beantownbubba wrote:

Flea wrote:

beantownbubba wrote:Foreign policy is no easy field to master. It is a key element of a president's portfolio and very few have the necessary skills and experience when they arrive in the oval office. So a learning curve is required and a new president should be given the time to get up to speed (if possible, sometimes events dictate otherwise).

But what do we do w/ a president who refuses to learn, who glories in his ignorance? There has always been an isolationist strain in American politics and events consistently prove those folks wrong, yet they persist. So Trump is not alone on that. What does separate him from the pack is his astonishing inability to understand what in fact made America great in the second half of the 20th century, that golden age he would like to return to. What made America great was dominating the world order, serving as the reserve currency, serving as the defender of last (and sometimes first) resort in places near and far and essentially keeping the peace intact (big picture) and the shipping lanes open. The United States made Germany, France, Japan and to some extent the UK what they are today and we did so for OUR benefit (plus of course, being American, we're just really nice guys). The idea that they are ripping us off, taking advantage of us, keeping our economy down is not just wrong, it's bizarre. He's already attacked the status quo in ways that do not seem calculated to reap any benefits for the USA, but if he spends this week pulling the plug on the "western alliance," Germany, France and the others will lose a lot but the US will lose at least as much. The potential for disaster is real (though I can't judge the likelihood) and the way we got here is pretty much insane, or somewhere on the border between irrationality and insanity, or as I like to call it, just plain nuts.

My prediction: NATO is going to fold, Western Europe will forge a new treaty organization without the US or England, and Putin is going to take over the Baltic States again. Anyone up for a wager?

At even odds? What was I saying about just plain nuts? LOL

I don't think we are fully grappling with the possibility that we could be on the on the cusp of a completely new era, a fundamental reshaping of the international order. And I don't mean over the course of the Trump Administration. I mean by next week.

It sounds outlandish to even say it out loud, and some can easily call this hyperbole. I hope to God it does not happen. But we would be insane not to grapple with the possibility.

Trump clearly wants to pull the US out of NATO. He doesn't believe in the alliance (or any alliances); he thinks our allies take advantage of us; he complains that NATO is worse than NAFTA(whatever that means); he seeks purely transactional relations with our closest partners.

Should other NATO members meet their 2% of GDP defense spending targets? Absolutely. Trump is on solid ground to push for it. But to consistently trash allies, undervalue their contributions to our security, threaten to withdraw US troops -- that's him wanting out.

Perhaps most damaging is that his rhetoric is building up hostility to NATO among his supporters. It's a huge breach in the consensus American support for the alliance that has undergirded Western security for 70 years, and it won't disappear when Trump does.

What's more, his passionate desire for friendship with Putin is emboldening Russia & risks doing further damage to European security. If he recognizes Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea, if he seeks to tone down sanctions on Russia over its aggression vs Ukraine, watch out.

This could play out in the next 2 weeks. If he sabotages the NATO summit the way he did the G-7, don't be surprised if he actually makes a move toward exiting NATO. Think he won't? On what basis? Because his staff restrains him? Because of his strategic understanding? Please.

If we get there, the implications are innumerable & terrifying: Russia pawing at Baltics &other E & C European states; breakdown of joint defense structures; withdrawal of US troops from Euro bases; less restrained German foreign policy; weaker US power projection to Eurasia.

That just scratches the surface. We honestly cannot begin to imagine living in a new era without these international organizing structures. Because for all of NATO's challenges, no sane person or American political leader has or would contemplate such a reckless move.

But it could happen. Our President doesn't know the history or strategy, doesn't listen to experts, personalizes everything & makes it transactional, & loves the drama of the outrageous move that dominates cable TV coverage. For him, pulling out of NATO is all gain, no cost.

Even as I write this, it sounds fantastical. I will be the happiest person on the planet if I look back at this thread and say, man, you were way overreacting. But we need to be ready for this awful scenario to play out.

I repeat: we are potentially on the verge of a wildly dangerous cascade of events that will devastate our interests, weaken our leadership, abandon our allies, embolden our adversaries, and make the world a darker and more brutal place.

We have done no planning for this course of action. No one thinks it is a good idea. But one man, whose knowledge and values are wanting, whose motivation is suspect, and whose supporters follow him blindly, could take us there. END

dime in the gutter wrote:

Flea wrote:Is Trump physically defecting to Moscow via Helsinki??

Osita Nwanevu wrote:It’s clear enough that Trump and the Kennedys are close, and there really is something sinister to be gleaned from that fact. The United States may not be controlled by lizard people or the Freemasons, but it is genuinely run by a small club of elite individuals, many of whom know and fraternize with each other. Every now and then, certain members of that club are appointed for life to a secretive chamber where robes are donned, certain rituals are enacted, and arcane texts are consulted for guidance as to how we are to be ruled. The real conspiracy here is wealth and its impact on anti-democratic institutions, a conspiracy that can’t be seen clearly or fought against without systematic thinking about the way our politics work.

John A Arkansawyer wrote:The real conspiracy here is wealth and its impact on anti-democratic institutions, a conspiracy that can’t be seen clearly or fought against without systematic thinking about the way our politics work.

dime in the gutter wrote:

beantownbubba wrote:Not only does the President need to go, so do all 535 members of Congress in both parties in both houses. I don't know how else to begin to clean up this mess. Since that will never ever happen, one is left w/ the question, what next? I don't know but it's not gonna be pretty.

beantownbubba wrote:There's no way around it: Congress is a laughingstock and Congresspeople are pathetic jokes. The stupidity on display was staggering, to say nothing of the complete lack of dignity and seriousness of purpose.

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:

dime in the gutter wrote:

Damn, Rick Pitino is lookin’ rough

cortez the killer wrote:

Zip City wrote:No one is allowed to act surprised about this. This is exactly the man he has always been.

Put another way: "I can't believe the tiger ate MY face!" says person who voted for face-eating tiger

Tequila Cowboy wrote:

Zip City wrote:No one is allowed to act surprised about this. This is exactly the man he has always been.

Put another way: "I can't believe the tiger ate MY face!" says person who voted for face-eating tiger

I actually was surprised. Did it shock me that it would be a shitshow? Of course not, but that was so far beyond anything that guy has ever done that I was physically shaking.

tinnitus photography wrote: