raises valid objections to some aspects of current policy or proposed best practices. OTOH, it's hard to figure out how to respond to broad unsupported statements.

Let's start with this: I think underlying your argument is the idea that risks and rewards need to be balanced and aimed at specific conditions/circumstances in making policy. I agree with that. I also agree that there are legitimate questions about whether lockdowns and similar drastic measures properly balance the risks and rewards and adequately consider all the relevant inputs, especially as applied in different parts of the country. But it's in applying these principles where things get difficult. The general point that in places like Telluride and rural TX, CO or IA lockdowns are ineffective and counter productive may well be true. Yet, IA, which has avoided lockdowns, mask orders and the like now has a raging covid problem. What can we take from that? Damned if I know but at a minimum I suggest that even if lockdowns are the wrong risk/reward decision, mask wearing is a right one, having no downsides except a completely specious and made up argument about "freedom" and significant proven upsides, even if that proof does not meet some theoretical standard of perfection.

Shifting gears, "survival of the fittest" is a well known and accepted evolutionary principle. But how does that concept apply to this disease? The people who are at highest risk of dying have, generally speaking, already passed on their genes. There is no evolutionary benefit I can see to letting those people die.

As I said before, I think you generalize from the specific to a greater extent than the facts warrant. For example, take my mother. She's 88, has a number of what we now call pre-existing conditions the most serious of which is congestive heart failure. She spent way too much of 2019 in the hospital w/ various ailments and emergencies and was steadily declining mentally and physically. She lives in the assisted living portion of a large "senior facility." Yet she has somehow rallied this year, has been remarkably healthy and has shown a marked slow down in overall deterioration. What should we conclude from that w/ respect to covid? My answer is, "nothing." Despite her experience, I think it's safe to say that being 88, living in a senior care facility and having CHF and other conditions are prime risk factors for covid.

I think that was pretty clever of you to call those hospitals. I'm pretty surprised that they answered you but they did, and I never would have thought of doing that. But now what? You have a sample size of 2 from one part of the country. That's only meaningful as a guide for policymaking if you want to claim that all reports of overcrowding and crisis conditions elsewhere are not credible. I don't think that the results of your 2 hospital survey are proof of that and I'm not aware of any other evidence that those reports aren't credible. Perhaps you're offering those results for the more limited purpose of arguing that an all out crisis response at the level of lockdowns is not appropriate in your area and that sounds right to me or at the very least is a good justification for considering less disruptive alternatives.

I usually respond this way to those who make the "dying w/ covid versus dying of covid" argument: It has been the law for hundreds of years going back to ye olden days in England that if I were to walk into a hospice and shoot and kill the patients, I would be guilty of murder. It would not be a valid defense to argue either that (i) those patients were dying anyway or (ii) the costs of keeping those patients alive or even just caring for them as they die outweigh the benefits of keeping them alive and caring for them. If one accepts the "dying w/ covid" argument, one is saying that I should not be guilty of murder in the hospice shooting example because the argument is that hastening death is no big deal. I don't think most people would agree with that.

Yes, following the money is always a good idea. But for every Amazon and Wal Mart, there are thousands of retailers, restaurants, movie theaters, etc, from mom & pop to giant chains, that are getting killed by the current situation. I'm not disagreeing w/ you, I just don't see the picture as clearly as you do.

The argument that high risk people should protect themselves assumes that it's possible to do so despite the well accepted germ theory of disease and also implies that none of us have responsibilities to our communities. Appropriate adjustments to policies to account for risks and rewards, benefits and burdens are fine, but if "going on with your life" means doing nothing when doing something is easy and effective is not appropriately accounting for benefits and burdens and gives zero weight to community in making that calculation. Yeah, individualism matters and maybe it's been underweighted to some extent as policies evolve, but the answer is to better account for individualism, not to ignore community.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

for me, the takeaway message of the pandemic and the aversion to listen to SMEs (subject matter experts) is that (some) people think they know better than the so-called experts in the ivory towers; they can't tell ME what to do.

from the last bit of that article:
This is why Covid should not be a federal government issue. I don't want the president to do anything because it thwarts innovation and choice. If we want diversity, let's have freedom to diversify. You do your thing and I'll do mine and over time let the best policy win.
policy vs science. suddenly everyone with an internet connection is a fucking expert.

well, newsflash - you're not.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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this guy has a pretty take on things... i haven't caught up to date w/ all the weekly emails but this is relevant and is now four weeks old:

https://covidemails.com/weekly-email-35 ... ion-issue/
Why we need to stop following ExCUSEs
the Asia-Pacific and Atlantic Canada (A-PAC) approach aims for really zero cases or transmission, tightly controlled borders and visitors, and have had clear and consistent public health messaging
the A-PAC approach has been an unquestionable success so far
on the other hand, the Examples of the rest of Canada, the US, and Europe (ExCUSE) have been an unquestionable failure
Atlantic Canada, apart from being filled with a beautiful scenery, lovely people, great music, and amazing seafood, has remained largely free of COVID-19. Nova Scotia, Newfoundland & Labrador, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island have a collective population of 2.44M people, have had collectively about 1810 cases and 75 deaths by creating the Altantic Bubble. How did they do it?

First, they have two major advantage:

A relatively sparsely distributed population, with limited public transit, and few interprovincial and international points-of-entry.
A very community-minded public
But, in my mind, the Atlantic provinces have mostly benefited from following what I will refer to as the Asia-Pacific and Atlantic Canada (A-PAC) Approach on COVID-19. “Asia-Pacific” includes Australia (25M), China (1.39B), Japan (126M), New Zealand (5M), South Korea (52M), Taiwan (24M), Thailand (69M), and Vietnam (96M). The A-PAC Approach includes the following:

Aim for really low number of new cases, and don’t tolerate even a hint of rising cases (i.e. community transmission)
Ensure any new people and cases coming in from outside are quarantined
Aggressive test-trace-isolate
Strong public health leadership
Consistent and clear communication
An accepting and compliant public
People will argue various exceptions to why the A-PAC Approach is more a feature of the uniqueness of each of these countries. But these A-PAC provinces and countries vary in geography, population density and size, democratic fundamentals, multiculturalism, etc. In fact, as far as I can tell, the only thing unifying them in their success are these 6 factors. If you are living somewhere struggling with COVID, ask how many of these 6 principles are being followed.

The ExCUSE approach, on the other hand, follows a predictable pattern:
keep numbers low → watch cases rise and encourage “better behaviour” → increase public health measures → watch cases rise and encourage “better behaviour” → crisis → lockdown → repeat

In my mind, there is no sound rationale to continue pursuing ExCUSEs. It is reckless, with a predictable outcome. The problem: every single provincial (Canada) and state (US) government is pursuing this exact strategy. It will leave us with unnecessary suffering, death, stress, and economic uncertainty. Am I frustrated by this? You bet. Can I do anything about it? Well, I have spoken out in the media enough times, over the past few weeks, so it is now also left to you. Maybe contact your MPP and/or MP.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by boyyourself »

I agree with Tinnitus about experts. "Just trust the experts" Is the dumbest thing ever.
But then you post some other link from someone else like that's any better? I don't trust a politician or a scientist anymore than I do anyone else, unless I do.
I trust who I trust, and I'd Joel Salatin is more than a keyboard https://www.thelunaticfarmer.com/blog/1 ... ce-charles

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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boyyourself wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:43 am
I agree with Tinnitus about experts. "Just trust the experts" Is the dumbest thing ever.
But then you post some other link from someone else like that's any better? I don't trust a politician or a scientist anymore than I do anyone else, unless I do.
I trust who I trust, and I'd Joel Salatin is more than a keyboard https://www.thelunaticfarmer.com/blog/1 ... ce-charles
yeah i think you misread my post... i DO trust the experts, people who have spent considerable time and effort to become proficient in their field of expertise.

are they infallible? of course not.

do they know more than some lunatic farmer about infectious disease? fuck yes.


i have no idea what this means.
I don't trust a politician or a scientist anymore than I do anyone else, unless I do.
do you personally vet out your doctor, dentist, mechanic etc? do you trust that whoever designed and built that bridge you drive over are enough of an expert that you feel safe? how do you get through life being so self-sufficient?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

tinnitus photography wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:38 pm
i DO trust the experts, people who have spent considerable time and effort to become proficient in their field of expertise.

are they infallible? of course not.

do they know more than some lunatic farmer about infectious disease? fuck yes.
tinnitus photography wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:38 pm
do you personally vet out your doctor, dentist, mechanic etc? do you trust that whoever designed and built that bridge you drive over are enough of an expert that you feel safe? how do you get through life being so self-sufficient?
Yes.

I would add that a significant part of good leadership is knowing how to identify, test, challenge, synthesize and apply expertise without being an expert in everything.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

beantownbubba wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:39 pm
tinnitus photography wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:38 pm
i DO trust the experts, people who have spent considerable time and effort to become proficient in their field of expertise.

are they infallible? of course not.

do they know more than some lunatic farmer about infectious disease? fuck yes.
tinnitus photography wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:38 pm
do you personally vet out your doctor, dentist, mechanic etc? do you trust that whoever designed and built that bridge you drive over are enough of an expert that you feel safe? how do you get through life being so self-sufficient?
Yes.

I would add that a significant part of good leadership is knowing how to identify, test, challenge, synthesize and apply expertise without being an expert in everything.
Really depends on the goal of "leadership", doesn't it? I'm finding that the goal of leadership in my workplace organization is misplaced towards profit above all. That is often at odds with compassion, and compassion will carry you a LONG fucking way in my field. But it is not always amenable to expanding the bottom line.
Now it's dark.

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