The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

[Mr. B]

While I agree with you, I can feel/see the other side of this coin. We can't let them own the 'Both sides' and 'whataboutism' arguments. This isn't equally normalized behavior. Ripping up a speech isn't the same level of bullshit/immaturity/norms.... Look, it SUCKS. But, we are going to win this fight with dignity. Video killed the radio star, and a reality star killed reality. I believe with all my heart in Michelle Obama's "when they go low, we go high". I'm just getting increasingly concerned that doesn't sync with reality. We're likely going to need to get in the trenches and go low. If he grabs 'em by the p*ussy, let's punch 'em in the di*k.

Yeah unfortunately going high and getting the moral high ground or whatever you want to call it, doesn't get you supreme court justices, health care and gun control. The republicans go low and fight dirty and truly don't give a shit and that's why they're winning.

Exactly. And my Republican friends (yes, a few have penetrated my bubble) know all of this, know it is wrong, but the end justifies the means. I would like to think that I would hold myself to a higher standard if the shoe was on the other foot and the party i supported engaged in this behavior and these tactics, but I am now at the point where I honestly don't know where I would draw the line now given how much I hate Trump and his enablers.

[tinnitus photography]

[Smitty]

What an intellectual response. Seems like you took my comment a little personal, but if that shoe fits...

Yes, I do support owning guns. Yes, I do carry and have a permit to do so. What do you have against that? I guess because I respect the Second Amendment they makes me some sort of inferior hillbilly. And working in one of the most run down and crime ridden areas in Pennsylvania, not just some random murder.

You seem angry and half of your post is incoherent. What makes what even? Smitty, are you drinking and typing again?

Yes, I may have been drinking and typing again. You got me dead to rights on that one.

I may have carried over a little unnecessary and irrational animosity from the bullshit I for some reason I entrenched myself in on Facebook (which I've for the most part stayed away from the past year or so) the last couple of days and for that I apologize.

[John A Arkansawyer]

I'll have you know that right as George Orwell smashed that guitar in Animal House, he had this to say:

Four strings good, six strings bad!

As for songs written by the bass player:

[beantownbubba]

Can anyone tell me why my beautiful, brilliant, talented, humane son is dead and a complete piece of shit like Donald trump jr gets to spread his poison and raise stupidity to an art form on a daily basis?

The closest I can come is to say that whatever arcane mechanism of random chance turns these cards up doesn't relate the two events. "Why" and "because" don't enter into it, except that in both cases, the world is grossly, painful, unreasonably unfair.

That, plus I'm really sorry, both about Brian and about how you feel right now. Unlike the world, you are capable of connecting the two events, and that brings extra sadness where no more was needed.

Thank you JohnA. Very wise, on point and appreciated. I guess the immediate issue is that I rationally know the 2 events aren't related but sometimes rationality is overrun by emotion and irrational reality.

[beantownbubba]

Slightly modified from a FB post:

References to Orwell's dystopian vision have become cliched in this difficult time, but his depiction of a world where "words mean what I say they mean" has taken on a new sense of urgency, at least for me.

Lost in all the recent hubbub was the decision by the US Dept of Health & Human Services to grant the Miracle Hill foster agency in SC a waiver from rules prohibiting religious discrimination in providing foster care. Miracle Hill is now free to reject applications from gays and Jews and has made clear that it will do so..

It is frightening that in a mere 5 years or so "religious freedom" has come to mean "religious discrimination" as the whole Constitutional scheme has been turned on its head. That process is frightening but the applied results are even more so. As the governor of SC put it completely unironically and without a thought as to the implications of his statement, "the right to practice religion will not be in jeopardy under the Trump administration." Unless you're Jewish I guess. Dangerous, scary times my friends. A few of the questions raised by this horrible decision implementing a horrible theory:

What in Scripture forces Miracle Hill to take federal money? Isn't refusing federal funds a far better way to achieve its ends while reinforcing the separation of church and state? What about taking federal money is consistent with the general views of people like Miracle Hill supporters and the governor of SC that socialism is not just bad but evil?

More: What about Christianity REQUIRES discrimination against gays and Jews? Assuming that at "best", that's only one interpretation of Scripture, why is the government accepting this interpretation?

Hat tip to black canary for the head's up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ed ... story.html

[John A Arkansawyer]

Still have you on my mind, Jeff.

Let’s Talk Each Other Down

There’s been no lack of stuff to freak out about, if that’s what you feel inclined to do. You’re not wrong. I can’t tell you that all those horrors aren’t happening. But let me try to talk you down in a different way.

In general, people freak out for a very simple reason: They’ve been telling themselves “It’s all going to be OK” when they don’t really know that. When events start to crack that false sense of certainty, one natural reaction is to flip over completely to: “We’re all doomed.”

Allow me to point something out: You don’t really know that either.

So if you come to me hoping I’ll tell you it’s all going to be OK — sorry, I can’t do that. But I can tell you this: Uncertainty is the natural state of human beings. Maybe we’re doomed, but maybe things will be OK — or something in between, more likely. That’s how life is and always has been. It might be true that the arc of the Universe bends towards Justice, but you can never count on that bend being visible in any given lifetime. If you’ve comfortably lived in denial of that reality until this week, I’m sorry you had to find out like this. It’s not really my fault, but never mind: Accept my apology anyway, because probably nobody else will offer one.

You know something that’s even worse? You might be in this state of uncertainty for the rest of your life. Maybe we’re doomed, but maybe we’re not. Nobody really knows. Democracy in America might soon be over, or it might get a reprieve. Truth might finally drown in a sea of disinformation, or maybe it will figure out how to swim in that sea. People are endlessly surprising. Just when you think they’re hopeless, they do something hopeful. And vice versa.

[Swamp]

Would have liked to get back here sooner but we lost our intetnet during the storms and didn't get it back till yesterday. Which probably was a good thing. I got to read a little bit before all my plans for the day were shot.
Instead of watching "In Harms Way", I spent the afternoon and evening with my mom at the hospital. We did watch the XFL together and enjoyed it quite a bit. I haven't watched pro ball for a long time due to political reasons.
The following post I was able to read did help the day start good.

Yes, I may have been drinking and typing again. You got me dead to rights on that one.

I may have carried over a little unnecessary and irrational animosity from the bullshit I for some reason I entrenched myself in on Facebook (which I've for the most part stayed away from the past year or so) the last couple of days and for that I apologize.

BTB, I can't read any of your post without thinking of your loss and I truly feel for you.

[beantownbubba]

Still have you on my mind, Jeff.

I appreciate it, JohnA. I've been reading a fair amount of stuff to the same effect. It's all true and sometimes it helps

BTB, I can't read any of your post without thinking of your loss and I truly feel for you.

Thank you, good sir.

[pearlbeer]

Is it just me or is this the literal definition of 'Obstruction of Justice'?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -criticism

[Mr. B]

Is it just me or is this the literal definition of 'Obstruction of Justice'?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -criticism

Yet another example showing that what has happened to the Department of Justice in the last several years is incredibly disturbing.

[beantownbubba]

The pardons and commutations ("pardons" for convenience here) should not go unnoticed or unremarked on so here's me noticing and remarking.

There is a staggering amount of awfulness to deconstruct here. It's like peeling a very, very large onion where each layer just gets stinkier and less appealing. The good news is that at least on a collective basis the mainstream media and pundits seem to have a decent handle on this and I'm not really up for repeating all that though I undoubtedly could whip up an impressive amount of righteous indignation and outrage, nothing faux about it.

Instead I want to focus on my old friend, the "typical Trump base voter." And ask for the umpteenth time, "how could you? how can you continue to?" Hopefully that voter at least realizes that Trump's promise to drain the swamp was as empty as every other promise he makes. I'm less sure that the voter understands just how much Trump has deepened the swamp and made the merely poisonous truly toxic and deadly. It is no exaggeration to say that this is the most corrupt, most "cronyist" administration in history. It's not even close and what drives snowflakes crazy is that Trump seems proud of this. What my average voter thinks I have no idea but how much shit can a person swallow?

More specifically, is there a voter out there of any persuasion but particularly of the Trump persuasion who has ever said "what this country needs is for more Senate seats to be put up for sale to the highest bidder"? I mean, isn't everyone offended by this? Doesn't everyone find it extremely problematic? Doesn't everyone want to throw those particular bums out? Does anyone think that Blagejevich didn't do it?

Before getting to the piece de resistance of this tragic farce, let's take a moment to consider the cronyism: Trump made no bones of the fact that he pardoned people his friends asked him to/thought were good guys. Is my typical voter, full of resentment over being given the short end of the stick, over life's unfairness and over the way the rich guys always win ok with this? How? Why?

The capper: Let me say that I hate Michael Milken with a passion I reserve for few people I've never met. I think he is despicable. But let's stick to the facts: Does my typical voter know who Milken is? Does my typical voter know that Milken PERSONALLY was responsible for the disappearance of THOUSANDS of just those kind of well paying blue collar jobs that are supposed to be at the center of everything? Does that voter know that Milken PERSONALLY was responsible for the destruction of numerous one industry towns, towns that could have continued happily on because the anchor business was and could remain profitable but which instead were looted, robbed, sacked, pillaged by Milken and his cronies? Has anyone stopped to think how a person could possibly pay a SIX HUNDRED MILLION DOLLAR fine (which was way too low imho) and still amass a multi billion dollar fortune in less than 10 years? Hint: There is no way to do that w/out cheating on a massive scale. And guess who got cheated Mr. average voter. No, don't look around, I'm talking about you. And finally we have Mr. Milken's reputation as a supposed philanthropist, burnished by the best PR firms and the most sycophantic cronies all of whom know "there but for the grace of God go I" so are vitally interested in Milken's pardon. At least as of a couple of years ago, Milken's largest philanthropic contributions by far were to non=profits focused on curing and treating prostate cancer. Wanna take a guess who has prostate cancer? Yes, that would be our Mr. Milken. It's his money and he can do what he wants with it and no doubt many other people will benefit from any success he funds. But is this really what we mean by philanthropy? Is this person really deserving of our admiration and our pardon? Mr. average voter let me ask who's funding research into the toxic waste buried in your backyard or floating down the river you fish? Think anyone cares about everyone you know getting cancer every year?

All of which is a long way of asking, again, how does the average Trump base voter continue to support Trump? Continue to think that Trump has his best interests at heart? Continue to think that Trump is taking steps to improve life for that voter and his friends and family?

[Zip City]

All of which is a long way of asking, again, how does the average Trump base voter continue to support Trump? Continue to think that Trump has his best interests at heart? Continue to think that Trump is taking steps to improve life for that voter and his friends and family?

Trump has over a 90% approval rating among Republicans, so yes, they still support him

[Mr. B]

The pardons and commutations ("pardons" for convenience here) should not go unnoticed or unremarked on so here's me noticing and remarking.

There is a staggering amount of awfulness to deconstruct here. It's like peeling a very, very large onion where each layer just gets stinkier and less appealing. The good news is that at least on a collective basis the mainstream media and pundits seem to have a decent handle on this and I'm not really up for repeating all that though I undoubtedly could whip up an impressive amount of righteous indignation and outrage, nothing faux about it.

Instead I want to focus on my old friend, the "typical Trump base voter." And ask for the umpteenth time, "how could you? how can you continue to?" Hopefully that voter at least realizes that Trump's promise to drain the swamp was as empty as every other promise he makes. I'm less sure that the voter understands just how much Trump has deepened the swamp and made the merely poisonous truly toxic and deadly. It is no exaggeration to say that this is the most corrupt, most "cronyist" administration in history. It's not even close and what drives snowflakes crazy is that Trump seems proud of this. What my average voter thinks I have no idea but how much shit can a person swallow?

More specifically, is there a voter out there of any persuasion but particularly of the Trump persuasion who has ever said "what this country needs is for more Senate seats to be put up for sale to the highest bidder"? I mean, isn't everyone offended by this? Doesn't everyone find it extremely problematic? Doesn't everyone want to throw those particular bums out? Does anyone think that Blagejevich didn't do it?

Before getting to the piece de resistance of this tragic farce, let's take a moment to consider the cronyism: Trump made no bones of the fact that he pardoned people his friends asked him to/thought were good guys. Is my typical voter, full of resentment over being given the short end of the stick, over life's unfairness and over the way the rich guys always win ok with this? How? Why?

The capper: Let me say that I hate Michael Milken with a passion I reserve for few people I've never met. I think he is despicable. But let's stick to the facts: Does my typical voter know who Milken is? Does my typical voter know that Milken PERSONALLY was responsible for the disappearance of THOUSANDS of just those kind of well paying blue collar jobs that are supposed to be at the center of everything? Does that voter know that Milken PERSONALLY was responsible for the destruction of numerous one industry towns, towns that could have continued happily on because the anchor business was and could remain profitable but which instead were looted, robbed, sacked, pillaged by Milken and his cronies? Has anyone stopped to think how a person could possibly pay a SIX HUNDRED MILLION DOLLAR fine (which was way too low imho) and still amass a multi billion dollar fortune in less than 10 years? Hint: There is no way to do that w/out cheating on a massive scale. And guess who got cheated Mr. average voter. No, don't look around, I'm talking about you. And finally we have Mr. Milken's reputation as a supposed philanthropist, burnished by the best PR firms and the most sycophantic cronies all of whom know "there but for the grace of God go I" so are vitally interested in Milken's pardon. At least as of a couple of years ago, Milken's largest philanthropic contributions by far were to non=profits focused on curing and treating prostate cancer. Wanna take a guess who has prostate cancer? Yes, that would be our Mr. Milken. It's his money and he can do what he wants with it and no doubt many other people will benefit from any success he funds. But is this really what we mean by philanthropy? Is this person really deserving of our admiration and our pardon? Mr. average voter let me ask who's funding research into the toxic waste buried in your backyard or floating down the river you fish? Think anyone cares about everyone you know getting cancer every year?

All of which is a long way of asking, again, how does the average Trump base voter continue to support Trump? Continue to think that Trump has his best interests at heart? Continue to think that Trump is taking steps to improve life for that voter and his friends and family?

They just want to win Bubba. And as long as Trump is in office, they win, self-interest be damned. And who cares what kind of world we leave for our kids and grandkids. Clean water is overrated.

The pardons are a joke. (Although let's not forget that what Clinton did with Mark Rich was equally reprehensible. Of course, the right-wing nuts who were up in arms over that don't see any hypocrisy in what Trump is doing.) What's even scarier is how many -- such as Blago -- were apparently driven by the Fox news propaganda machine.

Speaking of Blago, he lives about 2 blocks from me and the media circus around his house for the last day is insane. This morning, my 11 year old asked me why we care what Blago says or thinks and I didn't have an answer for the kid.

[beantownbubba]

They just want to win Bubba. And as long as Trump is in office, they win, self-interest be damned.

OK. So I guess another way of asking my question is, what exactly do they get for winning? If it's not typical self interested stuff then what's left? Sticking it to coastal elites comes to mind and I'm sure there's a lot of satisfaction in that but surely they must realized that the pardoned are essentially a who's who of coastal elites, no? What this really gets down to, I think, is that my typical voter is running out of cover for what's really motivating him.

[Zip City]

The pardons are a strategy. Keep your mouth shut and stay on Trump’s side, and he will hand you a get out of jail free card.

[Iowan]

They just want to win Bubba. And as long as Trump is in office, they win, self-interest be damned.

OK. So I guess another way of asking my question is, what exactly do they get for winning? If it's not typical self interested stuff then what's left? Sticking it to coastal elites comes to mind and I'm sure there's a lot of satisfaction in that but surely they must realized that the pardoned are essentially a who's who of coastal elites, no? What this really gets down to, I think, is that my typical voter is running out of cover for what's really motivating him.

It's team sports. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[Clams]

They just want to win Bubba. And as long as Trump is in office, they win, self-interest be damned.

OK. So I guess another way of asking my question is, what exactly do they get for winning? If it's not typical self interested stuff then what's left? Sticking it to coastal elites comes to mind and I'm sure there's a lot of satisfaction in that but surely they must realized that the pardoned are essentially a who's who of coastal elites, no? What this really gets down to, I think, is that my typical voter is running out of cover for what's really motivating him.

They get to stick it to the liberals. And supreme court justices. And more guns.

[Zip City]

Also, I'm hesitant to presume what someone else's self-interests are

[cortez the killer]

Speaking of pardons....

https://news.yahoo.com/lawyer-assange-o ... 57031.html

[pearlbeer]

They just want to win Bubba. And as long as Trump is in office, they win, self-interest be damned.

OK. So I guess another way of asking my question is, what exactly do they get for winning? If it's not typical self interested stuff then what's left? Sticking it to coastal elites comes to mind and I'm sure there's a lot of satisfaction in that but surely they must realized that the pardoned are essentially a who's who of coastal elites, no? What this really gets down to, I think, is that my typical voter is running out of cover for what's really motivating him.

I grapple with this question constantly. While I certainly understand the sports analogy (although I'd argue Professional Wrestling is more applicable), at some point the realization that the outcomes do, or at least could outweigh the entertainment value should enter at some point. It is just beyond comprehension, and, while I love my fellow man, I find myself increasingly saying 'fuck em all'. I'm sure this is playing into the polarized country we live in, but I'm plum out of excuses for anyone that supports Trump. I can no longer think of any additional categories for the supporters other than 'cruel', 'corrupt' or 'foolish'.

[John A Arkansawyer]

They just want to win Bubba. And as long as Trump is in office, they win, self-interest be damned.

OK. So I guess another way of asking my question is, what exactly do they get for winning? If it's not typical self interested stuff then what's left? Sticking it to coastal elites comes to mind and I'm sure there's a lot of satisfaction in that but surely they must realized that the pardoned are essentially a who's who of coastal elites, no? What this really gets down to, I think, is that my typical voter is running out of cover for what's really motivating him.

Hope. They get hope. Just like the woman in this story. Exactly like her.

[cortez the killer]

I grapple with this question constantly. While I certainly understand the sports analogy (although I'd argue Professional Wrestling is more applicable), at some point the realization that the outcomes do, or at least could outweigh the entertainment value should enter at some point. It is just beyond comprehension, and, while I love my fellow man, I find myself increasingly saying 'fuck em all'. I'm sure this is playing into the polarized country we live in, but I'm plum out of excuses for anyone that supports Trump. I can no longer think of any additional categories for the supporters other than 'cruel', 'corrupt' or 'foolish'.

Deplorable?

[LBRod]

I find myself increasingly saying 'fuck em all'.

Me too. All the politicians anyway. As to those who voted for Trump, I agree with my fellow American Neil Young.

"I don't blame the people who voted for you. I support their right to express themselves, although they have been lied to, and in many cases believed the lies, they are true Americans. I have their back."

[beantownbubba]

The pardons are a strategy. Keep your mouth shut and stay on Trump’s side, and he will hand you a get out of jail free card.

This is undoubtedly true but is only one part of the hydra headed monster that Trump is actualizing w/ these pardons.

It's team sports. Nothing more. Nothing less.

So is that the Washington Nationalists? The Southern Rebels With a Cause? What exactly is the team?

They get to stick it to the liberals. And supreme court justices. And more guns.

This may well be true, i really don't know. It just doesn't feel right to me. Too pat. Sticking it to the liberals was no doubt fun for a while but for 8 years? Plus look who just got out of jail free. People a lot more like coastal elite liberals than like them. Seems a bit thin. And they already have a supreme court majority and on a day to day basis are as interested in the federal courts as I am in squirrel shooting.

I'm hesitant to presume what someone else's self-interests are

I agree. There are two parts to this: The assumption that most people act in their own self interest most of the time and the question of what exactly is their self interest since it seems far from obvious. That's why I keep asking the same questions 10 different ways. I want to know. I want to understand. I hate not understanding.

Speaking of pardons....

https://news.yahoo.com/lawyer-assange-o ... 57031.html

I've been saying it for at least 3 years now: Sooner or later it's all going to come down to 3 things: Russia, Russia and Russia. Trump is hiding a whole bunch of really bad shit behind his attempts to sow chaos, create distractions and discredit legitimate investigations and facts. Whether it all comes out before the election I have no idea, but it will come out and it will reveal Trump in all his tawdry scuminess.

I'm plum out of excuses for anyone that supports Trump. I can no longer think of any additional categories for the supporters other than 'cruel', 'corrupt' or 'foolish'.

This is where I'm headed and what I'm trying to resist. Plus there are a couple of more really nasty words/descriptors that fit into this category that I am very reluctant to use and that I assume you left out intentionally for the same reason. But I am increasingly reminded of Sherlock Holmes' dictum: When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

[Swamp]

Sorry folks it's not quite ready yet but BTB has made me think about my self intrest. I just had the best January since Obama got elected amd Febuary is looking pretty good too!
At first it looked like things were going to get better and I even voted for him a second time but looking back now I regret it. I have a theory though. Clinton got W elected, W got Obama elected and Obama got Trump elected.
Over the last 9 years my business has slowly dwindled. We have been on the brink of bankruptcy (something I've been in denial about) for the last 5 years which coincides with us being MIA at homecoming. The last 3 we went to was with the help of others which didn't do my self esteem any good thus making the HC's less enjoyable.
Last summer things started looking up and now business is booming but I'm not giving Trump the credit, that goes to global warming!
But wait........he don't believe in global warming

[beantownbubba]

Sorry folks it's not quite ready yet but BTB has made me think about my self intrest. I just had the best January since Obama got elected amd Febuary is looking pretty good too!
At first it looked like things were going to get better and I even voted for him a second time but looking back now I regret it. I have a theory though. Clinton got W elected, W got Obama elected and Obama got Trump elected.
Over the last 9 years my business has slowly dwindled. We have been on the brink of bankruptcy (something I've been in denial about) for the last 5 years which coincides with us being MIA at homecoming. The last 3 we went to was with the help of others which didn't do my self esteem any good thus making the HC's less enjoyable.
Last summer things started looking up and now business is booming but I'm not giving Trump the credit, that goes to global warming!
But wait........he don't believe in global warming

I knew things have been tough my friend, but I did not realize quite how tough. I am very sorry to hear it and glad things finally seem to be looking up.

As always, you say things quite differently than I might, but I'm pretty sure I totally agree w/ you on this one. As I read it, I think you make the excellent points that all politics is personal and that determining "self interest" isn't easy, even if you want to limit "self interest" to dollars and cents and especially if you don't. Plus it's a complicated world w/ a lot of inconsistencies; every choice is flawed, it's merely a matter of degree.

Respect and thanks for putting yourself out there for our edification, Mr. Swamp.

[beantownbubba]

A recent op-ed addressing a concern I've raised numerous times over the past few years. Yes, the media really does needs to better understand what it's role is and how best to perform it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... story.html

[Iowan]

Anyone else already over the election? Trump's going to win. It's blindly obvious. My hope is that the Dems can ride the vast anti-Trump sentiment into taking over the Senate and neutering him.

Bernie Sanders has a slightly better than 0% chance of retaking states that flipped from Obama to Trump, with the possible exception of Pennsylvania, and that alone won't be enough to flip the electoral vote.

[jr29]

Anyone else already over the election? Trump's going to win. It's blindly obvious. My hope is that the Dems can ride the vast anti-Trump sentiment into taking over the Senate and neutering him.

Bernie Sanders has a slightly better than 0% chance of retaking states that flipped from Obama to Trump, with the possible exception of Pennsylvania, and that alone won't be enough to flip the electoral vote.

I'm not sure what to think. Polls have Sanders ahead in Michigan too. Wisconsin seems like a long shot.....a very long shot.

I voted a couple days ago and it was undoubtedly the most listless trip I've ever made to the polls.