The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

[Cole Younger]

I respect your opinion, but comparing Obama and Trump is such a false equivalence that I can’t get past it

That's up to you, Zip. But that's part of the problem. You can't get past it because you immediately locked onto that and you were done. I'm not comparing them except that no matter what you think about it, the ideologues on the right were as repulsed by Obama as you are by Trump. And they were as hysterical about him as some people are about Trump.

Screechers gonna screech. Can't argue with that

Whether or not they are the same doesn't matter to me.

It matters A LOT to me

Neither of them are the worst people who have ever lived and the Hitler comparisons people have made about both indicate more about those who make them than either of the two presidents.

Well "not Hitler" is a pretty low standard

Remember, it wasn't so long ago that George Bush was Hitler and the worst person who has ever lived. People get so hyperbolic and in such a frenzy about the other guy. I will make you a bet, after Trump is gone, whoever the next Republican president is will be called the end of America too and it will be like Trump was never even president.

Disagree. Trump is different.


But you know what, you and I WILL probably be fine. I'm not gay, I'm not a woman, I'm not black, I don't work in manufacturing, I'm not hispanic.

If Trump succeeds at putting a hardcore conservative onto the Supreme Court (and there's little doubt he can be stopped), we will see major reversals on Roe v Wade, gay marriage, and many other social issues. I cannot rationalize any of it with "it doesn't affect me, so why should I worry?"

tl;dr this is a pivotal point in our country's history, and all signs point towards the U.S. taking a gigantic step backwards. It makes me so sad for my kids

I laughed out loud at "Not Hitler is a pretty low standard" Agreed.

I don't believe that Trump is different. For the same reason that I outlined above. People said Bush was different. He was worse than anything that ever came before they said. The word "evil" was used to describe him pretty regularly. No he wasnt. He was a bad president. He did some things that an still mad about to this day. But he wasn't evil.

Trump is only different because he is right now. Just as Obama was the worst thing ever to conservatives because he was the Democrat in the white house right then.

Remember a scant six years ago when Mitt Romney was evil and something to be feared? Mitt freaking Romney . The dude could make audio books of himself talking as a guaranteed cure for insomnia. But in 2012 he was a monster. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm not arguing in Trump's favor. I'm just pointing out why the"America is done. We are fucked" stuff is overblown.

I don't believe there is going to be any sort of government attack on the people that you mentioned. But I do believe the Democrats are going to say there is whether there is or isnt. That's what both parties do when they dont have any control. Even if that were Trumps aim he wouldn't be able to pull it off. That's what the cheerleaders for the big two parties fall for every time. They believe these guys when they say they are going to go to Washington and change everything. No they arent. The system is set up so that they cant.

As for the signs pointing to us lurching irreversibly to the right, conservatives thought we were going to go lurching irreversibly to the left when the Democrats had the presidency and both houses of congress. We didnt and it wasn't long before the Democrats didn't have both houses of congress anymore. The Republican party had been pronounced dead. What do you want to bet the republicans lose at least the Senate in the mid terms? I bet they do. That's how this stuff goes. It was set up like that. And since I don't like either party for different reasons I'm glad neither can just take permanent control of even have control for very long. And it's exactly why I don't worry about this stuff very much.

[Zip City]

Sorry, strongly disagree. Personally, I never thought Bush was evil or Hitler (Dick Cheney, on the other hand...)

I think you have to have your head buried in the sand if you can’t see how Trump is different

And yes, there WILL be an attack on rights. We’ve already seen it just this week in SCOTUS

[Cole Younger]

Sorry, strongly disagree. Personally, I never thought Bush was evil or Hitler (Dick Cheney, on the other hand...)

I think you have to have your head buried in the sand if you can’t see how Trump is different

And yes, there WILL be an attack on rights. We’ve already seen it just this week in SCOTUS

I added some to it. Check it out if you feel like it.

You don't have to have your head buried in the sand. You need only to not be emotional about it. I'm not.

[Zip City]

Sorry, strongly disagree. Personally, I never thought Bush was evil or Hitler (Dick Cheney, on the other hand...)

I think you have to have your head buried in the sand if you can’t see how Trump is different

And yes, there WILL be an attack on rights. We’ve already seen it just this week in SCOTUS

I added some to it. Check it out if you feel like it.

You don't have to have your head buried in the sand. You need only to not be emotional about it. I'm not.

Congress is useless, no matter who is in charge. I'm not worried about them (directly)

SCOTUS, on the other hand, scares the shit out of me. Trump gets to put his second justice onto the bench, making two justices who will sit for 30-40 years. We've gone from Kennedy as a swing vote to a solid 5-4 conservative majority. Every single decision about civil rights, big business, religious "freedom", etc. is already predetermined

[Cole Younger]

Sorry, strongly disagree. Personally, I never thought Bush was evil or Hitler (Dick Cheney, on the other hand...)

I think you have to have your head buried in the sand if you can’t see how Trump is different

And yes, there WILL be an attack on rights. We’ve already seen it just this week in SCOTUS

I added some to it. Check it out if you feel like it.

You don't have to have your head buried in the sand. You need only to not be emotional about it. I'm not.

Congress is useless, no matter who is in charge. I'm not worried about them (directly)

SCOTUS, on the other hand, scares the shit out of me. Trump gets to put his second justice onto the bench, making two justices who will sit for 30-40 years. We've gone from Kennedy as a swing vote to a solid 5-4 conservative majority. Every single decision about civil rights, big business, religious "freedom", etc. is already predetermined

Man I find myself in a weird position. As a conservative libertarian who loathes the big government dream of the Democratic party, I'm the only one among a bunch liberal democrats and socialists who doesn't think they have lost their country. I'm trying to cheer y'all up and you seem determined to tell me "stick a fork in us. We're done". This is a place I never thought I would find myself.

[Zip City]

I appreciate your optimism. I just don't share it. I hope you're right and I'm wrong

[John A Arkansawyer]

I appreciate your optimism. I just don't share it. I hope you're right and I'm wrong

I'm cautiously optimistic myself. I think things are worse than Cole does, but when I compare this moment in history to others--say, South Africa in 1977--"fucked" is not exactly the word that comes to mind. This is a fight and fights suck to be in (unless you like to fight), but that doesn't mean we'll lose. I like our chances. People facing much worse have often done much better.

Reliance on the courts to make social change was a bad idea and a lazy strategy. Look what a comprehensive political movement Civil Rights was. Had they lost some of those cases, do you doubt they would have made some progress through straight-up politics? Less progress at a higher cost, which again sucks, but it's better than losing, even losing on the cheap.

We're back to politics of the general sort that made progress last time. It's going to be rough, but it's vaguely possible I'll see a distinctly better world in my lifetime. You're half my age. Barring bad luck and real dumb leadership, you'll see it.

[Zip City]

You're half my age.

You're 86?

[John A Arkansawyer]

You're half my age.

You're 86?

Somehow I had it in my head you were in your late twenties. I'm sorry for the mistake!

ETA: But look. When you get rid of a crew of mooks, stiffs, and shtarkers like these, how can it not get better? Get Happy!

[Beebs]

"stick a fork in us. We're done".

[John A Arkansawyer]

"stick a fork in us. We're done".

I couldn't agree more! But the number of people who are freaking out like they're being herded into cattle cars right this minute and maybe they should just start walking to the border a thousand miles away like the frightened refugees they are. Not. is higher than they are. If it weren't for the actual (if premature) fear they feel, I'd mock it, and in a couple of cases (not here), I'll probably sink to doing so anyway, just to make myself feel better than someone else for a change.

[John A Arkansawyer]

And if you don't believe me, believe Dave Weigel, who is obviously an authority:

Slate: Thanks Dave. I’m glad we didn’t talk about prog rock because I know nothing about it.

It’s great. All you need to know is that it’s the best music. It’s awesome.

Slate: The little I do know, that’s not it.

Seriously, read it: Why Young Democrats Are So Open to Socialism: A closer look at Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s win and the energy on the left. If this doesn't make you see the silver lining from Hillary Clinton losing, I don't know what I can do for you. I really think if we don't all die in a nuclear-chemical-biological cataclysm soon, things will be fine fine fine.

[John A Arkansawyer]

One more note of cheer from a friend's Facebook:

I think I'm not freaking out about the impending supreme court pick because in a way, all of America is sort of becoming a strange hybrid of Texas and Florida.

If you're from either of those places you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about: a strange land that seems to run at two frequencies FM -- Lefty, AM -- Almost Fascist... things like basic services work even though you are aware your politicians basically speak in "populist" nonsense language while constantly lying and cutting mostly quiet backroom deals that put corporations in charge of everything.

The world isn't really ending, but if you're not from those places, then its understandable why you think the world is ending.

He's from Texas, but I forgive him that. We can't all be from Arkansaw.

[Flea]

One more note of cheer from a friend's Facebook:

I think I'm not freaking out about the impending supreme court pick because in a way, all of America is sort of becoming a strange hybrid of Texas and Florida.

If you're from either of those places you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about: a strange land that seems to run at two frequencies FM -- Lefty, AM -- Almost Fascist... things like basic services work even though you are aware your politicians basically speak in "populist" nonsense language while constantly lying and cutting mostly quiet backroom deals that put corporations in charge of everything.

The world isn't really ending, but if you're not from those places, then its understandable why you think the world is ending.

He's from Texas, but I forgive him that. We can't all be from Arkansaw.

It's the quiet backroom deals putting corporations in charge of everything that is fucking murdering us all. Bernie saw/sees that. It's one of the reasons he almost beat the Clinton machine.

[John A Arkansawyer]

One more note of cheer from a friend's Facebook:

I think I'm not freaking out about the impending supreme court pick because in a way, all of America is sort of becoming a strange hybrid of Texas and Florida.

If you're from either of those places you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about: a strange land that seems to run at two frequencies FM -- Lefty, AM -- Almost Fascist... things like basic services work even though you are aware your politicians basically speak in "populist" nonsense language while constantly lying and cutting mostly quiet backroom deals that put corporations in charge of everything.

The world isn't really ending, but if you're not from those places, then its understandable why you think the world is ending.

He's from Texas, but I forgive him that. We can't all be from Arkansaw.

It's the quiet backroom deals putting corporations in charge of everything that is fucking murdering us all. Bernie saw/sees that. It's one of the reasons he almost beat the Clinton machine.

My friend is an interesting cat. His mom is from Sierra Leone and he's spent a fair amount of time in Africa. He says it's very familiar. The Democrats are like the competent, corrupt governments that take a slice off the top while providing a reasonable half-ass level of services. The Republicans are like the guys white people send out to the sticks to rile people up with big promises, then steal them blind. Both crooked, but one delivers, which doesn't make them any less crooked.

[tinnitus photography]

this is just but a minuscule example of how Trump is far different from previous presidents. truly the master of trying to pass off unadulterated bullshit propaganda as truth and his followers don't bat an eye.

the guy is 100% horrible and is marching our country down an exceedingly bleak path.

[beantownbubba]

Welcome Cole! Good to see you around and even better to hear your voice. As always you speak a lot of truth, but as has been true since early '16, I can't get on board w/ "trump is just another politician." I've said it a million times before but what the hell, I'll say it again. He's different in kind, and that you don't see that scares me. Comparing the hysteria of Bush II and Obama makes some sense to me. Comparing anything to Trump doesn't. But that's just me.

More generally, the problem is not that the Democrats don't fight as dirty and desperately as the Republicans (although they don't). The problem is that the Democrats don't have a clue. If they did, they'd have options other than going lower than low. But they don't so they may be right that they have no other choice right now, which isn't exactly inspiring.

What is most strange about the reactions of Democrats/liberals to the recent setbacks is the seemingly implicit idea that things just shouldn't be this hard. I don't get that. And the Republicans have known for quite a while just how hard "things" are which is why they've achieved a couple of pretty big victories lately, why there was a Newt Gingrich, why there was a tea party, etc and why they avoided a whole bunch of defeats when Obama was president.

Once again I will say that the rarest commodity in the world is good leadership and right now the USA is completely out of that resource.

Yes, losing Anthony Kennedy puts Roe v. Wade in direct peril, but other than that (and admittedly it's important but also not permanent) I don't see what the big deal is about Kennedy. He wasn't a great jurist and he wasn't a great upholder of rights and liberties except in a couple of very specific instances. Again, those instances matter but they don't make him a bulwark or a model. And he voted w/ the majority in Citizen's United, which is right down there w/ Dred Scott, Koramatsu and a few others as among the worst reasoned, worst decisions in the history of the Court. So good riddance. And while I'm not willing to jump to conclusions about his son's dealings w/ the president, I am willing to jump to suspicions, so there's that. I've also said elsewhere that the Court's long pattern (starting well before Trump, Obama or Bush) of deciding crucial issues by 5-4 votes and making clearly political decisions that barely pay lip service to the idea of really smart people interpreting the law in disciplined fashion has steadily eroded the respect the general public has for the court. Most of us now see it simply as a numbers game w/ all decisions pre-determined by the pre-existing political leanings of the Justices. W/out respect and w/out belief that what the Court does in some sense represents justice, fairness and the rule of law, the Court is nothing. And I believe that on its current pace, the Court will be virtually irrelevant w/in my lifetime, i.e. its opinions will be disregarded or implemented only to the extent that the then ruling party agrees w/ them and at best it will be seen as an advisory body.

Riddle me this, if you would, Cole, cause it keeps me up at nite. I have absolutely supported you when you have observed that liberals are too busy talking down to others, acting superior to them and ignoring them when they're not dissing them. There were a lot of lessons to be learned there. But how does one deal w/ a significant portion of the public that 3, 10, 20 years ago would have been freaked out about Russian meddling in the election (leaving collusion aside), would have recognized it for the attack on the country by a foreign and oppositional power that it is, but now couldn't give a shit because Trump? Or that same group of people thinking it's ok as strategy and policy to simply declare that N. Korea is not a threat and that somehow that actually makes N. Korea not a threat because Trump. And in my personal opinion worst of all, the same people who claim all kinds of religious motivations and family values and consider themselves simply to be good people, still support Trump even though he is separating kids from parents at the border, losing a good number of those kids, putting many of them in cages and letting kids as young as 3 "represent" themselves in court (and justifying it!), lying about most of it and especially lying about his ability to do anything about it until, magically, he did? I'm sorry, simply saying that immigration is a threat does not make for equivalence or for an excuse or for anything other than making me sick to my stomach. It's right up there w/ the border agents who claim to be "just following orders" but it's even worse because at least they can claim their jobs are at stake (which is not to excuse their behavior but only to reflect on how bad the behavior of others w/ no personal stake is). How do I talk to people like that? Why should I? How do I communicate w/ people who simply don't care that the president lies to them directly and who simply reverse course when he does literally just like Orwell portrays in 1984? Is there any hope of finding even a spark of commonality w/ those people? These are not rhetorical questions. These are literally the questions that keep me up at night and I would appreciate any insight you or anyone else can offer in the way of a path to someplace better.

[John A Arkansawyer]

What is most strange about the reactions of Democrats/liberals to the recent setbacks is the seemingly implicit idea that things just shouldn't be this hard. I don't get that.

I do. It's two-fold.

First, they are convinced they are right and so people should do what they think is best. Why should you try and convince people who don't just get it? Isn't that one of the greatest political put-downs ever? "You just don't get it." Condescending as hell, and related to

Second, they had convinced themselves that meant all they had to do was keep the Supreme Court on their side and everything else would work out. Don't organize, don't mobilize, don't agitate, don't innovate. Just hang on to the status quo as long as you can, changes come around real soon make us...oh, sorry. Wrong children. Anyway, disproportionately depending on the courts was always a bad, undemocratic strategy, and now we're paying for it.

[beantownbubba]

What is most strange about the reactions of Democrats/liberals to the recent setbacks is the seemingly implicit idea that things just shouldn't be this hard. I don't get that.

I do. It's two-fold.

First, they are convinced they are right and so people should do what they think is best. Why should you try and convince people who don't just get it? Isn't that one of the greatest political put-downs ever? "You just don't get it." Condescending as hell, and related to

Second, they had convinced themselves that meant all they had to do was keep the Supreme Court on their side and everything else would work out. Don't organize, don't mobilize, don't agitate, don't innovate. Just hang on to the status quo as long as you can, changes come around real soon make us...oh, sorry. Wrong children. Anyway, disproportionately depending on the courts was always a bad, undemocratic strategy, and now we're paying for it.

Probably a lot of truth in the first. I don't want to believe the second because it was always a stupid and dangerous POV and i remember having that argument more than once though not all that recently. The fact that I had the argument means you're obviously right but I still don't want to believe it

PS It's not one of the greatest political put downs ever unless by great you mean a statement to which there is no good response and probably no real reason to try. Oh. Wait. I guess it is one of the greatest political put downs ever.

[Cole Younger]

I'm not ignoring you, bubba. I look forward to discussing this with you. We had a busy day with my niece's birthday. Stand by.

[Zip City]

First, they are convinced they are right and so people should do what they think is best. Why should you try and convince people who don't just get it? Isn't that one of the greatest political put-downs ever? "You just don't get it." Condescending as hell, and related to

I agree that there has been a huge problem with the messaging. The truth, however, is that there are some issues where there is simply a wrong and a right answer, and the wrong answers/opinions should not get equal billing with the right ones. The Democrats have the double problem of a) often trying to be nice to everyone and give terrible opinions equal air time and b) reversing that and coming off as dicks when they disagree.

The GOP are dicks all the time about everything, and their voting base seems to respect them for it

[tinnitus photography]

The GOP are dicks all the time about everything, and their voting base seems to respect them for it

this.


a million times this.

[John A Arkansawyer]

I agree that there has been a huge problem with the messaging.

I've got Alanis Morrisette on right now. Isn't that ironic?

[Howlinwolf]

https://nypost.com/2018/06/30/the-left- ... s-winning/

[John A Arkansawyer]

https://nypost.com/2018/06/30/the-left- ... s-winning/

I appreciate you posting that. It's got one lovely psilocybin mushroom of truth sprouting out of it: Trump is indeed winning. For the rest of it? I combed through that cow patty looking for a single grain of undigested corn and came up dry.

The guy is a rightist, writing for a Trump-aligned newspaper, so I'm doubtful he means me well with his advice. Trump is winning because he's got advantages, and because he won his election. That doesn't mean the strategy of the left is wrong. It means we're up against something big and powerful. That doesn't mean we can't win, or won't win.

I'm way more optimistic about the relative quality of non-catastrophic political change than I would be with another president. I wouldn't have picked this path to winning. Too many people will suffer even with the best of luck, and those catastrophic possibilities are a lot likelier right now than in a very long time. But you fight a war you didn't choose with the opposition you have. So much as I'd rather it were otherwise, I expect we'll see what them racket boys can do.

[beantownbubba]

Hysteria or clear-eyed analysis? You decide:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fint ... s.facebook

[beantownbubba]

OTOH:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... nes&wpmm=1

[Cole Younger]

Ok. Bubba I apologize for taking so long to get back to you on this. And thank you for the welcome back. Although I'm not sure how back I am, in this thread I mean, but we'll see how it goes.

I will take these one at a time and just answer them as I see them because on some of these (all?) I just can't say for sure.

"How does one deal with a significant portion of the population who, 3, 10, 20 years ago would have freaked out over Russian meddling in the election and would have recognized it for the attack on the country by a foreign and oppositional power but now don't care because Tump?"

Most of the people I know who voted for Trump, and I know a few as you might imagine, aren't reacting to this in a way that might make more sense to you for one reason, the meddling by Russia gets drowned out by the collusion story and they don't buy the collusion story. That's really it. If you were to ask them if they thought Russia meddled in the election they might surprise you with their answer. But the collusion stuff? Forget it. And that is what has been front and center and getting the most attention of the two parts of the story by far. Why don't they believe the collusion story? Mostly because they don't believe anything CNN or the alphabet news media comes forward with. Now a person could find that hard to understand and might be tempted to chalk it up to one or several of the old standbys when it comes to conservatives (racist,mean, stupid etc) but none of those news outlets have done themselves any favors at least since the Obama campaign in 2008. Bringing up FOX and comparing them is a waste of time too because A). "FOX Lies!" Has been screamed to the point that it doesn't mean anything other than its a talking point to these folks and B) Contrary to popular belief, not all conservatives watch FOX. Probably fewer now than at any point in the last ten years at least. This is not so much about a love of Trump as it is they just don't believe anything those News outlets tell them and they certainly don't believe anything the Democrats say. I think that's how we got there in the Russia issue. It also doesn't help that when Mitt Romney cited Russia as a national security threat in the 2012 debates, he was laughed at by Barak Obama while Obama supporters yucked it up along with those hackish political commedians, Colbert and that lot, only to turn around a few years later and tell them the guy they voted for only won because he colluded with the Russians. I'm not arguing their case except to explain where this comes from and to say that I can at least somewhat see why they feel that way. "Oh now Russia is a threat because you guys lost the election and Trump cheated 'cause the Democrat lap dogs in the media say so? Mmm K. Whatever."


"Or that same group of people thinking it's ok as a strategy and policy to simply declare N. Korea not a threat because Trump?"

Here again, I know a lot of people who voted for Trump. From what I hear from them, this isn't what they think. They just don't think it was bad for Trump to meet with the North Koreans about nuclear disarmament. As far as thinking the North Koreans are no longer a threat and will do just what they say they will do and won't do, I don't know anybody who thinks that. But they didn't get how it was bad for Trump to try for it and absolutely did not get the left acting disappointed or even angry about it. I've heard from more than one person, "They act like they would rather have a nuclear war with North Korea than have something Trump did turn out good". I have to admit, it did sort of come off like that.

"And in my personal opinion worst of all, the same people who claim all kinds of religious motivations and family values and consider themselves simply to be good people, still support Trump even though he is separating kids from parents at the border..."

This one is a little bit like the first one. Number one, they don't believe this exactly what's happening. At least not in a "babies in cages"sort of way. They don't believe these children are being locked in cells and not allowed to reunite with their families. Again, they don't believe anything the alphabet media says and that is, at least in part, the media's own fault for years of Democrat cheerleading. And they sure don't believe anything the Democrats say. Also, they are never going to be for open borders and sanctuary cities. Ever. It's a lot easier to just chalk that up to racism in a blanket sort of way. And for some of them that's all that drives it. But for a lot more of them it's this, they don't believe for one second that the Democrats care about these people who are entering illegally at our southern border. They believe the Democrats see these folks as useful means to an end. They think the Democrats believe that these folks will eventually provide them with a permanent voting majority and it is that and nothing more.

How do you talk to these people? Why should you? I'm not going to tell you that you should but I will tell you that, at least for the Trump supporters that I know, their views aren't quite what are being reported and they aren't driven by stupidity or evil etc. Not to say that none of them are anywhere. I'm just telling you about the ones that I know personally.

How do you communicate with people who simply don't care that the preside t lies to them directly and who simply reverse course when he does literally just like Orwell portrays in 1984? This isn't new is it? Obama lied directly to people. So did Bush. So did Clinton. And on and on and on. I'm not saying that makes it any better. Simply that it isn't new.

Is there any hope in finding a spark of commonality with those people? I think so. Some of them anyway.

I don't know if that helps any but those are the answers as I see them and know them from talking to people that I know.

[Zip City]

So if they don't trust the news, what do they trust?

"Media cheerleading Obama" isn't a good excuse for being willfully ignorant

[Cole Younger]

So if they don't trust the news, what do they trust?

"Media cheerleading Obama" isn't a good excuse for being willfully ignorant

That's the problem. When the people who were supposed to be there to keep you informed and watch the powerful have joined up with some of them, you don't know who to trust. So people believe what they want to believe in the end on the left and the right. Because while not everything the news media says is a lie, enough of it is and enough is colored by their own bias that taking in too much of it is or taking it all at face value is nothing if not willful ignorance.