The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

I think that if Freud were alive today he'd be stroking his beard (not a freudian reference you perverts) and asking, "What do Republicans want?" I'm certainly scratching my head. Leaving aside the whole debt ceiling debacle which at bottom is basically a deep dive into the irrational in the absence of a clue, the party of business, especially big business has taken to eating its own. Which is fine with me, I don't care one way or the other. But internally, it makes no sense. What do they want? Who do they think they represent? Towards what end? The latest example was yesterday's House hearing on environmental, social and corporate governance conscious investment ("ESG") which is spearheaded by some (but by no means all) of the biggest investment companies in the world. I knew Republicans of the politician variety don't like it, but I just figured it was just culture war stuff. You know: "Did somebody say environment? I'm against it!!" But here we have 2 state attorneys general allegedly laying out their theory of why ESG investing is bad and should be prohibited (and why they have or are trying to limit their own state's pension investments in ESG friendly companies). According to Andrew Ross Sorkin, a NYT business reporter/columnist, this is what they had to say:

"From the get-go, the hearing of the House Oversight and Accountability Committee was contentious, as Republican and Democratic lawmakers sparred with witnesses, and each other.

Republicans called E.S.G. “​​an undemocratic tax” on Americans, designed to force an embrace of climate-focused policies that would raise costs for many. The hearing’s witnesses included the attorneys general of Alabama and Utah, who oppose letting their states’ retirement funds go into E.S.G.-guided investments.

To Sean Reyes, Utah’s attorney general, E.S.G. was “an open conspiracy to bypass Congress and instead impose costly changes on American consumers,” driven by unelected financial institutions like BlackRock that have pushed to include climate concerns in many investment decisions.

His Alabama counterpart, Steve Marshall, argued that focusing on E.S.G. led to higher energy prices because it discourages the use of cheaper fossil fuels, risking harm to key industries like farming."

Are you fucking kidding me???!! Private companies making private investment decisions? Private companies not seeking Congress's permission on how to invest????!! Isn't that, ummm, you know, capitalism?? What exactly is their beef? Who is forcing them to do anything? Can't they just give their investment money to other advisors who don't follow an ESG investment strategy? Can't their state investments be made directly in companies that don't follow ESG principles? How does the free market operating the way it's supposed to raise prices or impose hidden taxes? What exactly is the problem here? And how the fuck is it a tax on anybody?? Indeed if one wanted to follow their logic, investing in fossil fuel companies is a hidden tax on Americans because those companies pollute our land, air and water and shorten our life expectancies. I would never expect them to accept that logic but why is it different than what they're complaining about? I hate, hate, HATE to keep getting to the same place, but it's unavoidable: A lot of these folks just ain't very smart and have no business directing government policies, nor should they be quoted/presented as authoritative commentators by the mainstream media.

Edited once to add some clarifying detail
Last edited by beantownbubba on Thu May 11, 2023 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

OK, so we've had a day or so to digest the CNN/Trump fiasco and millions of electrons have been sacrificed in the name of "analysis." The general conclusion by most "correct thinking people" (i.e. those who I generally agree with)* is that the program was indeed a fiasco and an embarrassment to CNN. But what's the bottom line? What have we learned? What does it mean for American politics/government in general and for the 2024 presidential election specifically?

To me it's not a matter of what the moderator might have done differently or what better questions she might have asked or what mechansim might be employed to fact check/challenge Trump in real time or how a better more representative crowd might have been assembled. Nope, in the end it comes down to the same damn two things: The mainstream media still does not have a clue about how to cover Trump, to the detriment of our system of government and our ability to make informed choices; and Trump fans are Trump fans come hell or high water and they. just. don't. care. about anything other than owning the libs. Why they find standing on the deck of a sinking ship to be a laughing matter is beyond me, but that's obviously what they've chosen to do and THAT is the reality the rest of us must figure out how to deal with. Do i have the answer? In fact is there ONE answer? The answer to both is most definitely NO but I do know that we (that is all of us) can't treat Trump as just another candidate, we can't assume he's going away and we have to either figure out how to reach something like 30+ percent of the electorate or risk a perpetual very fine margin from which to cobble together winning coalitions. This situation cannot continue indefinitely.

*I did not and would not even think of watching but I'm talking about the reaction to the event not the event itself.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 4:54 pm
OK, so we've had a day or so to digest the CNN/Trump fiasco and millions of electrons have been sacrificed in the name of "analysis." The general conclusion by most "correct thinking people" (i.e. those who I generally agree with)* is that the program was indeed a fiasco and an embarrassment to CNN. But what's the bottom line? What have we learned? What does it mean for American politics/government in general and for the 2024 presidential election specifically?

To me it's not a matter of what the moderator might have done differently or what better questions she might have asked or what mechansim might be employed to fact check/challenge Trump in real time or how a better more representative crowd might have been assembled. Nope, in the end it comes down to the same damn two things: The mainstream media still does not have a clue about how to cover Trump, to the detriment of our system of government and our ability to make informed choices; and Trump fans are Trump fans come hell or high water and they. just. don't. care. about anything other than owning the libs. Why they find standing on the deck of a sinking ship to be a laughing matter is beyond me, but that's obviously what they've chosen to do and THAT is the reality the rest of us must figure out how to deal with. Do i have the answer? In fact is there ONE answer? The answer to both is most definitely NO but I do know that we (that is all of us) can't treat Trump as just another candidate, we can't assume he's going away and we have to either figure out how to reach something like 30+ percent of the electorate or risk a perpetual very fine margin from which to cobble together winning coalitions. This situation cannot continue indefinitely.

*I did not and would not even think of watching but I'm talking about the reaction to the event not the event itself.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Clams »

Dont forget that CNN is a for-profit business that makes more money with better ratings. Their ratings were through the roof during the four years Trump was in office and there was a huge drop off after he left office. I bet the Trump fiasco the other night generated better ratings than any night in the past year. Trump = ratings = profits. I expect to see more of him over the next 18 months than less.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

CNN is also now run by people who want to push the network center-right
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Clams »

CNN’s Trump Town Hall Brings Big Ratings Boost For Network, Which Doubles Fox and MSNBC
https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnns-trum ... and-msnbc/
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Clams wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 7:25 am
Dont forget that CNN is a for-profit business that makes more money with better ratings. Their ratings were through the roof during the four years Trump was in office and there was a huge drop off after he left office. I bet the Trump fiasco the other night generated better ratings than any night in the past year. Trump = ratings = profits. I expect to see more of him over the next 18 months than less.
Basically the same numbers, different conclusion, from the WaPo:

"At a time when CNN has been struggling to turn around viewership decline, the telecast proved to be a ratings disappointment, with Nielsen reporting just 3.1 million viewers overall. That was a big boost over CNN’s typical 8 p.m. telecast, but a smaller audience than CNN’s town hall with President Biden last summer (3.7 million) and six previous Trump town halls carried by Fox News — calling into question both CNN and Trump’s drawing power."

You're certainly right that it's all about the ratings and the dollars ratings bring, but I guess this wasn't a slam dunk win for CNN.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Zip City wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 8:01 am
CNN is also now run by people who want to push the network center-right
True. I guess the question is whether putting Trump on in that format, i.e. allowing Trump basically free reign, is in fact a center-right or a radical move.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 9:53 am
Zip City wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 8:01 am
CNN is also now run by people who want to push the network center-right
True. I guess the question is whether putting Trump on in that format, i.e. allowing Trump basically free reign, is in fact a center-right or a radical move.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Clams »

I have no issue with CNN doing the Trump town hall. He's going to be the republican candidate and therefore he needs to be covered. Besides I have a feeling that many more people were horrified than thrilled by his performance. Him running on the R ticket, while horrifying to watch, will better serve the D's in the end.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Clams wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 12:25 pm
I have no issue with CNN doing the Trump town hall. He's going to be the republican candidate and therefore he needs to be covered.
I think some people took issue w/ CNN giving Trump any kind of airtime. I agree with you that that's not really a defensible position. I think more people disagreed with CNN's formatting decisions such as broadcasting it live, not having any mechanisms in place to better challenge and reign in Trump and allowing Trump to have a virtually hand picked "home team" audience. I think there's merit to most of that. Or put another way, yeah Trump is news and has to be covered, the question is how to cover him knowing that typical major party leader coverage does not create standard, acceptable journalism in his unique case and in fact is highly manipulatable by the subject. The media clearly got it wrong in 2016, never got it right in the 4 years of Trump's presidency and still hasn't figured it out.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

You can cover Trump without platforming Trump
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by dime in the gutter »

the more trump is talking on tv....the better.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

dime in the gutter wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 1:48 pm
the more trump is talking on tv....the better.
Well this is the 64 billion dollar question, isn't it? A lot of people (including me) thought that was the case in 2015 and '16, and boy were we wrong. "Some people" are saying that things have changed and giving Trump as much exposure as possible is now the best way to defeat him. I don't know, but I'm definitely feeling once burnt so I'm a bit shy of signing on to this theory. But I sure hope it's right.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by jr29 »

He said dozens of things that 60-80% of the population disagree with or disapprove of. Abortion, Russia, January 6, etc etc etc...
Come election time he'll still get at least 48% of the vote.

I'm willing to admit that I don't know how the fuck CNN and other media outlets should handle him. I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with every argument.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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48% of the 33% who actually vote in this country
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by jr29 »

Zip City wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 8:15 pm
48% of the 33% who actually vote in this country
And the number of those voters who watched that Town Hall is probably low single digits. As much of a splash as it made in the news, and among folks who watch the news, an overwhelming majority of the country can't be bothered. Maybe they are the ones who have it figured out.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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jr29 wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 7:59 pm
I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with every argument.
same here :lol:
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Zip City wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 8:15 pm
48% of the 33% who actually vote in this country
Image
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Interesting op-ed in today's NYT about the "debt limit crisis." The author, with whom i am not familiar, is obviously highly credentialed and he makes a coherent argument (how refreshing!). However, there's one part I just don't get which is that he conveniently ignores the major question raised by his argument. He argues that the president can't act unilaterally in this situation because "the power of the purse" belongs to Congress and he identifies the several different powers expressly granted to Congress in the Constitution which make up the power of the purse. But what he doesn't answer is what happens if Congress authorizes spending but then refuses to pay when the bill comes due, which is where we're at. So at the end of the day, there are a lot of words but they don't say much. There's a serious problem, a hole in the system totally unanticipated by the Constitution and its drafters. So now what happens? Professor McConnell doesn't say.

Unfortunately he also brings up the old "the President has to negotiate with Congress" argument which as i have said before I think is absurd. But even accepting it as valid, the President IS negotiating with Congress; the House majority just doesn't like the bargain he's offering. I'm happy to give the author the benefit of the doubt based on his credentials but I'm sorry, a bad argument doesn't get any better just because it's made by a person with an impressive background.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/14/opin ... 029039208a
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

According to Robert Hubbell, this was Donald Trump's Mother's Day greeting as posted on his social network:

"Happy Mother’s Day to ALL, in particular the Mothers, Wives and Lovers of the Radical Left Fascists, Marxists, and Communists who are doing everything within their power to destroy and obliterate our once great Country. Please make these complete Lunatics and Maniacs Kinder, Gentler, Softer and, most importantly, Smarter, so that we can, quickly, MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!'"

I'm just gonna leave that right here.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

beantownbubba wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 10:16 am
But what he doesn't answer is what happens if Congress authorizes spending but then refuses to pay when the bill comes due, which is where we're at.
Conveniently enough, Robert Hockett addresses this very question in a column in Forbes. I must warn you that the writing is very dry and dense but it's an excellent summary of the arguments in favor of the debt limit being unconstitutional, including some stuff i hadn't seen before.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rhockett/2 ... dium=email
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

beantownbubba wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 10:47 am
According to Robert Hubbell, this was Donald Trump's Mother's Day greeting as posted on his social network:

"Happy Mother’s Day to ALL, in particular the Mothers, Wives and Lovers of the Radical Left Fascists, Marxists, and Communists who are doing everything within their power to destroy and obliterate our once great Country. Please make these complete Lunatics and Maniacs Kinder, Gentler, Softer and, most importantly, Smarter, so that we can, quickly, MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!'"

I'm just gonna leave that right here.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Per Prof. Heather Cox Richardson:

"Senator Josh Hawley (R-MO) has indicated he’s on board with the idea of Biden invoking the Fourteenth Amendment. “I think if I were president, I would be tempted” to use the Fourteenth Amendment, Hawley said. “Because I would just be like, ‘Listen, I’m not gonna let us default. So end of story. Y’all will do whatever you want to do.’ But I’m not necessarily giving him that advice. It’s against my interest.”

Saying the quiet part out loud is a standard MAGA trait I guess, but publicly admitting that you're choosing your personal interest over that of the people you represent or your country? Seems pretty outrageous to me, but what do I know?
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Strange day. I just posted about how I had no real opinion about an 8 episode streaming series I watched from beginning to end. And while I'm always leery of absolute statements, until this morning I would have said that there is [virtually] never a good enough reason to interrupt a speaker from saying their piece. But then this morning I saw a brief video clip of the the commencement at New College (FL), a main target of Ron DeSantis's ire and ego. The graduates pretty much shouted down the speaker who wasn't named in the clip but was described as an "arch conservative" or words to that effect.

These kids got screwed, absolutely crushed, by state power. They were simply pawns in a much bigger game, sacrificed at the altar of PR and politics by a guy who simply didn't care about them or their education, never mind the soft stuff like their "college experience." It was absolutely absurd but totally in character for the trustees, the speaker and whoever else (did somebody say the governor?) to pretend like nothing happened, that all was well and that this was a typical graduation ceremony.

I think that in this rather exceptional case the student's actions were a completely valid protest, made without violence and taking advantage of the very limited tools available to them while sending the message that no, this is not ok.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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So, if you're watching the calendar, the current consensus seems to be, no, really, June 1 really IS the blow it all up day. That's pretty soon. And there's a 3 day weekend between now and then (I don't think that's an issue on the White House side but I can see any number of Congresspeople disappearing for at least 3 days). It may not be 11:59:59 yet but it's at least 11:45.

Note that the clawback of unused pandemic related funds seems to be the one point that the sides have sort of agreed upon (see above).
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Forget "Brandon." The Freedom Caucus, continuing to say the quiet part out loud now expressly refers to the President of the United States of America as "our hostage." See Heather Cox Richardson:

" “My conservative colleagues for the most part support Limit, Save, Grow, and they don’t feel like we should negotiate with our hostage,” said right-wing Representative Matt Gaetz (R-FL)."

More fun facts from Professor Richardson:

"When Ronald Reagan called for tax cuts in 1980, he argued that tax cuts would concentrate money in private hands, enabling investors flush with cash to build the economy. That growth would keep tax revenues stable even with the lower rates. That was the argument, but it never came to pass. In fact, a 2022 study by political economists David Hope and Julian Limberg shows that “tax cuts for the rich…do not have any significant effect on economic growth or unemployment,” but they do “lead to higher income inequality in both the short- and medium-term.”

"Indeed, Estelle Sommeiller and Mark Price of the Economic Policy Institute, an independent, nonprofit think tank, noted in 2018 that 1% of all families in the U.S. take home 21% of all the income in the U.S., making 26.3 times more than the bottom 99%, whose average income is slightly more than $50,000 a year. On average in the U.S., someone would need an annual income of slightly more than $420,000 to be a member of that top 1%. In 2020, annual wages for the top 1% grew by 7.3% while those in the bottom 90% grew just 1.7%.

"A 2020 study by Carter C. Price and Kathryn A. Edwards of the RAND Corporation showed that the changing economic distribution systems of the past forty years have moved a staggering $50 trillion upward, out of the hands of the bottom 90% of Americans. (The national debt is currently about $31.5 trillion.)"

For my part, I cannot believe that we're still talking about supply side economics as if it's a real thing and not a theory that has actually been applied in practice and has failed. Every. Single. Time. My younger self, who believed that rational discourse eventually prevails, is stunned. My current self is disgusted and feeling pretty hopeless.

"Our hostage."
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Do you ever get tired of singin' songs
Like all your pain is just another fuckin' sing along?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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I don't know anything about the validity of the charges against TX AG Ken Paxton nor do I know what the realistic chance of impeachment is. But there is more than a little schadenfreude involved in watching him being swamped with allegations, lawsuits and threats to his political survival.

All you need to know about the Supreme Court's new Clean Water Act decision is that Alito couldn't even convince Brett Kavanaugh to go along with his latest trampling of the law.

I guess we have to take Ron DeSantis seriously for at least a minute. Today's NYT features THREE op-eds about him. Ridiculous.

The WaPo features an op-ed from Henry Kissinger's son celebrating Henry's longevity (he's 100). Tell that to the thousands of Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians and American soldiers who didn't see 10 or 20 or 30 thanks to Henry. I cannot fathom why the Post saw fit to publish this silliness.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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My god I can't imagine the kind of ghoul who celebrates Kissinger remaining on this mortal coil.

One site I read regularly does a feature called "Henry Kissinger is Right There" any time a beloved person passes away.

https://open.substack.com/pub/discourse ... paign=post
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