The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:16 pm
I'm not sure why this has been on my mind so much the past day or 2, but it has so I thought I'd share, for whatever it's worth.

Shortly after my older son graduated HS in 2005, my wife and I totally unexpectedly got a thank you card from one of our son's good friends. The friend was not one of our son's couple of best friends but he was part of the "main group" of good friends that was together from middle school thru HS. He's African-American. To this day I count this note as one of the most wonderful I have ever received and also easily the saddest (outside of family tragedy-related).

The friend actually thanked us for treating him normally. For allowing him to feel comfortable when he was at our house. For inviting him to stay for dinner if he was around at dinner time and including him in the conversation around the table. For including him when we took the kids for ice cream. For looking him in the eye and sharing pleasantries, or asking how he was doing. And for not following him around the house as if we expected him to steal the family heirlooms as soon as we turned our backs. To say we were shocked understates the case considerably. We had no idea that he felt this way about his overall experiences or that we had affected him to that extent. Obviously we were glad to be a positive in his life, but holy cow, folks, this was Newton, Massachusetts in the 21st century!

Newton's an interesting place in many ways in part because it is unusually large and unusually close to the big city for a standard suburb. But in other ways it fits the MA stereotype pretty well. I'm certain that right now there are more black lives matter lawn signs around the city than there are combined signs for Trump, Biden and Markey (I literally I don't know who the R candidate for Senate is; he or she is the equivalent of Mr. Irrelevant in the NFL draft). Newton has one of the oldest and biggest programs for bringing inner city kids to the Newton schools and the program is oversubscribed every year (to be clear our son's friend lived in Newton and was not part of that program). Newton has an actual (as opposed to lip service) commitment backed by cash money to retaining and adding affordable housing. The city is unique in my experience in that religiously it is divided incredibly equally into thirds: Catholic, Protestant and Jewish. There is now a Muslim presence but it is fairly new and small.

Our son, mostly on his own motion w/out our prodding has been involved in anti-racist activities at least since middle school. He would not be friends with an obviously racist person and none of his friends, or their parents, seem racist to me by the typical casual standards we tend to apply to such judgments. And yet, we got that note. And yet, his experience was obviously far from how any of us white folks imagined it, if we bothered to think about it at all. Just sayin'.
Good stuff.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

Mundane Mayhem
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Mundane Mayhem »

John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:06 pm
Clams wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:58 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:27 pm
One of the many mysteries of the Trump phenomenon is that working people somehow identify with him and think that Trump knows them, cares about them and represents their interests. This seems self evidently preposterous to me but let's say there are legit reasons for some people reacting this way on an emotional, visceral level even if not on a strictly rational basis. But then one comes to this unalterable fact: The one consistent way that Trump has found to make money is by stiffing working people. We're not talking one or two examples, or even one or two dozen. Hundreds? Not even close. We are literally talking thousands of times.
Trumpers don't care one bit about his past or the things he says and does. All they care about is swinging the pendulum back from the Obama days to their own values and beliefs. Or as others have said, "sticking it to the libs." Nothing else matters to them.
This sounds too much like "They hate us for our freedoms" for my tastes. It may be true but it doesn't really explain.
I'm sure there are other long-form pieces that explain how we got here, but here's a relatively pithy one that makes some pretty compelling points, from my POV.

One excerpt:
Rather rapidly, two things happened: First, Republicans realized they’d radicalized their base to a point where nothing they did in power could satisfy their most fervent constituents. Then—in a much more consequential development—a large portion of the Republican Congressional caucus became people who themselves consume garbage conservative media, and nothing else.

That, broadly, explains the dysfunction of the Obama era, post-Tea Party freakout. Congressional Republicans went from people who were able to turn their bullshit-hose on their constituents, in order to rile them up, to people who pointed it directly at themselves, mouths open.
All it takes is one wicked heart, a pile of money, and a chain of folks just doing their jobs

Zip City
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Either the people who say these things don’t know what some of these words mean or they just intentionally say insane things because they want them to be true. The word fascist has become just about as meaningless as the word literally because it gets misused so often.

The far left and their hideous two headed monster BLM and antifa wouldn’t be able to riot if Orange Man was a fascist because they would all be dead. By their very existence and unhinged behavior they prove the opposite. If Orange Man is a fascist he sucks at it.

Before Covid-“Orange Man is a dictator!”

Since Covid-“Screw Orange Man for not being a dictator!”
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

chuckrh
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by chuckrh »

Cole Younger wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:07 pm
Either the people who say these things don’t know what some of these words mean or they just intentionally say insane things because they want them to be true. The word fascist has become just about as meaningless as the word literally because it gets misused so often.

The far left and their hideous two headed monster BLM and antifa wouldn’t be able to riot if Orange Man was a fascist because they would all be dead. By their very existence and unhinged behavior they prove the opposite. If Orange Man is a fascist he sucks at it.

Before Covid-“Orange Man is a dictator!”

Since Covid-“Screw Orange Man for not being a dictator!”
Well, Trump sucks at everything else. Why should being a fascist be any different? In the good old days some of the shit this asshole has/is getting away with would warrant a visit to Old Sparky like the Rosenbergs.

John A Arkansawyer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

I was roaming through the 2016 threads, trying to pinpoint the moment when I went from rooting for Trump to get the nomination to dreading it, the moment when he started inciting violence against counter-protesters to his rallies, and I'm feeling pretty bad about having been mostly right:
John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Wed May 04, 2016 10:55 am
I've got some winnings from betting against a Bush/Clinton race in the general election which I'm willing to invest in betting on a Trump presidency. With luck and reasonable odds, I might make enough money re-investing it to be out of the country between Trump's election and his inauguration. And for once, I wouldn't mind losing the damn bet. But I'm three for three betting against optimists this week so far, so my pessimism is making me more cheerful than I have any right to be.

Josh Marshall talks about Trump victory calling the note on the Republican Party's "slow build up of hate and nonsense debt". He's right about that, and about how the Republican Party was blindsided by what other people saw coming. What you see right above this remark is the Democratic Party being blindsided by its own "contempt for working people" debt. They've been holding out the Supreme Court as a sort of perverse carrot stick--it's a floor wax and a dessert topping!--with which decent yet minority views can be ratified without troubling with the democratic process. That's the way the FRFs who dominate Democratic Party decision-making like it. If they actually built a mass party able to protect the interests of working people, why, then working people might make and enforce political decisions which were in their own interests, the sort that shaves a Mercedes and a prostitute off the average corporado's weekly budget. So instead every hope is placed on the very weak reed of the Supreme Court. One thing the Supreme Court has never, ever been particularly interested in is working people's rights. Now popular belief in that civic god is dying. When belief in a god dies, the god dies with it. That is never pretty.

I translated the first line of Julio Cortazar's "Los Dioses", "Los dioses ha van entre las cosas pisoteadas" thus: "The gods are gone among the ruined things." Maybe this is my chance to get my Spanish back in shape. But I'd really rather live in Brazil. Choices, choices.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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dime in the gutter
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by dime in the gutter »

Cole Younger wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:07 pm
Either the people who say these things don’t know what some of these words mean or they just intentionally say insane things because they want them to be true. The word fascist has become just about as meaningless as the word literally because it gets misused so often.

The far left and their hideous two headed monster BLM and antifa wouldn’t be able to riot if Orange Man was a fascist because they would all be dead. By their very existence and unhinged behavior they prove the opposite. If Orange Man is a fascist he sucks at it.

Before Covid-“Orange Man is a dictator!”

Since Covid-“Screw Orange Man for not being a dictator!”
what is your definition of fascism?

Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

dime in the gutter wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:17 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:07 pm
Either the people who say these things don’t know what some of these words mean or they just intentionally say insane things because they want them to be true. The word fascist has become just about as meaningless as the word literally because it gets misused so often.

The far left and their hideous two headed monster BLM and antifa wouldn’t be able to riot if Orange Man was a fascist because they would all be dead. By their very existence and unhinged behavior they prove the opposite. If Orange Man is a fascist he sucks at it.

Before Covid-“Orange Man is a dictator!”

Since Covid-“Screw Orange Man for not being a dictator!”
what is your definition of fascism?
I hate to answer your question with a question but do you think fascists let people run wild rioting in the streets and setting things on fire? Do you think fascists tolerate “resistance”? Every example of fascism that comes to mind saw things like that squashed. Makes no difference to me who likes Orange Man and who hates him. But it’s annoying when people think they can just change the meanings of words as it suits them. Literally Hitler is another good example. Do I need to provide “my” definition of the word literally? And the word racism seems to just mean “conservative” anymore or “anyone who doesn’t think what I think.” I’m a fairly tolerant guy and am willing to meet just about anybody half way but these people have got their fist on the fool button and will not let go. The second you start destroying property and attacking people physically you’ve lost whatever claim you think you have to the moral high ground, any credibility to claims of fascism on the part of the president, and are the very things you claim to be against. A definition I know quite well is that of the word terrorism and that’s exactly what these people are engaged in currently. These people with their constant shrieks about fascism and racism remind me of the cheating spouse who incessantly accuses their spouse of doing what they are doing. If a person is so ideologically possessed that they can’t see these things I’m personally not interested in talking to them because they’re intellectually dishonest and that’s not something I’ve got time for. So having gone the long way around the barn, it’s not me who has his own special definition of fascism or any other word.
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cortez the killer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:50 pm
dime in the gutter wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:17 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:07 pm
Either the people who say these things don’t know what some of these words mean or they just intentionally say insane things because they want them to be true. The word fascist has become just about as meaningless as the word literally because it gets misused so often.

The far left and their hideous two headed monster BLM and antifa wouldn’t be able to riot if Orange Man was a fascist because they would all be dead. By their very existence and unhinged behavior they prove the opposite. If Orange Man is a fascist he sucks at it.

Before Covid-“Orange Man is a dictator!”

Since Covid-“Screw Orange Man for not being a dictator!”
what is your definition of fascism?
I hate to answer your question with a question but do you think fascists let people run wild rioting in the streets and setting things on fire? Do you think fascists tolerate “resistance”? Every example of fascism that comes to mind saw things like that squashed. Makes no difference to me who likes Orange Man and who hates him. But it’s annoying when people think they can just change the meanings of words as it suits them. Literally Hitler is another good example. Do I need to provide “my” definition of the word literally? And the word racism seems to just mean “conservative” anymore or “anyone who doesn’t think what I think.” I’m a fairly tolerant guy and am willing to meet just about anybody half way but these people have got their fist on the fool button and will not let go. The second you start destroying property and attacking people physically you’ve lost whatever claim you think you have to the moral high ground, any credibility to claims of fascism on the part of the president, and are the very things you claim to be against. A definition I know quite well is that of the word terrorism and that’s exactly what these people are engaged in currently. These people with their constant shrieks about fascism and racism remind me of the cheating spouse who incessantly accuses their spouse of doing what they are doing. If a person is so ideologically possessed that they can’t see these things I’m personally not interested in talking to them because they’re intellectually dishonest and that’s not something I’ve got time for. So having gone the long way around the barn, it’s not me who has his own special definition of fascism or any other word.
He asked you what your definition of fascism is and you essentially rambled on in a very Trumpian way without answering the question. It's as straightforward and simple as it gets. No need to muddy the water or dance around what he asked you. What is your definition of fascism?
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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Oh, you think he needs your help? You crack me up when you act like you’re the enforcer, Cortez. Lol. In your own sig line it describes you as a lost soul. I believe you.

Once again, I don’t have my own special definition of the word. That’s the very thing I find so tedious about these people. They accuse other people of doing the very things that they do. Fascism is characterized by a nationalistic society ruled by a dictator who doesn’t allow dissent or open opposition. How many riots does it take before you two don’t feel suppressed anymore by Orange Man, assuming you aren’t just being obtuse of course? How much “resistance” will help you feel like you aren’t living under a fascist dictator? Because they don’t allow the very things that are playing out right now.



“Shut down speech we don’t agree with. ‘Cancel’ everyone who
won’t roll over and take it in the butt from us.”-the progressives.🙄
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cortez the killer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

Enforcer? Lost soul? I guess you aren't a Guided By Voices fan.

Happy to hear that I cracked you up. I wish I could say the same for you. The generalities and baseless GOP talking points you regurgitate here, Cole, are old and tiresome. Dime didn't ask for my help, nor did I feel like I was helping him. I'm pretty sure this is a public forum and not a private message or discussion. You brought up fascism and I was curious what your definition of it is. However, you decided to take a few weak shots at me before going back to attacking those damn progressives. Cole meet Pavlov; Pavlov this is Cole.
I am a lost soul
I shoot myself with rock & roll

Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

cortez the killer wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:59 am
Enforcer? Lost soul? I guess you aren't a Guided By Voices fan.

Happy to hear that I cracked you up. I wish I could say the same for you. The generalities and baseless GOP talking points you regurgitate here, Cole, are old and tiresome. Dime didn't ask for my help, nor did I feel like I was helping him. I'm pretty sure this is a public forum and not a private message or discussion. You brought up fascism and I was curious what your definition of it is. However, you decided to take a few weak shots at me before going back to attacking those damn progressives. Cole meet Pavlov; Pavlov this is Cole.


Your knee jerk reactions to everything I say while accusing me of a Pavlovian response are a hilarious bit of irony this morning. Self awareness isn’t your strong suit but I already knew that. And the weak shots sure seem to have you wrapped around your axel. Tell you what, if you’re going to be an internet tough guy, you might want to grow some thicker skin. I’m the only one of my kind here but here I am. You’ve got pretty much the rest of the board in agreement with you and you’re whining about something I said? You need to harden up, son. At least if you’re going to act the way you do here. Just as people who call themselves progressives should t be so puritanical and “antifascists” shouldn’t be quite so fascist.

If you want to continue this I suggest we take it to pm. Or we can drop it. That would suit me better because I grow bored of your little dog and pony show pretty quickly.
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Tequila Cowboy
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Fascism: A form of far-right government that is ruled by an authoritarian leader. They work for a totalitarian one-party state. This aim is to prepare the nation for armed conflict, and to respond to economic difficulties.

You can quibble with a point or two here as to whether Trump fits, but you can’t argue that he doesn’t aspire to be an authoritarian as he alluded to it himself. From Bob Woodward’s Rage and remember, this is on tape

-Trump reflected on his relationships with authoritarian leaders generally, including Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. “It’s funny, the relationships I have, the tougher and meaner they are, the better I get along with them,” he told Woodward. “You know? Explain that to me someday, okay?”-

These are the the leaders he admires. As far as protests, he hates them and has said so repeatedly. It’s also not true that fascists have never allowed protests, they allow them until the have the power to stop them. There were regular protests against Hitler until Kristalnacht, and even that was carried out by paramilitary forces as he did not yet have enough power to execute an operation like that by the state. Erdogan had protests before consolidating power, as did Duda in Poland and frankly Putin as well. Nearly all authoritarians are protested, until they have the means to squelch it.

So is fascism overused? Maybe, but authoritarianism is a real concern and we’ve never seen that before in this country to this degree, not even with Nixon who was the closest to it previously.


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chuckrh
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by chuckrh »

Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:14 am
cortez the killer wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:59 am
Enforcer? Lost soul? I guess you aren't a Guided By Voices fan.

Happy to hear that I cracked you up. I wish I could say the same for you. The generalities and baseless GOP talking points you regurgitate here, Cole, are old and tiresome. Dime didn't ask for my help, nor did I feel like I was helping him. I'm pretty sure this is a public forum and not a private message or discussion. You brought up fascism and I was curious what your definition of it is. However, you decided to take a few weak shots at me before going back to attacking those damn progressives. Cole meet Pavlov; Pavlov this is Cole.


Your knee jerk reactions to everything I say while accusing me of a Pavlovian response are a hilarious bit of irony this morning. Self awareness isn’t your strong suit but I already knew that. And the weak shots sure seem to have you wrapped around your axel. Tell you what, if you’re going to be an internet tough guy, you might want to grow some thicker skin. I’m the only one of my kind here but here I am. You’ve got pretty much the rest of the board in agreement with you and you’re whining about something I said? You need to harden up, son. At least if you’re going to act the way you do here. Just as people who call themselves progressives should t be so puritanical and “antifascists” shouldn’t be quite so fascist.

If you want to continue this I suggest we take it to pm. Or we can drop it. That would suit me better because I grow bored of your little dog and pony show pretty quickly.
Ironic coming from a fan of the ultimate dog & pony show. Remember, don't inject the brown Clorox. It's specifically not good!

John A Arkansawyer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Cole, correct me if I'm wrong, but you stepped back into this discussion because you're concerned in a way you weren't in 2016, true? You haven't said it explicitly, but I think Trump worries you now in ways he didn't then. True?
Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:14 am
Fascism is characterized by a nationalistic society ruled by a dictator who doesn’t allow dissent or open opposition.
That's a pretty good definition, and I agree we aren't there. But I think that's what Orange Man (his superpower--rhymes with nothing) would like to be. He looks less like a classical WW II fascist than an Erdogan type, which is an improvement, I guess. I'd still like to keep him from getting there.
Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:40 am
“Shut down speech we don’t agree with. ‘Cancel’ everyone who won’t roll over and take it in the butt from us.”-the progressives.
There's a lot of that going around: The Legislative Body Problem: GOP Senators Criticize Netflix Plan to Adapt Liu Cixin Hugo-Winner. Those are some powerful governmental officials putting the arm on Netflix to suppress a possible movie. And I get their point: "the author, in a 2019 New Yorker interview, defended Chinese repression against the Uighurs". That's at least as bad as JK Rowling having a murderer dress like a woman.

That's not to excuse the left, such as it is, just to say that freedom of expression isn't terribly valued by any side at the moment.

What's interesting to me is how little of the "cancel culture" is aimed at political targets. It's almost always a media thing. A few years back, I saw one of those listicles, "The Ten Worst Things White Progressive Women Did Last Year" or some such. It was very popular meme among my friends. The list was entirely media figures, and apparently, the worst white woman in the world that year was Ani DiFranco, because she'd rented a former plantation to do a retreat. It seems there is no evil in the world of government or business, only in entertainment.

I could go on about this.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

chuckrh wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:34 am
Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:14 am
cortez the killer wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:59 am
Enforcer? Lost soul? I guess you aren't a Guided By Voices fan.

Happy to hear that I cracked you up. I wish I could say the same for you. The generalities and baseless GOP talking points you regurgitate here, Cole, are old and tiresome. Dime didn't ask for my help, nor did I feel like I was helping him. I'm pretty sure this is a public forum and not a private message or discussion. You brought up fascism and I was curious what your definition of it is. However, you decided to take a few weak shots at me before going back to attacking those damn progressives. Cole meet Pavlov; Pavlov this is Cole.


Your knee jerk reactions to everything I say while accusing me of a Pavlovian response are a hilarious bit of irony this morning. Self awareness isn’t your strong suit but I already knew that. And the weak shots sure seem to have you wrapped around your axel. Tell you what, if you’re going to be an internet tough guy, you might want to grow some thicker skin. I’m the only one of my kind here but here I am. You’ve got pretty much the rest of the board in agreement with you and you’re whining about something I said? You need to harden up, son. At least if you’re going to act the way you do here. Just as people who call themselves progressives should t be so puritanical and “antifascists” shouldn’t be quite so fascist.

If you want to continue this I suggest we take it to pm. Or we can drop it. That would suit me better because I grow bored of your little dog and pony show pretty quickly.
Ironic coming from a fan of the ultimate dog & pony show. Remember, don't inject the brown Clorox. It's specifically not good!

That didn’t take long. What dog and pony show am I supposedly a fan of? Oh, you think, I’m a republican? Rong! I am a conservative and proud to be one but I am no republican.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:52 am
Cole, correct me if I'm wrong, but you stepped back into this discussion because you're concerned in a way you weren't in 2016, true? You haven't said it explicitly, but I think Trump worries you now in ways he didn't then. True?
Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:14 am
Fascism is characterized by a nationalistic society ruled by a dictator who doesn’t allow dissent or open opposition.
That's a pretty good definition, and I agree we aren't there. But I think that's what Orange Man (his superpower--rhymes with nothing) would like to be. He looks less like a classical WW II fascist than an Erdogan type, which is an improvement, I guess. I'd still like to keep him from getting there.
Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:40 am
“Shut down speech we don’t agree with. ‘Cancel’ everyone who won’t roll over and take it in the butt from us.”-the progressives.
There's a lot of that going around: The Legislative Body Problem: GOP Senators Criticize Netflix Plan to Adapt Liu Cixin Hugo-Winner. Those are some powerful governmental officials putting the arm on Netflix to suppress a possible movie. And I get their point: "the author, in a 2019 New Yorker interview, defended Chinese repression against the Uighurs". That's at least as bad as JK Rowling having a murderer dress like a woman.

That's not to excuse the left, such as it is, just to say that freedom of expression isn't terribly valued by any side at the moment.

What's interesting to me is how little of the "cancel culture" is aimed at political targets. It's almost always a media thing. A few years back, I saw one of those listicles, "The Ten Worst Things White Progressive Women Did Last Year" or some such. It was very popular meme among my friends. The list was entirely media figures, and apparently, the worst white woman in the world that year was Ani DiFranco, because she'd rented a former plantation to do a retreat. It seems there is no evil in the world of government or business, only in entertainment.

I could go on about this.
Good stuff their, John A. That’s part of my reason for coming back I guess but a lot of it has to do with things I see posted here as irrefutable facts that just are not. Orange Man is a lot of things, among them is authoritarian, but he’s not a fascist dictator. He just isn’t. Unless we are going to just decide words can mean whatever we want them to mean when it suits us then stuff like that doesn’t need to just pass without being challenged. I realize I’m peeing in the fan for the most part by saying these things here and I realize there are a few here who assume I’m all sorts of terrible things that I’m not. Racist among them just by virtue of being a conservative. For some reason I feel the need to challenge this stuff. As open minded as politically left people view themselves I’ve personally seen this not the case. I don’t mean that conservatives are. They aren’t. People, regardless of how they like to see themselves and how they vote tend to be open to the things they like and closed to the things they don’t like. That’s just human nature. Politically progressive people in big cities think of themselves as far more tolerant of those different from them compared to someone from the rural South. But how often do these people encounter anyone who isn’t pretty much exactly like them? I do t mean just passing the. On the street either. White, liberal, upper middle class people from the city aren’t exactly living in the epicenter of diversity in terms of where their time is spent and who their neighbors are. Big cities are remarkably segregated. I’m under no illusions that I’m going to change anybody’s mind about their core beliefs. I’m nowhere near arrogant enough to think that. It ain’t my place and how do I know I’m as right as I think I am? But I do feel like some of this stuff should be challenged. And while Cortez and his friends probably think I’m some sort of white supremacist nut bag who wants black people to die, women’s rights done away with, and gay people to be sent to a gulag (I could give two shits what ideologically possessed people think of me) maybe there are one or two here who will say to themselves “I don’t agree with that Cole Younger very often but he doesn’t seem like a bad guy. Maybe not everything I hear about conservatives is true.”
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:20 am
Politically progressive people in big cities think of themselves as far more tolerant of those different from them compared to someone from the rural South. But how often do these people encounter anyone who isn’t pretty much exactly like them? I do t mean just passing the. On the street either. White, liberal, upper middle class people from the city aren’t exactly living in the epicenter of diversity in terms of where their time is spent and who their neighbors are.
Have you read Tom Wolfe's essay "Radical Chic"? Here's a summary from Wikipedia: "Radical chic" is a term coined by journalist Tom Wolfe in his 1970 essay "Radical Chic: That Party at Lenny's" to describe the adoption and promotion of radical political causes by celebrities, socialites, and high society. In languages such as American English, French and Italian the term has become widely used to indicate people identifying themselves as socialists or radical leftists while conducting upper-class lifestyles." Point being that this phenomenon has been around for a long time and is part truth and part cliche and, at least imho, not especially relevant to what I thought were the topics on the table.

Cole, I've puzzled over this for a couple of days now, even wrote a longish response to try to help me figure it out, and I still don't get it but in the perhaps vain hope of trying to keep things at least in arm's length of the rails if not exactly on them, let me offer this thought, which in some ways echoes and expands on TC's: Your main point seems to be that this country is demonstrably not a fascist dictatorship, therefore those who use the terms "fascism" and "fascist" to describe Trump himself as well as any number of developments/events either don't know what they're talking about or are totally alarmist without cause. What I don't understand is why your standard is "if it's not a textbook, done deal fascist revolution it's not fascist at all."

I can't speak for "everyone" of course, but I know that for myself and for at least most people I know, we use the terms fascist and fascism to describe tendencies, beliefs, preferences and risk of occurrence. IOW, when I call Trump a fascist, I'm not saying that he's a dictator w/ absolute power, I'm saying that he'd like to be and that he's said something or done something that moves this country closer to that state. The same when I say, for example, that the scary as fuck storm troopers in Portland or forced hysterectomies are examples of fascism. That's because they are. It doesn't mean, and I don't see how it can fairly be thought to mean, that I think a fascist revolution has occurred and all that's left is to fill the concentration camps and prisons. It means we're on a slippery slope that poses great danger, both in the immediate moment and for the future. And I will argue with you from today until the end of time that (a) those are appropriate uses of the terms fascist and fascism and (b) that the many, many examples I would cite in that argument are in fact examples of fascism and fascists that if left unchecked and unopposed would in fact lead to a state of fascism that would satisfy your requirements and why the heck would anyone want to wait that long to respond?

I think TC's reference to kristallnacht is particularly apposite. While some would disagree I think it's fair to say that most historians agree that it was not until after Kristallnacht that Hitler consolidated his power firmly enough to fully pursue his agenda in terms of absolute dictatorial rule, conquest of other countries and elimination of the Jews. Kristallnacht occurred in 1938. Does that mean Hitler wasn't a fascist and that Germany wasn't a fascist country at least since 1933 when Hitler became chancellor? I don't think many people would agree with that. Does that mean that Hitler wasn't a fascist in 1923 when he was generally viewed as a clown by polite, elite society and ended up in prison after a pathetic failed putsch? No, of course not. He was a fascist and his followers were fascists long before they exercised any power much less complete authoritarian power. Note also that the people I referred to as polite, elite society were exactly the people who we now believe fucked up royally by not opposing Hitler or taking him seriously when he should and could have been squashed like a bug. Me? I'm always going to err on the side of bug squashing especially when I think the threat is greater here now than it was in Germany in 1923 (though conditions in Germany then were far worse than conditions here now which makes a direct comparison more difficult).
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:23 am
Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:20 am
Politically progressive people in big cities think of themselves as far more tolerant of those different from them compared to someone from the rural South. But how often do these people encounter anyone who isn’t pretty much exactly like them? I do t mean just passing the. On the street either. White, liberal, upper middle class people from the city aren’t exactly living in the epicenter of diversity in terms of where their time is spent and who their neighbors are.
Have you read Tom Wolfe's essay "Radical Chic"? Here's a summary from Wikipedia: "Radical chic" is a term coined by journalist Tom Wolfe in his 1970 essay "Radical Chic: That Party at Lenny's" to describe the adoption and promotion of radical political causes by celebrities, socialites, and high society. In languages such as American English, French and Italian the term has become widely used to indicate people identifying themselves as socialists or radical leftists while conducting upper-class lifestyles." Point being that this phenomenon has been around for a long time and is part truth and part cliche and, at least imho, not especially relevant to what I thought were the topics on the table.

Cole, I've puzzled over this for a couple of days now, even wrote a longish response to try to help me figure it out, and I still don't get it but in the perhaps vain hope of trying to keep things at least in arm's length of the rails if not exactly on them, let me offer this thought, which in some ways echoes and expands on TC's: Your main point seems to be that this country is demonstrably not a fascist dictatorship, therefore those who use the terms "fascism" and "fascist" to describe Trump himself as well as any number of developments/events either don't know what they're talking about or are totally alarmist without cause. What I don't understand is why your standard is "if it's not a textbook, done deal fascist revolution it's not fascist at all."

I can't speak for "everyone" of course, but I know that for myself and for at least most people I know, we use the terms fascist and fascism to describe tendencies, beliefs, preferences and risk of occurrence. IOW, when I call Trump a fascist, I'm not saying that he's a dictator w/ absolute power, I'm saying that he'd like to be and that he's said something or done something that moves this country closer to that state. The same when I say, for example, that the scary as fuck storm troopers in Portland or forced hysterectomies are examples of fascism. That's because they are. It doesn't mean, and I don't see how it can fairly be thought to mean, that I think a fascist revolution has occurred and all that's left is to fill the concentration camps and prisons. It means we're on a slippery slope that poses great danger, both in the immediate moment and for the future. And I will argue with you from today until the end of time that (a) those are appropriate uses of the terms fascist and fascism and (b) that the many, many examples I would cite in that argument are in fact examples of fascism and fascists that if left unchecked and unopposed would in fact lead to a state of fascism that would satisfy your requirements and why the heck would anyone want to wait that long to respond?

I think TC's reference to kristallnacht is particularly apposite. While some would disagree I think it's fair to say that most historians agree that it was not until after Kristallnacht that Hitler consolidated his power firmly enough to fully pursue his agenda in terms of absolute dictatorial rule, conquest of other countries and elimination of the Jews. Kristallnacht occurred in 1938. Does that mean Hitler wasn't a fascist and that Germany wasn't a fascist country at least since 1933 when Hitler became chancellor? I don't think many people would agree with that. Does that mean that Hitler wasn't a fascist in 1923 when he was generally viewed as a clown by polite, elite society and ended up in prison after a pathetic failed putsch? No, of course not. He was a fascist and his followers were fascists long before they exercised any power much less complete authoritarian power. Note also that the people I referred to as polite, elite society were exactly the people who we now believe fucked up royally by not opposing Hitler or taking him seriously when he should and could have been squashed like a bug. Me? I'm always going to err on the side of bug squashing especially when I think the threat is greater here now than it was in Germany in 1923 (though conditions in Germany then were far worse than conditions here now which makes a direct comparison more difficult).
Bubba I can always count on a thought provoking response from you and John A. I appreciate it. I have not read the Wolfe essay but I will check it out.

This is less of me being pedantic, although I admit that’s what it looks like, and more just voicing my frustration with the same old same old being taken to what I suppose are the logical next steps. I’m sick to death of people reducing anyone they disagree with to the most brutish and disgusting lowest terms they can possible imagine. It has helped birth two domestic terror organizations in the form of BLM and antifa. In the case of antifa I don’t know if they were in the beginning what we see now. I tend to think they area more militant offshoot of the Occupy Wall Street movement but I don’t know that. BLM began as something much different from what we see now. What was simply a movement dedicated to awareness about police brutality came back as something much different a few months ago. I went to their website based on some things I had read and saw exactly what had been described which was someone describing herself as the group’s leader, describing the organization as a neo Marxist organization dedicated to, among other things, the destruction of “the western prescribed nuclear family.” Who in their right mind thinks these are good ideas? What do these ideas do to end police brutality or abuses of power? Pretty interesting that in last few days that has been wiped from their website after getting some attention.

In the case of antifa we see people who claim to be the good guys and the anti fascists physically assaulting people (usually people they think are easy targets) and destroying things. I have serious doubts that these people want to solve anything. And their actions show they just want keep their fist on the fool button because they enjoy creating chaos and Orange Man is just a convenient excuse. But when we don’t hold people accountable for saying things that aren’t true this is where it leads.

I’ve said before but I’ll say it again, when the volume got cranked up to eleven for Mitt Romney, I pretty much tuned out anything the loudest voices on the left had to say. The man is far from being conservative and he is surely not some sort of right wing would be dictator. You would have thought he was both of those things. I bring that up because it is why I have never taken the Orange Man outrage very seriously. He’s just in the scope right now. It’s not that he’s a fascist or dictatorial. He’s just a republican who got elected president so he’s the worst thing that has ever existed in the history of ever and everyone who voted for him is subhuman and deplorable. The very same way most conservatives couldn’t let themselves be happy even when Obama did something they liked such as see Osama bin Laden killed, the left thinks they have to hate every single thing Orange Man does. It’s ridiculous. So then we stop cari g what words actually mean and decide to call him a fascist dictator. It totally undercuts any legitimate criticisms of him.

What I can not understand about the democrats and their base is how they STILL can’t seem to do any self reflection and look at the ways in which they are their own worst enemy. There is a large portion of this country that isn’t willing to turn their head the other way at the sight of riots and say, “Well they have a right to be angry.” And when you’ve got elected Democrats saying things like “Stay in the streets!” and “You need to go out and find Trump supporters, surround them, and let them know they are not welcome.” you get what we see happening and get people unwilling to listen to even the legitimate points that Democrats make. It would be like me throwing a rock through somebody’s window, waiting for them to come out front, punching them in the face and calling them a piece of shit, and then telling them they’ve got a slack tire on their car and need to put some air in it. Why would I think they even heard the last part?

I’m just sick of this stuff. I’m tired of people acting like they’re perfect and whoever isn’t like them is irredeemable. I’m sick of people with average intelligence acting like they are the voice of authority on everything. And I’m tired of the idea that if people don’t get what they want in an election they’ll just smash things, break stuff, and attack people but at the same time want to be treated with respect and like they have legitimate points. It doesn’t work that way. And I worry about what’s coming because nobody seems to be willing to call these people out and that means it will only get worse and eventually there will be an equal and opposite reaction. And when that happens I know like I know my own name that that reaction will be characterized as proof that anyone right of center is a nazi. It’s like a kid who picks at another kid constantly but calls him the bully and then gets punched in the face and cries, “See?! I told you he was mean!”

I worry about the country my daughter is growing up in where police stand meekly by as rioters to riot things under the orders of democrat mayors and DAs while we are told it’s Orange Man’s fault. Then the same police saddle up when somebody isn’t observing social distancing or wearing a Covid mask.

I could go on a while but that’s enough.
Last edited by Cole Younger on Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Cole Younger wrote:
beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:23 am
Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:20 am
Politically progressive people in big cities think of themselves as far more tolerant of those different from them compared to someone from the rural South. But how often do these people encounter anyone who isn’t pretty much exactly like them? I do t mean just passing the. On the street either. White, liberal, upper middle class people from the city aren’t exactly living in the epicenter of diversity in terms of where their time is spent and who their neighbors are.
Have you read Tom Wolfe's essay "Radical Chic"? Here's a summary from Wikipedia: "Radical chic" is a term coined by journalist Tom Wolfe in his 1970 essay "Radical Chic: That Party at Lenny's" to describe the adoption and promotion of radical political causes by celebrities, socialites, and high society. In languages such as American English, French and Italian the term has become widely used to indicate people identifying themselves as socialists or radical leftists while conducting upper-class lifestyles." Point being that this phenomenon has been around for a long time and is part truth and part cliche and, at least imho, not especially relevant to what I thought were the topics on the table.

Cole, I've puzzled over this for a couple of days now, even wrote a longish response to try to help me figure it out, and I still don't get it but in the perhaps vain hope of trying to keep things at least in arm's length of the rails if not exactly on them, let me offer this thought, which in some ways echoes and expands on TC's: Your main point seems to be that this country is demonstrably not a fascist dictatorship, therefore those who use the terms "fascism" and "fascist" to describe Trump himself as well as any number of developments/events either don't know what they're talking about or are totally alarmist without cause. What I don't understand is why your standard is "if it's not a textbook, done deal fascist revolution it's not fascist at all."

I can't speak for "everyone" of course, but I know that for myself and for at least most people I know, we use the terms fascist and fascism to describe tendencies, beliefs, preferences and risk of occurrence. IOW, when I call Trump a fascist, I'm not saying that he's a dictator w/ absolute power, I'm saying that he'd like to be and that he's said something or done something that moves this country closer to that state. The same when I say, for example, that the scary as fuck storm troopers in Portland or forced hysterectomies are examples of fascism. That's because they are. It doesn't mean, and I don't see how it can fairly be thought to mean, that I think a fascist revolution has occurred and all that's left is to fill the concentration camps and prisons. It means we're on a slippery slope that poses great danger, both in the immediate moment and for the future. And I will argue with you from today until the end of time that (a) those are appropriate uses of the terms fascist and fascism and (b) that the many, many examples I would cite in that argument are in fact examples of fascism and fascists that if left unchecked and unopposed would in fact lead to a state of fascism that would satisfy your requirements and why the heck would anyone want to wait that long to respond?

I think TC's reference to kristallnacht is particularly apposite. While some would disagree I think it's fair to say that most historians agree that it was not until after Kristallnacht that Hitler consolidated his power firmly enough to fully pursue his agenda in terms of absolute dictatorial rule, conquest of other countries and elimination of the Jews. Kristallnacht occurred in 1938. Does that mean Hitler wasn't a fascist and that Germany wasn't a fascist country at least since 1933 when Hitler became chancellor? I don't think many people would agree with that. Does that mean that Hitler wasn't a fascist in 1923 when he was generally viewed as a clown by polite, elite society and ended up in prison after a pathetic failed putsch? No, of course not. He was a fascist and his followers were fascists long before they exercised any power much less complete authoritarian power. Note also that the people I referred to as polite, elite society were exactly the people who we now believe fucked up royally by not opposing Hitler or taking him seriously when he should and could have been squashed like a bug. Me? I'm always going to err on the side of bug squashing especially when I think the threat is greater here now than it was in Germany in 1923 (though conditions in Germany then were far worse than conditions here now which makes a direct comparison more difficult).
Bubba I can always count on a thought provoking response from you and John A. I appreciate it. I have not read the Wolfe essay but I will check it out.

This is less of me being pedantic, although I admit that’s what it looks like, and more just voicing my frustration with the same old same old being taken to what I suppose are the logical next steps. I’m sick to death of people reducing anyone they disagree with to the most brutish and disgusting lowest terms they can possible imagine. It has helped birth two domestic terror organizations in the form of BLM and antifa. In the case of antifa I don’t know if they were in the beginning what we see now. I tend to think they area more militant offshoot of the Occupy Wall Street movement but I don’t know that. BLM began as something much different from what we see now. What was simply a movement dedicated to awareness about police brutality came back as something much different a few months ago. I went to their website based on some things I had read and saw exactly what had been described which was someone describing herself as the group’s leader, describing the organization as a neo Marxist organization dedicated to, among other things, the destruction of “the western prescribed nuclear family.” Who in their right mind thinks these are good ideas? What do these ideas do to end police brutality or abuses of power? Pretty interesting that in last few days that has been wiped from their website after getting some attention.

In the case of antifa we see people who claim to be the good guys and the anti fascists physically assaulting people (usually people they think are easy targets) and destroying things. I have serious doubts that these people want to solve anything. And their actions show they just want keep their fist on the fool button because they enjoy creating chaos and Orange Man is just a convenient excuse. But when we don’t hold people accountable for saying things that aren’t true this is where it leads.

I’ve said before but I’ll say it again, when the volume got cranked up to eleven for Mitt Romney, I pretty much tuned out anything the loudest voices on the left had to say. The man is far from being conservative and he is surely not some sort of right wing would be dictator. You would have thought he was both of those things. I bring that up because it is why I have never taken the Orange Man outrage very seriously. He’s just in the scope right now. It’s not that he’s a fascist or dictatorial. He’s just a republican who got elected president so he’s the worst thing that has ever existed in the history of ever and everyone who voted for him is subhuman and deplorable. The very same way most conservatives couldn’t let themselves be happy even when Obama did something they liked such as see Osama bin Laden killed, the left thinks they have to hate every single thing Orange Man does. It’s ridiculous. So then we stop cari g what words actually mean and decide to call him a fascist dictator. It totally undercuts any legitimate criticisms of him.

What I can not understand about the democrats and their base is how they STILL can’t seem to do any self reflection and look at the ways in which they are their own worst enemy. There is a large portion of this country that isn’t willing to turn their head the other way at the sight of riots and say, “Well they have a right to be angry.” And when you’ve got elected Democrats saying things like “Stay in the streets!” and “You need to fog out and find Trump supporters, surround them, and let them know they are not welcome.” you get what we see happening and get people unwilling to listen to even the legitimate points that Democrats make. It would be like me throwing a rock through somebody’s window, waiting for them to come out front, punching them in the face and calling them a piece of shit, and then telling them they’ve got a slack tire on their car and need to put some air in it. Why would I think they even heard the last part?

I’m just sick of this stuff. I’m tired of people acting like they’re perfect and whoever isn’t like them is irredeemable. I’m sick of people with average intelligence acting like they are the voice of authority on everything. And I’m tired of the idea that if people don’t get what they want in an election they’ll just smash things, break stuff, and attack people but at the same time want to be treated with respect and like they have legitimate points. It doesn’t work that way. And I worry about what’s coming because nobody seems to be willing to call these people out and that means it will only get worse and eventually there will be an equal and opposite reaction. And when that happens I know like I know my own name that that reaction will be characterized as proof that anyone left of center is a nazi. It’s like a kid who picks at another kid constantly but calls him the bully and then gets punched in the face and cries, “See?! I told you he was mean!”

I worry about the country my daughter is growing up in where police stand meekly by as rioters to riot things under the orders of democrat mayors and DAs while we are told it’s Orange Man’s fault. Then the same police saddle up when somebody isn’t observing social distancing or wearing a Covid mask.

I could go on a while but that’s enough.
Not everything you write is wrong but there’s enough wrong that I don’t have the energy to debate it. I did want to ask this though, where did you get this idea about BLM being Marxist and destroying the family. The official Black Lives Matter Global Network website list their mission statement as follows:

-#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.

We are expansive. We are a collective of liberators who believe in an inclusive and spacious movement. We also believe that in order to win and bring as many people with us along the way, we must move beyond the narrow nationalism that is all too prevalent in Black communities. We must ensure we are building a movement that brings all of us to the front.

We affirm the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, undocumented folks, folks with records, women, and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. Our network centers those who have been marginalized within Black liberation movements.

We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise.

We affirm our humanity, our contributions to this society, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.

The call for Black lives to matter is a rallying cry for ALL Black lives striving for liberation.-

I’ve donated to this organization, I agree with everything in this mission statement and can’t see how any reasonable person wouldn’t agree with at least the majority of it.


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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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I saw it with my own eyes on their website TC. It’s no longer there. I can’t prove it.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Cole Younger wrote:I saw it with my own eyes on their website TC. It’s no longer there. I can’t prove it.
I’ve researched and you’re right that language existed at one point. The board of the movement voted to remove it. I don’t agree with that language but I do get the point of a larger collective being a useful tool in the black community that has struggled with maintaining family structure. The language is inflammatory and misguided, the point is well taken given the struggles of their communities. I apologize for the error. I had not heard that before.


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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

I can't speak for BLM, but I can say that not everything done in their name is rooted in the organization. I can walk downtown, throw a rock through a store window, and spraypaint "BLM" on the wall, but that doesn't mean BLM was responsible. I think we're seeing this a lot right now as a way to sabotage the movement.

As for Antifa, I'm still unconvinced that there is any "there" there in terms of structure, leadership, or mission statement. I think the vast majority of things done in the name of Antifa are being done by anarchists and agitators. If Orange Man would stop giving them attention, they would go away.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:26 pm
Cole Younger wrote:I saw it with my own eyes on their website TC. It’s no longer there. I can’t prove it.
I’ve researched and you’re right that language existed at one point. The board of the movement voted to remove it. I don’t agree with that language but I do get the point of a larger collective being a useful tool in the black community that has struggled with maintaining family structure. The language is inflammatory and misguided, the point is well taken given the struggles of their communities. I apologize for the error. I had not heard that before.


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Don’t apologize, man. If you told me something really controversial and wrong about someone that I sympathize with like that, that I had not heard or seen I would have questions.
Last edited by Cole Younger on Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Zip City wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:32 pm
I can't speak for BLM, but I can say that not everything done in their name is rooted in the organization. I can walk downtown, throw a rock through a store window, and spraypaint "BLM" on the wall, but that doesn't mean BLM was responsible. I think we're seeing this a lot right now as a way to sabotage the movement.

As for Antifa, I'm still unconvinced that there is any "there" there in terms of structure, leadership, or mission statement. I think the vast majority of things done in the name of Antifa are being done by anarchists and agitators. If Orange Man would stop giving them attention, they would go away.
Totally reasonable, Zip. I definitely think you’re right about all but the last sentence. It’s not that I necessarily think you’re wrong about that I’m just not so sure. I think if that happened and the Democrats stood up and said, “We in no way support what these people are doing and totally condemn them and their actions.” it would possibly Peter out.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:54 pm
I have not read the Wolfe essay but I will check it out.
Just FYI, the "Lenny" in the title of the essay is Leonard Bernstein and the "party" is a fundraiser he threw on the Upper East Side of Manhattan for the Black Panthers when they were a real thing.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

How's this for timing? From today's online (I assume tomorrow's official edition) of the WaPo from Dana Milbank. I don't present it for truth but as remarkably reflective of the discussion here.

America, this is not a drill. The Reichstag is burning.

For five years, my colleagues and I have taken pains to avoid Nazi comparisons. It is usually hyperbolic, and counterproductive, to label the right “fascists” in the way those on the right reflexively label the left “socialists.” But this is no longer a matter of name-calling.

With his repeated refusals this week to accept the peaceful transfer of power — the bedrock principle that has sustained American democracy for 228 years — President Trump has put the United States, in some ways, where Germany was in 1933. That is when Adolf Hitler, the appointed leader, used the suspicious burning of the German parliament to turn a democracy into a totalitarian state.

Overwrought, you say? Then ask Yale historian Timothy Snyder, a top authority on Nazism and Stalinism. “The Reichstag has been on a slow burn since June,” he told me. “The language Trump uses to talk about Black Lives Matter and the protests is very similar to the language Hitler used — that there’s some vague left-wing conspiracy based in the cities that is destroying the country.”
It's a battle for the very soul of the USA

Cole Younger
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

One thing is for sure, before long we will know who is right. In the event that I’m wrong, come to Georgia, I’ve got guns.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

beantownbubba
Posts: 19204
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:54 pm
This is less of me being pedantic, although I admit that’s what it looks like, and more just voicing my frustration with the same old same old being taken to what I suppose are the logical next steps. I’m sick to death of people reducing anyone they disagree with to the most brutish and disgusting lowest terms they can possible imagine. It has helped birth two domestic terror organizations in the form of BLM and antifa. In the case of antifa I don’t know if they were in the beginning what we see now. I tend to think they area more militant offshoot of the Occupy Wall Street movement but I don’t know that. BLM began as something much different from what we see now. What was simply a movement dedicated to awareness about police brutality came back as something much different a few months ago. I went to their website based on some things I had read and saw exactly what had been described which was someone describing herself as the group’s leader, describing the organization as a neo Marxist organization dedicated to, among other things, the destruction of “the western prescribed nuclear family.” Who in their right mind thinks these are good ideas? What do these ideas do to end police brutality or abuses of power? Pretty interesting that in last few days that has been wiped from their website after getting some attention.

In the case of antifa we see people who claim to be the good guys and the anti fascists physically assaulting people (usually people they think are easy targets) and destroying things. I have serious doubts that these people want to solve anything. And their actions show they just want keep their fist on the fool button because they enjoy creating chaos and Orange Man is just a convenient excuse. But when we don’t hold people accountable for saying things that aren’t true this is where it leads.

I’ve said before but I’ll say it again, when the volume got cranked up to eleven for Mitt Romney, I pretty much tuned out anything the loudest voices on the left had to say. The man is far from being conservative and he is surely not some sort of right wing would be dictator. You would have thought he was both of those things. I bring that up because it is why I have never taken the Orange Man outrage very seriously. He’s just in the scope right now. It’s not that he’s a fascist or dictatorial. He’s just a republican who got elected president so he’s the worst thing that has ever existed in the history of ever and everyone who voted for him is subhuman and deplorable. The very same way most conservatives couldn’t let themselves be happy even when Obama did something they liked such as see Osama bin Laden killed, the left thinks they have to hate every single thing Orange Man does. It’s ridiculous. So then we stop cari g what words actually mean and decide to call him a fascist dictator. It totally undercuts any legitimate criticisms of him.

What I can not understand about the democrats and their base is how they STILL can’t seem to do any self reflection and look at the ways in which they are their own worst enemy. There is a large portion of this country that isn’t willing to turn their head the other way at the sight of riots and say, “Well they have a right to be angry.” And when you’ve got elected Democrats saying things like “Stay in the streets!” and “You need to go out and find Trump supporters, surround them, and let them know they are not welcome.” you get what we see happening and get people unwilling to listen to even the legitimate points that Democrats make. It would be like me throwing a rock through somebody’s window, waiting for them to come out front, punching them in the face and calling them a piece of shit, and then telling them they’ve got a slack tire on their car and need to put some air in it. Why would I think they even heard the last part?

I’m just sick of this stuff. I’m tired of people acting like they’re perfect and whoever isn’t like them is irredeemable. I’m sick of people with average intelligence acting like they are the voice of authority on everything. And I’m tired of the idea that if people don’t get what they want in an election they’ll just smash things, break stuff, and attack people but at the same time want to be treated with respect and like they have legitimate points. It doesn’t work that way. And I worry about what’s coming because nobody seems to be willing to call these people out and that means it will only get worse and eventually there will be an equal and opposite reaction. And when that happens I know like I know my own name that that reaction will be characterized as proof that anyone right of center is a nazi. It’s like a kid who picks at another kid constantly but calls him the bully and then gets punched in the face and cries, “See?! I told you he was mean!”

I worry about the country my daughter is growing up in where police stand meekly by as rioters to riot things under the orders of democrat mayors and DAs while we are told it’s Orange Man’s fault. Then the same police saddle up when somebody isn’t observing social distancing or wearing a Covid mask.
Cole, this post of yours interests me on multiple levels but at the end of the day, there's just too much here. Just thinking about it exhausts me, the thought of responding to it all paralyzes me. So just a couple of targeted thoughts, without full explanation but hopefully enough to make the points I want to make.

What's most fascinating about your post is that I agree with a number of separate parts of it yet would still say that I pretty much completely disagree with the entire thing. That's a hard balance to achieve :)

There's no question that Dems/libs/left types have cried wolf too often. I recall us discussing this same subject w/ respect to W, McCain and Romney. FWIW, you might be surprised at the number of people including me, who have expressed regrets, particularly over W. Unfortunately, retrospect is not as good as real time and not learning from the lessons even when you recognize them is, shall we say, problematic.

I think in general we humans have not learned how to live w/ our tools and toys and they are, if not quite controlling us, heading in that direction. The internet, social media, the approximately 8 hour news cycle, endless news, "news" and talking head shows that put a premium on immediate response, controversy and standing out from the crowd, etc etc. We are all subject to it and it is making life demonstrably worse.

Finally, this is not our first rodeo, Cole and I remain particularly frustrated and fearful that you still do not see Trump as different in kind from what came before. I get your original resistance to the idea based in part on the calling wolf stuff mentioned above, but we've now had almost 4 years of the man in action and I don't understand how you can see him as just another politician. It baffles me. I cannot tell you how much time I spend puzzling over this. I write this about me and my resulting fear, frustration and feelings of helplessness, not as a criticism of your POV.
It's a battle for the very soul of the USA

Cole Younger
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:53 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:54 pm
This is less of me being pedantic, although I admit that’s what it looks like, and more just voicing my frustration with the same old same old being taken to what I suppose are the logical next steps. I’m sick to death of people reducing anyone they disagree with to the most brutish and disgusting lowest terms they can possible imagine. It has helped birth two domestic terror organizations in the form of BLM and antifa. In the case of antifa I don’t know if they were in the beginning what we see now. I tend to think they area more militant offshoot of the Occupy Wall Street movement but I don’t know that. BLM began as something much different from what we see now. What was simply a movement dedicated to awareness about police brutality came back as something much different a few months ago. I went to their website based on some things I had read and saw exactly what had been described which was someone describing herself as the group’s leader, describing the organization as a neo Marxist organization dedicated to, among other things, the destruction of “the western prescribed nuclear family.” Who in their right mind thinks these are good ideas? What do these ideas do to end police brutality or abuses of power? Pretty interesting that in last few days that has been wiped from their website after getting some attention.

In the case of antifa we see people who claim to be the good guys and the anti fascists physically assaulting people (usually people they think are easy targets) and destroying things. I have serious doubts that these people want to solve anything. And their actions show they just want keep their fist on the fool button because they enjoy creating chaos and Orange Man is just a convenient excuse. But when we don’t hold people accountable for saying things that aren’t true this is where it leads.

I’ve said before but I’ll say it again, when the volume got cranked up to eleven for Mitt Romney, I pretty much tuned out anything the loudest voices on the left had to say. The man is far from being conservative and he is surely not some sort of right wing would be dictator. You would have thought he was both of those things. I bring that up because it is why I have never taken the Orange Man outrage very seriously. He’s just in the scope right now. It’s not that he’s a fascist or dictatorial. He’s just a republican who got elected president so he’s the worst thing that has ever existed in the history of ever and everyone who voted for him is subhuman and deplorable. The very same way most conservatives couldn’t let themselves be happy even when Obama did something they liked such as see Osama bin Laden killed, the left thinks they have to hate every single thing Orange Man does. It’s ridiculous. So then we stop cari g what words actually mean and decide to call him a fascist dictator. It totally undercuts any legitimate criticisms of him.

What I can not understand about the democrats and their base is how they STILL can’t seem to do any self reflection and look at the ways in which they are their own worst enemy. There is a large portion of this country that isn’t willing to turn their head the other way at the sight of riots and say, “Well they have a right to be angry.” And when you’ve got elected Democrats saying things like “Stay in the streets!” and “You need to go out and find Trump supporters, surround them, and let them know they are not welcome.” you get what we see happening and get people unwilling to listen to even the legitimate points that Democrats make. It would be like me throwing a rock through somebody’s window, waiting for them to come out front, punching them in the face and calling them a piece of shit, and then telling them they’ve got a slack tire on their car and need to put some air in it. Why would I think they even heard the last part?

I’m just sick of this stuff. I’m tired of people acting like they’re perfect and whoever isn’t like them is irredeemable. I’m sick of people with average intelligence acting like they are the voice of authority on everything. And I’m tired of the idea that if people don’t get what they want in an election they’ll just smash things, break stuff, and attack people but at the same time want to be treated with respect and like they have legitimate points. It doesn’t work that way. And I worry about what’s coming because nobody seems to be willing to call these people out and that means it will only get worse and eventually there will be an equal and opposite reaction. And when that happens I know like I know my own name that that reaction will be characterized as proof that anyone right of center is a nazi. It’s like a kid who picks at another kid constantly but calls him the bully and then gets punched in the face and cries, “See?! I told you he was mean!”

I worry about the country my daughter is growing up in where police stand meekly by as rioters to riot things under the orders of democrat mayors and DAs while we are told it’s Orange Man’s fault. Then the same police saddle up when somebody isn’t observing social distancing or wearing a Covid mask.
Cole, this post of yours interests me on multiple levels but at the end of the day, there's just too much here. Just thinking about it exhausts me, the thought of responding to it all paralyzes me. So just a couple of targeted thoughts, without full explanation but hopefully enough to make the points I want to make.

What's most fascinating about your post is that I agree with a number of separate parts of it yet would still say that I pretty much completely disagree with the entire thing. That's a hard balance to achieve :)

There's no question that Dems/libs/left types have cried wolf too often. I recall us discussing this same subject w/ respect to W, McCain and Romney. FWIW, you might be surprised at the number of people including me, who have expressed regrets, particularly over W. Unfortunately, retrospect is not as good as real time and not learning from the lessons even when you recognize them is, shall we say, problematic.

I think in general we humans have not learned how to live w/ our tools and toys and they are, if not quite controlling us, heading in that direction. The internet, social media, the approximately 8 hour news cycle, endless news, "news" and talking head shows that put a premium on immediate response, controversy and standing out from the crowd, etc etc. We are all subject to it and it is making life demonstrably worse.

Finally, this is not our first rodeo, Cole and I remain particularly frustrated and fearful that you still do not see Trump as different in kind from what came before. I get your original resistance to the idea based in part on the calling wolf stuff mentioned above, but we've now had almost 4 years of the man in action and I don't understand how you can see him as just another politician. It baffles me. I cannot tell you how much time I spend puzzling over this. I write this about me and my resulting fear, frustration and feelings of helplessness, not as a criticism of your POV.
Just know this. If Orange Man turns out to be what you worry he is, I’ll be on your side and not his. Like I said somewhere back there, it’s not that I don’t see the bad things about him. I just don’t think many people in Washington are any better. You may not have to be a narcissistic sociopath or psychopath to want to be in Washington but it sure helps. Holy shit. All this typing and I’m right back where I started.😆

You’re a good man, bubba. We might not agree on politics often but I always know you’re coming at it in good faith and that you’re honest. You’ve got my respect for whatever that’s worth.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

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