The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

[lotusamerica]

Are those people tearing down statues alt-left?

I don't think so, I think they were normal citizens.

[lotusamerica]

As to the many posts on Trump v other rs. My take:

W - seemed like a decent person in his personal life. Was ahead of the entire Republican party on what religious freedom really means, particularly when it comes to Muslims, and his lead on that has only increased in the years since. Led an administration that lied in order to get public support for an already-planned war, tried to get people spy on each other and turn each other in, ramped up Total Information Awareness and PRISM, was responsible for a lot of people dying.

Romney - was responsible for the moving the country forward toward Obamacare, seemed like a mild mannered person, tried but couldn't be convincing as a hard right representative, looked, talked, acted and probably smelled like a plutocrat.

McCain - holy fuck picked Sarah Palin for VP. Was impossible to redeem any semblance of credibility after that.

Trump - bigoted, narcissistic asshole. Probably of all of the above, could have become the greatest president on his strengths and lack of being formally tied down by decades of party allegiance - instead threw it all away for hate, bigotry, demagoguery, impulsiveness.

[lotusamerica]

Are those people tearing down statues alt-left?

I don't think so, I think they were normal citizens.

Watched the video again - a couple of them may have been antifa, but most just looked like regular citizens.

[Cole Younger]

Are those people tearing down statues alt-left?

I don't think so, I think they were normal citizens.

Watched the video again - a couple of them may have been antifa, but most just looked like regular citizens.

How can you tell? And who decides who the regular citizens are?

[Iowan]

Yeah. I'm seeing a pile of Republicans loudly condemn this.

I'm really starting to think that they're going to turn on Trump in the near future. He's a complete fucking train wreck and hes going to get hammered in 2020, and so will they in the 2018 midterm if they don't do something to curry favor.

If they oust Trump, they can make points with the left and moderates for ridding the country of his insanity, and the far right gets a President that's closer to what most of them want.

Won't matter. If Trump is thrown overboard, and I am slowly beginning to think that is more than a Democrat pipedream, Pence will be the object of the very same ire. I would bet my next paycheck on this. Trump has poked the bear for sure, but that doesn't even matter that much. For the most part, the only reason Trump is as hated as he is, is because he is the Republican in the white House. That's it.

W was the worst person who had ever lived when he was president. People can say that it wasn't the same all the want and I'm sure they actually believe that. But as someone who is not a liberal, but didn't vote for W and didn't like him, but still didn't get the white hot rage directed at him by the left, I remember it well and I can tell you that it really wasn't much different. He was accused of blowing up the levies in New Orleans and master minding 9/11.

I remember in 2012 being gob smacked but also amused at the visceral reaction from the left to Mit Romney. Mit Freaking Romney. One of the most boring, bland, politicians I can think of and from what I know, a generally decent person by political standards, and he was reviled by the left. He made some clumsy comment about "binders of women" and that got made into a red hot issue. I remember thinking it was hilarious. It was like he had been caught with a dead girl or a live boy.

The fury got turned up to 10 for Mit Romney.

It doesn't matter who it is. John McCain, who votes with the Democrats as much as he does the republicans, was evil too.

It doesn't matter who the Republican is. Whenever they are in office or trying to get there, they are the worst person who has ever lived and all their voters are racists and Nazis. I am sure I will be challenged on this but it is simply the truth.

Trump being pushed out will settle things down for about a half a day. Then it will be time to do the same thing to Mike Pence.

I agree with the amount of vitriol towards W, but the heat on McCain and Romney were a fraction of what's against Trump.

I can see why coming from a more conservative place it looks like the left has cried wolf a ton, but I just don't remember McCain and Romney being as hated as Trump. Which is because Trump is simply an awful person. People disagreed with McCain and Romney, but the majority of the left would agree they seemed like decent humans.

You're right about Pence, and frankly, I find him more politically repugnant than Trump. He won't be hated on the level of Trump, but the left won't be real friendly to him. Pence seems like a much better human, but his ideology scares the fuck out of me. Trump is a monster with no set ideology other than what's convenient for him.

While the left will be strongly anti-Pence, I think the Republicans as a whole will fare better. The hate for Trump transcends left/right ideology.

[cortez the killer]

For the most part, the only reason Trump is as hated as he is, is because he is the Republican in the white House. That's it.

That could not be further from the truth. For someone who has railed against partisan politics, this is a very presumptuous partisan conclusion to draw. Trump is as hated as he is because he is a hateful, divisive, narcissistic, fear-mongering asshole. Party affiliation does not begin to explain the level of disdain people have for him.

[Cole Younger]

For the most part, the only reason Trump is as hated as he is, is because he is the Republican in the white House. That's it.

That could not be further from the truth. For someone who has railed against partisan politics, this is a very presumptuous partisan conclusion to draw. Trump is as hated as he is because he is a hateful, divisive, narcissistic, fear-mongering asshole. Party affiliation does not begin to explain the level of disdain people have for him.

As I said in my original post on the subject, I am sure you truly believe that. Since I am not speaking on Trump's or the republicans' behalf your accusation of partisanship doesnt even hit the target. As for presumptuous, not accurate.

[Cole Younger]

Pretty good post, Iowan.

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

For the most part, the only reason Trump is as hated as he is, is because he is the Republican in the white House. That's it.

You are smarter than me. You are far more balanced and rational. You are more eloquent.

That said, I can't disagree more with that. I am a bit stunned to hear that fron you

[Iowan]

Pretty good post, Iowan.

I really think the Trump hate is past partisan games. He's something else. I know staunch Republicans that are fed up. I've never seen this much distaste for a politician from his own party. This is just anecdotal, but I think I see evidence of it in the world at large.

[Cole Younger]

For the most part, the only reason Trump is as hated as he is, is because he is the Republican in the white House. That's it.

You are smarter than me. You are far more balanced and rational. You are more eloquent.

That said, I can't disagree more with that. I am a bit stunned to hear that fron you

Well you flatter me but you short change yourself there.

I realize there are degrees. I'm simply saying the far left is going to hate whoever occupies the white House if they are a Republican. Iowan pointed out that McCain and Romney weren't hated anywhere close to what Trump is getting. For guys like you and him that is true. But from what was being said at the time, you would never have known they were both moderates.

Cortez jumped the gun as he tends to do. The far right does the exact same thing. But I'm talking g about the far left because a Republican is in office and they are the ones Making the noise right now.

[Cole Younger]

Pretty good post, Iowan.

I really think the Trump hate is past partisan games. He's something else. I know staunch Republicans that are fed up. I've never seen this much distaste for a politician from his own party. This is just anecdotal, but I think I see evidence of it in the world at large.

As I said, only a week ago I thought Trump being thrown overboard was a Democrat pipe dream. I no longer think that.

[lotusamerica]

Watched the video again - a couple of them may have been antifa, but most just looked like regular citizens.

How can you tell? And who decides who the regular citizens are?

Well, it's not scientific, but when some people are wearing masks or bandanas over their faces or antifa-style protest clothes, and other people look like they just walked over from a coffee shop across the street, I deduce. Probably not perfectly, but I'm pretty sure above random chance.

In Charlottesville, the vast majority of so-called counter-protesters were just local people who don't want the supremacists storming into town, marching around with torches and various fascist/nazi/white supremacists symbols, screaming hateful obscenities, threatening black people by surrounding their church and forcing them to call police for escorts out, and so on, protesting a local issue around removing a statue that is really not their concern. But since the rally was known ahead of time, antifa protesters came in from elsewhere to challenge, taunt and sometimes attack or counter-attack the supremacists. There weren't so many of them compared to the rally attendees, but they were visible and as seen on video, fighting. In a limited way, Trump is right that there was some violence from "both sides" of the issue, I think that's an indisputable fact. But the supremacists came to terrorize, and the majority of people counter-protesting were just regular local citizens who don't want to keep having their town taken over and terrorized by the supremacists, including the lady who was killed in the car attack, a young paralegal who believes in civil liberties and standing up against attacks on minorities. The supremacists had come to town three months ago, and will be back to do it again soon, and people who live there refuse to back down or be intimidated, and will continue to stand up against the supremacists (which is what they had been doing just before the guy ran over them, blocking the access of the supremacists from a local public housing project that of course houses minority residents where the supremacists went to intimidate and threaten them).

Now that doesn't mean that local citizens, in Charlottesville or Durham, might not be liberals or progressives and might not be local activists, and maybe even a few a part of the resistance movement (referring to the resistance to the supremacists, not to confuse with the "Resistance" movement related to Trump, though some are probably supportive of that as well).

And back to Trump, I abhor him, and think his handling of this situation has been horrendous, and honestly believe that he is okay with white supremacists because they support his power and because a part of him agrees with them. And I think he is very wrong to try to make this into a "both sides are wrong" issue. But as I said, in a more limited way, he spoke a truth that there was violence on both sides. One motivated by hate and oppression, and the other motivated mostly by intolerance of intolerance, but also not entirely contained to this issue, as some on the far left see the media and police as complicit in the ongoing oppression of minorities and upholding of white power. The root anti-fascist movement in Europe decades ago advocated direct violence against Nazis and fascists on the streets, and this movement echoes some of that. But the people on the video in Durham didn't appear to be part of this movement, except perhaps for a few.

[cortez the killer]

For the most part, the only reason Trump is as hated as he is, is because he is the Republican in the white House. That's it.

You are smarter than me. You are far more balanced and rational. You are more eloquent.

That said, I can't disagree more with that. I am a bit stunned to hear that fron you

Well you flatter me but you short change yourself there.

I realize there are degrees. I'm simply saying the far left is going to hate whoever occupies the white House if they are a Republican. Iowan pointed out that McCain and Romney weren't hated anywhere close to what Trump is getting. For guys like you and him that is true. But from what was being said at the time, you would never have known they were both moderates.

Cortez jumped the gun as he tends to do. The far right does the exact same thing. But I'm talking g about the far left because a Republican is in office and they are the ones Making the noise right now.

Your statement that I quoted makes no mention of the "far left". It is a general, blanket statement. The hatred of Donald Trump runs much deeper than the "far left" which is where I take issue with your statement. And while we are on the topic of extremes, as far as I am concerned, the far left & far right can both go fuck themselves.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Are those people tearing down statues alt-left?

I don't know who they are, but I'll take them for my side--more near left than far left, but I can see the far left from my front porch--any day.

People have tried very hard to do the right thing about moving these statues: Gone the democratic route, gotten the officials involved to agree to move them, find a place where they can still be historical artifacts but denied their place overseeing the populace. Then an armed mob shows up when they're supposed to be moved, and that leads to violence.

I'd rather save art than destroy it, so I'm in favor of moving the statues if feasible, but if it means people are going to get killed, then instead just do to those statues what they did to the statues in Eastern Europe and be done with it without violence. Just show up in your own good time and smash the fucker up and be done with it.

There's a hard line to walk when there are violent advocates of genocide roaming the streets looking for ways to hurt people. You can't just back off, because they (and most observers) will understand that as weakness. You can't just kick their asses, because you can't guarantee winning and because you can't control public opinion and because even when people intend violence you have to wait for the first blow before you can hit back. What you try to do is use enough force to get across the message that you aren't going to roll over for them, but not so much as to prod them into escalation or to lock yourself into a spiral of escalation. I was pretty pleased at how the left forces managed that this time around. Guys with clubs and shields and body armor and a few semi-automatic weapons showed up, and the response to that armed mob, while forceful, never rose near the level of violence the right had established even before they killed that woman.

[Markalanbishop]

Roy Moore just said, "I came here to fuck goats and chew gum, and I'm all out of gum."

[Swamp]

the far left & far right can both go fuck themselves.

YES! & "like" x2

[John A Arkansawyer]

the far left & far right can both go fuck themselves.

YES! & "like" x2

I don't take offense at that, but I do take it personally.

A group of far-rightists--Nazis and such--organize a meet-up in a town. They show up in armor, with clubs and shields, some armed with semi-automatics. The night before their meet-up, they go on a spontaneous torchlight parade chanting Nazi slogans--"Blood and soil" and "Jews will not replace us"--to hunt down counter-protesters. They surround a group of them and there's scuffling. Is that a both sides can go fuck themselves situation? Or is there maybe some right and some wrong there?

If you look through the photos from the Friday night thing, you'll see the guy who killed the woman on Saturday. He's got a club and a shield. The shield and its logo is apparently like biker colors, a thing you have to earn, a mark of being on the inside. And the next day, after he and his buddies show up armed and armored again, he killed a woman.

This is not a "shame on both sides" situation. The situation was beyond the control of law enforcement because the far-rightists designed it that way. They brought overwhelming force and used the second amendment to trump the first.

So what do you want those who oppose these lousy fuckers to do? Backing down from an armed mob is not going to improve their behavior.

[Iowan]

The extreme left isn't good. They certainly aren't the current threat to America that the extreme right is, however. It's like the USSR in WWII.

[lotusamerica]

The extreme left isn't good. They certainly aren't the current threat to America that the extreme right is, however. It's like the USSR in WWII.

Interesting, USSR did more to turn back Nazism than anyone, including us. But thendidnt go on to support democratic principles or freedom within their own culture, so they were bad but still served the force of good along the way. Is that about what you're saying?

As to the far left, it isn't good because of tactics used? Or because it identifies police as sometime the problem? Or?

It seems to me that the root issue that motivates the far left is neoliberalism and the root cause is increasing opportunities for equality in the face of a system rigged for the privileged and the powerful. Other than sometimes being disruptive, the main issues that it struggles with are drawing lines related to identity politics and freedom of thought/speech around so-called political correctness. The issue of aggression in standing up for the rights of the dispossessed is a more challenging isssue to think through.

My take overall would be that the far left has issues, but I wouldn't say that makes it bad.

[John A Arkansawyer]

The extreme left isn't good. They certainly aren't the current threat to America that the extreme right is, however. It's like the USSR in WWII.

The USSR did a lot wrong in trying to do good and failing. The Nazis did a lot wrong in trying to do evil and succeeding. I'm going to go with trying to do good over trying to do evil and I, as a froggish man, have just about this much hope of prevailing:

[Iowan]

The extreme left isn't good. They certainly aren't the current threat to America that the extreme right is, however. It's like the USSR in WWII.

Interesting, USSR did more to turn back Nazism than anyone, including us. But thendidnt go on to support democratic principles or freedom within their own culture, so they were bad but still served the force of good along the way. Is that about what you're saying?

As to the far left, it isn't good because of tactics used? Or because it identifies police as sometime the problem? Or?

It seems to me that the root issue that motivates the far left is neoliberalism and the root cause is increasing opportunities for equality in the face of a system rigged for the privileged and the powerful. Other than sometimes being disruptive, the main issues that it struggles with are drawing lines related to identity politics and freedom of thought/speech around so-called political correctness. The issue of aggression in standing up for the rights of the dispossessed is a more challenging isssue to think through.

My take overall would be that the far left has issues, but I wouldn't say that makes it bad.

This isn't the far left. This is a very mainstream view. There are extreme left wingers who have assaulted Trump supporters at rallies. They guy who shot all those cops in Dallas probably ID'd himself as a left wing political extremist.

I consider myself left of center, but I also think extremists, of any kind, are inherently dangerous.

My comparison to the USSR is to make this point: the far left is a convenient ally. The far right is a bigger threat, because they have the backing of the POTUS. Obama, for example, never embraced what I call the far left the way Trump embraces the far right. Right now, the far left, as well as a lot of folks on the right, agree that Trump is out of control and that neo-Nazis and the KKK are evil. However, once those threats are again neutered, I don't think the far left agenda, and yes, it's tactics, are good causes to champion.

[Iowan]

The extreme left isn't good. They certainly aren't the current threat to America that the extreme right is, however. It's like the USSR in WWII.

The USSR did a lot wrong in trying to do good and failing. The Nazis did a lot wrong in trying to do evil and succeeding. I'm going to go with trying to do good over trying to do evil and I, as a froggish man, have just about this much hope of prevailing:

[beantownbubba]

What or who is the alt-left?

[Zip City]

People don't hate Trump because he's a republican. That implies that if he were saying and doing all the same things he is now, but had won as a democrat instead of a republican, that I would be fine with it and/or supportive. I find that insulting to the nth degree

[Iowan]

What or who is the alt-left?

I don't know who the "alt left" is. I don't know that it exists. ANTIFA is pretty extreme left. They're also extremely loosely organized.

The extremists on the left are far less organized than those on the right. They also don't have the political support that extreme right wingers have. This is why they aren't much of a threat.

"Alt left" was just another version of Trump twisting the narrative, a la deeming all non-supportive media Fake News.

[John A Arkansawyer]

My point exactly. The USSR started out trying to do good and, after considerable internal turmoil and leadership changes, ended up with Stalin. It took about twenty years for the whole enterprise to go completely south. Compare that to the speed and directness with which Nazism got there.

Only one of those two social movements intended mass murder and genocide. That doesn't excuse the other one from ending up there. Far from it; most days, I think my side bears more blame for failing than the right does for succeeding. It does suggest that a better try at the goals of the left isn't destined to end with, as Randy Newman puts it, misery instead.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm open to better alternatives. But these are, as Randy Newman says earlier on that record, truly desperate times.

[dime in the gutter]

sturmabteilung

[Iowan]

My point exactly. The USSR started out trying to do good and, after considerable internal turmoil and leadership changes, ended up with Stalin. It took about twenty years for the whole enterprise to go completely south. Compare that to the speed and directness with which Nazism got there.

Only one of those two social movements intended mass murder and genocide. That doesn't excuse the other one from ending up there. Far from it; most days, I think my side bears more blame for failing than the right does for succeeding. It does suggest that a better try at the goals of the left isn't destined to end with, as Randy Newman puts it, misery instead.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm open to better alternatives. But these are, as Randy Newman says earlier on that record, truly desperate times.

Ok, I got ya.

I'm not sure that the founders of the USSR (well, Lenin specifically) were as good-hearted, but I think a lot of the people pushing for that change were.

[Smitty]

It's somewhat taboo to say out loud in civilized society, but historically I don't know of any meaningful change made solely by lawful, peaceful protest. I think that makes the "one side had a permit!" argument even more pathetic.

I'm not big on advocating violence against anyone for any reason, but I'd make an exception for those who share the political philosophy of Adolph fucking Hitler. As long as they're not threatening or being intimidating (which would be difficult to avoid as white nationalist rhetoric is inherently threatening and at least attempts to be intimidating) I don't support the state silencing them, although I'm one hundred percent in favor of your local black blocs* taking care of the job.

Punching nazis>advocating genocide

*I should say that I don't subscribe to anarchism and a lot of the language and beliefs of the "extreme left" seem to have more in common with what's considered right wing on the american political spectrum, but there's also quite a bit I do agree with. At any rate, I think "an enemy of an enemy is a friend" is appropriate in this instance.