The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

[Flea]

I'm personally tired of asking questions and scrutinizing rationales, particularly since it seems half of my fellow citizens think all is just peachy. If we're going down the shitter, I'm going with a smile on my face, a Terrapin in my left hand, and a bigass Bob Marley joint in my right. End Of The World Party, anyone?

I take it you've seen Miracle Mile.

Nope. I'm hoping more for the Zombie Apocalypse. Provided we get slow zombies rather than fast.

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

End Of The World Party

NO!!!! don't say that, I love Karl Wallinger

[Flea]

End Of The World Party

NO!!!! don't say that, I love Karl Wallinger

Ditto

[Cole Younger]

I should probably just let this die and I feel like I'm going to sound like a much bigger jackass than I'm intending but I feel compelled.

Iowan I'm curious as to how you know that. Did these folks you are referencing say that? Did they say they are politically tribalistic to the point that they will do whatever they think is in the interest of their side even if it is wholly antithetical to America? That seems awfully hard to imagine. Did they tell you they would be willing to turn on their own and serve as instruments of oppression in the interest of "their side" if it came down to it? If so that is about as close to being shocked as I've come in a long time. What branch of service are these people a part of? I'm guessing since you said it was 60% of the service members that you know it must cut across all or most branches. If so I find that even harder to imagine. People willing to die for their countrymen just aren't often willing to kill or harm them if it serves their political interests.

What did these people say that leads you to believe this? And how big of a sample size are we talking about here?

I'm very skeptical of their being enough people who feel that way that one person knows a lot of them.

I'm admittedly extrapolating from general statements. It comes off like they view people who don't agree with them as worth protecting. Conservative America is real America, and those fucking liberals should get out.

Keep in mind I'm looking at from the view that most people have gotten this way. My team is more important than anything.

I've just gotten really depressed and cynical about the level of tribalism these days and have no faith in any group of people to do anything other support their team. It's not intended as a specific shot at the military as much as a comment on everything

Dude I'm with you 100% on tribalism. We are eyeball to eyeball there. Do I occasionally slide into it/indulge in it too? Yeah. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. Not often but occasionally and it's usually when I just get kind of down like when I see something really, really outrageous in the news that I would think just about everybody would agree is wrong and see one side proudly standing in support of it.

I definitely see how the whole "real America" thing would be obnoxious if not down right infuriating. To sort of offer a bit of a different view on it, imagine you are conservative dude from rural America. You have your views but try to see both sides of things. You may often disagree with the liberal view point but you don't see those folks as your enemy or as being less American or not as good as you in any way. But every time you turn on the TV, get on the internet etc you see some Hollywood type, music industry figure, or some academic talking about people like you being stupid and only having the views that you have due to ignorance and a laundry list of other issues that end in ism.

This gets repeated over and over and eventually just becomes accepted as truth in pop culture as well as in academia. Every action produces an equal and opposite reaction. That's where the "real America" stuff gets its fuel. I don't know who fired the first shot and it doesn't matter. People need to just stop. I'm just explaining the other side of it.

Also, guys in the military talk slot of crap. It's just part of it. They say things like civilians are fat and lazy and nasty and they would have a hard time defending this or that bunch. It's just talk.

[Zip City]

The "liberal elites don't understand rural America " trope was trotted out a lot as a reason the Democrats failed this past election, but where was the rebuttal? Who stood up and said "middle America doesn't understand the liberal urbanites"? Why is this a one way road

[Cole Younger]

The "liberal elites don't understand rural America " trope was trotted out a lot as a reason the Democrats failed this past election, but where was the rebuttal? Who stood up and said "middle America doesn't understand the liberal urbanites"? Why is this a one way road

Good question. I guess your answer all depends on who you think fired the first shot in the culture war.

Another way of looking at it is, one bunch is unhappy with America and wants it to change and change a lot. The other doesnt feel that way. So to the non liberal elites it is the liberal elites doing all the pushing thus it makes no sense that people need to stand up to the non liberal elites.

[Zip City]

And that's where the problem of privilege comes in

[Cole Younger]

And that's where the problem of privilege comes in

That's another thing. This misguided notion that people need to apologize for something they had nothing to do with. Flip that coin over and its ugliness is exposed with no makeup.

It's now totally acceptable to criticize a person for being white. That's like criticize g someone because they are tall and demanding an apology. It's foolishness. They had no say in the matter.

[Zip City]

And that's where the problem of privilege comes in

That's another thing. This misguided notion that people need to apologize for something they had nothing to do with. Flip that coin over and its ugliness is exposed with no makeup.

It's now totally acceptable to criticize a person for being white. That's like criticize g someone because they are tall and demanding an apology. It's foolishness. They had no say in the matter.

It's criticizing people for being resistant to change because the need for change is t something that applies to them

[Cole Younger]

Yeah and change is needed in some areas for sure. But whole sale change of everything is not.

Convincing everyone that we need an infinite number of gender pronouns is going g to be a tough sell. And not seeing the need for it or believing gender is simply a social construct doesnt make a person immoral or stupid.

That's just one example of course.

Here's my take and this is at the heart of all my political views, liberals and conservatives need each other. This stupid idea that there needs to be a war and one bunch needs to eliminate the other is idiotic. And if achieved it will be the end of America.

Conservatives need liberals to help bring about change in areas where it is needed because we are just naturally slower to change. Liberals need conservatives to help temper their propensity to just wholesale change things and throw the baby out with the bathwater because they won't just slow down a bit. It's actually a symbiotic relationship.

The two philosophies have different strengths and weaknesses.

[Zip City]

Yeah and change is needed in some areas for sure. But whole sale change of everything is not.

Convincing everyone that we need an infinite number of gender pronouns is going g to be a tough sell. And not seeing the need for it or believing gender is simply a social construct doesnt make a person immoral or stupid.

Thank you for making my point

[Cole Younger]

Yeah and change is needed in some areas for sure. But whole sale change of everything is not.

Convincing everyone that we need an infinite number of gender pronouns is going g to be a tough sell. And not seeing the need for it or believing gender is simply a social construct doesnt make a person immoral or stupid.

Thank you for making my point

I know you like to think we are completely different but we aren't. There is some overlap.

[Zip City]

Yeah and change is needed in some areas for sure. But whole sale change of everything is not.

Convincing everyone that we need an infinite number of gender pronouns is going g to be a tough sell. And not seeing the need for it or believing gender is simply a social construct doesnt make a person immoral or stupid.

Thank you for making my point

I know you like to think we are completely different but we aren't. There is some overlap.

I don't think we are different. I'm just saying your comment illustrates my point

[Cole Younger]

We're making the same point, man.

Maybe that's what you meant.

[Zip City]

We're making the same point, man.

Maybe that's what you meant.

I wasn't attributing the "non-binary gender stuff is stupid" to you personally. I'm saying that that argument is a good example of privilege, as the people who complain loudest about it are the people least affected by it

[John A Arkansawyer]

We're making the same point, man.

Maybe that's what you meant.

I wasn't attributing the "non-binary gender stuff is stupid" to you personally. I'm saying that that argument is a good example of privilege, as the people who complain loudest about it are the people least affected by it

I teach non-binary gender stuff, based in queer theory, because it addresses a real human condition and I have no better ideas to work with it. I've also seen in the last few weeks, in my personal circles, people tearing each other's hearts out because a trans lady got pissed at a week-long event for having one workshop being held for biologically female lesbians only. That was stupid, and ugly too. I saw two women I know pretty well, defriend, both on Facebook and in real life, the woman who performed their wedding. It was ripping me up just to watch it at a distance. There's real value in the ideas until people start using them as weapons against each other. Then it just proves whether you have a dick or not is irrelevant to whether you are a dick.

And I'll say this about privilege theory: A lot of people who teach that professionally (I'm a volunteer) get paid big bucks by corporations to do it. I'm always suspicious of social ideas that put paychecks into people's pockets. I'm doubly suspicious about theories that explain social problems without any reference to money power. Sure, they talk about classism, but they mean whether you have an accent, or wear the wrong clothes, or present as having a working class background in some other way. It's never about who's got the money power and who doesn't. That kinda works for the boss and the rich and the powerful and it kinda keeps the rest of us down. It equalizes among the top, among the bottom, among the middle, but it keeps that hierarchy as rigid and difficult to climb as it can be made.

[Iowan]

The "liberal elites don't understand rural America " trope was trotted out a lot as a reason the Democrats failed this past election, but where was the rebuttal? Who stood up and said "middle America doesn't understand the liberal urbanites"? Why is this a one way road

Because liberal urbanites are a majority over middle America, and minorities are unimpeachable.

Do you even liberal, brah?

If this attitude is pervasive on the left, get ready for 4 more years of pussy grabbing.

[Zip City]

The "liberal elites don't understand rural America " trope was trotted out a lot as a reason the Democrats failed this past election, but where was the rebuttal? Who stood up and said "middle America doesn't understand the liberal urbanites"? Why is this a one way road

Because liberal urbanites are a majority over middle America, and minorities are unimpeachable.

Do you even liberal, brah?

If this attitude is pervasive on the left, get ready for 4 more years of pussy grabbing.

I'm not saying my question is one that will produce positive political results. Though for that matter, democrats "understanding" middle America won't either. Democrats should, instead, figure out how to lure the millions of librrals who stayed home last election back to the election booth.

[John A Arkansawyer]

The "liberal elites don't understand rural America " trope was trotted out a lot as a reason the Democrats failed this past election, but where was the rebuttal? Who stood up and said "middle America doesn't understand the liberal urbanites"? Why is this a one way road

Because liberal urbanites are a majority over middle America, and minorities are unimpeachable.

Do you even liberal, brah?

If this attitude is pervasive on the left, get ready for 4 more years of pussy grabbing.

I'm not saying my question is one that will produce positive political results.

Well, then, that was helpful.

Though for that matter, democrats "understanding" middle America won't either. Democrats should, instead, figure out how to lure the millions of librrals who stayed home last election back to the election booth.

You can double down on what hasn't worked and cut yourself off from people unlike yourself and kick the can down the road for someone later to handle after it's gotten even worse--which is how we got into this situation, people kicking that can down the road--or you can try something risky and open up to the lousy fuckers and see what happens, and whether it improves things, or them, or even yourself.

[Iowan]

The "liberal elites don't understand rural America " trope was trotted out a lot as a reason the Democrats failed this past election, but where was the rebuttal? Who stood up and said "middle America doesn't understand the liberal urbanites"? Why is this a one way road

Because liberal urbanites are a majority over middle America, and minorities are unimpeachable.

Do you even liberal, brah?

If this attitude is pervasive on the left, get ready for 4 more years of pussy grabbing.

I'm not saying my question is one that will produce positive political results. Though for that matter, democrats "understanding" middle America won't either. Democrats should, instead, figure out how to lure the millions of librrals who stayed home last election back to the election booth.

And I think understanding middle America will achieve this result.

Trump won 5 states that Obama swept. They're all between the Appalachians and the Rockies.

[Zip City]

You can try flipping some people, though the blue collar class has moved away from the union-supporting blue vote to red, and you might not get them back. I think the idea of appealing to the "moderate" is a losing one, as I don't think moderates exist in the numbers people think they do. Clinton lost simply because democrat/liberal voters didn't like her, and rather than vote anti-Trump, they simply stayed home. I've talked to tons of 20-something's that have told me "I would have voted had Sanders been the nominee, but with Clinton I did t bother"

Playing the safe middle is not a winning strategy anymore, even if it (theoretically) would be best for the country. Republicans know this and have played to extremes of their party to much success. They play dirty and they win. Democrats suck at politics

[John A Arkansawyer]

You can try flipping some people

They aren't houses. The day I saw the Doonesbury cartoon about Joanie looking out at the crowd at Occupy and seeing voters was the day I knew she'd lost her soul. Flipping people. I can't even.

[Zip City]

You can try flipping some people

They aren't houses. The day I saw the Doonesbury cartoon about Joanie looking out at the crowd at Occupy and seeing voters was the day I knew she'd lost her soul. Flipping people. I can't even.

Politics is a numbers game. Sorry that offends you

[Tequila Cowboy]

You can try flipping some people

They aren't houses. The day I saw the Doonesbury cartoon about Joanie looking out at the crowd at Occupy and seeing voters was the day I knew she'd lost her soul. Flipping people. I can't even.

Ok wait a minute, isn't "flipping" what each of us do every single day? As individuals we all represent a point of view and through the course of the day in our interactions we're executing persuasion to our point of view. We recommend movies, music, literature and yes even political views in the hopes that we might sway someone closer to our point of view. On the other hand we're also the persuaded learning and changing as we go. Why should politics be exempt from this? A candidate's job is to convince others that their point of view is the right one so, yes flipping voters is part of it because to win you need more people on your side than the other.

[tinnitus photography]

The "liberal elites don't understand rural America " trope was trotted out a lot as a reason the Democrats failed this past election, but where was the rebuttal? Who stood up and said "middle America doesn't understand the liberal urbanites"? Why is this a one way road

Good question. I guess your answer all depends on who you think fired the first shot in the culture war.

Another way of looking at it is, one bunch is unhappy with America and wants it to change and change a lot. The other doesnt feel that way. So to the non liberal elites it is the liberal elites doing all the pushing thus it makes no sense that people need to stand up to the non liberal elites.

i am really not sure what you are saying here... that the Trump supporters don't want change, or do want change?


and do non-elite liberals exist?

[Cole Younger]

See Iowan's post up there. That's more or less what I was trying to say.

[Flea]

[John A Arkansawyer]

There is some very hard reading in this, especially at this moment in history, but if you can take the harshness--and it's pretty harsh--there's also some hope, when hope is hard to find:

What the last Nuremberg prosecutor alive wants the world to know
At 97, Ben Ferencz is the last Nuremberg prosecutor alive and he has a far-reaching message for today’s world

Lesley Stahl: What turns a man into a savage beast like that?

Benjamin Ferencz: He's not a savage. He's an intelligent, patriotic human being.

Lesley Stahl: He's a savage when he does the murder though.

Benjamin Ferencz: No. He's a patriotic human being acting in the interest of his country, in his mind.

Lesley Stahl: You don't think they turn into savages even for the act?

Benjamin Ferencz: Do you think the man who dropped the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima was a savage? Now I will tell you something very profound, which I have learned after many years. War makes murderers out of otherwise decent people. All wars, and all decent people.

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

While questioning Sally Yates, Ted Cruz just did the seemingly impossible: he made himself look like even more of a slimy ratfuck than he usually does

[pearlbeer]

While questioning Sally Yates, Ted Cruz just did the seemingly impossible: he made himself look like even more of a slimy ratfuck than he usually does

How is that even possible?