The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

[Flea]

Sorry your trip was interrupted. You ok?

I just came back from Spain. So far I've never had to use their health care but I'm told its very good.

Sorry I missed you in Spain. I'm doing pretty well, thanks, but it's basically a case of it is what it is: The surgeon said it would take a full month to recover and nothing so far leads me to think it will be shorter.

So that means you'll be at Homecoming, yes?

[Clams]

Feel better soon, bubba!

[cortez the killer]

Feel better soon, bubba!

x2

[beantownbubba]

Thanks everyone.

Hell yeah, I plan to be at homecoming. It takes more than emergency surgery 4,000 miles away from home in a country whose language I don't speak to keep me away.

[beantownbubba]

Although there are some mixed messages here, on the whole I found it pretty interesting. Questions about how liberal the Democratic Party as a whole is and how liberal it should be, to what extent do the very vocal minority of progressive mostly white college educated cohort reflect the beliefs and the interests of the middle class, working class and poor minorities that make up a substantial part of the total party? How synonymous are "liberal" and "anti-racist?" Are white college educated liberals hiding behind social issues to avoid addressing the real bottom line of income inequality, opportunity and related economic concerns that have vastly disparate impacts on the 2 "wings" of the Democratic Party?

And note that with respect to my earlier comment about the flat out unpopularity of the Republican "agenda." such as it is:

"The reality, as summed up by Ryan Enos, is that for all their problems,

The Democrats are clearly the majority party and may be experiencing an unparalleled period of dominance: Since 1992, a period of 30 years, Republicans have only won a majority of popular presidential votes once, in 2004, and that was during the extraordinary time of two overseas wars."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/01/opin ... 029039208a

[John A Arkansawyer]

Although there are some mixed messages here, on the whole I found it pretty interesting. Questions about how liberal the Democratic Party as a whole is and how liberal it should be, to what extent do the very vocal minority of progressive mostly white college educated cohort reflect the beliefs and the interests of the middle class, working class and poor minorities that make up a substantial part of the total party? How synonymous are "liberal" and "anti-racist?" Are white college educated liberals hiding behind social issues to avoid addressing the real bottom line of income inequality, opportunity and related economic concerns that have vastly disparate impacts on the 2 "wings" of the Democratic Party?

This is why I'm a democratic socialist and not a liberal: Beginning with that odious turd Bill Clinton, the Democratic Party has largely turned away from the interests of the working class in favor of what Barbara Ehrenreich calls the "professional-managerial class" (which includes me). It often seems to me the last three prominent people to care about some poor family in West Virginia were MLK, RFK, and LBJ, and we know how that turned out in 1968: Two assassinations and one self-inflicted political death by warmongering.

It's no accident, in my mind, that Martin King was killed shortly after suggesting (March 18, 1968) in his first major speech in Memphis that the sanitation strike he came to support be escalated into a general strike.

[Zip City]

My god who watches this dogshit.

Bill has gone from a Libertarian to a Republican who just hates Trump.

Because he has conservatives on his show ?

I watched about ten minutes of last week's show. He is a full-blown boomer now. He sounds like my 75 year old dad shaking his fist at "kids these days" and flinging out scorching hot takes about the education system and "wokeness". Jesus fucking christ

[phungi]

Hope you are doing Ok, Bubba.

Extending the healthcare conversation, I did a one-year clinical psych internship in Toronto (at the Toronto Hospital) in the early 90's and found their healthcare system equal to ours in nearly every manner, superior to ours with respect to cost and patient satisfaction, and similar with respect to waiting times. Many in the US believe that you wait hours or days to be seen under "socialized" medicine, but the wait to see a specialist in the US can be as long as, if not longer, than other countries... for routine or emergency care, our system sucks by comparison. My graduate advisor was dual Canadian-American citizen, and purposely drove to Canada to get medical treatment, even though he had excellent private insurance in the US. He was one of the most intelligent people I ever met, and fully believed the care he received in Toronto was equal to or better than that in Philadelphia, and there was zero cost with respect to co-pay, post-authorization discrepancies between what the plan allows and what the MD charges, follow-up costs, etc. In the year I lived there, I used the medical system a few times, and paid $0 and got excellent care, medicine, etc.

[Swamp]

Glad you're doing better btb.

[beantownbubba]

Hope you are doing Ok, Bubba.

Extending the healthcare conversation, I did a one-year clinical psych internship in Toronto (at the Toronto Hospital) in the early 90's and found their healthcare system equal to ours in nearly every manner, superior to ours with respect to cost and patient satisfaction, and similar with respect to waiting times. Many in the US believe that you wait hours or days to be seen under "socialized" medicine, but the wait to see a specialist in the US can be as long as, if not longer, than other countries... for routine or emergency care, our system sucks by comparison. My graduate advisor was dual Canadian-American citizen, and purposely drove to Canada to get medical treatment, even though he had excellent private insurance in the US. He was one of the most intelligent people I ever met, and fully believed the care he received in Toronto was equal to or better than that in Philadelphia, and there was zero cost with respect to co-pay, post-authorization discrepancies between what the plan allows and what the MD charges, follow-up costs, etc. In the year I lived there, I used the medical system a few times, and paid $0 and got excellent care, medicine, etc.

We're still stuck in the land of anecdotal evidence but everything you say confirms everything I've heard over a number of years from Americans w/ personal experience of the Canadian system and Canadians familiar w/ the American system. That the US does not have universal healthcare, under some system, continues to shock me on an almost daily basis. I just don't understand how we as a country find this acceptable

[beantownbubba]

Thanks again to all for the good wishes. Most appreciated.

[beantownbubba]

I was thinking that the US House of Representatives more and more resembles high school. But no. The students at my high school were much more mature.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Meet the Contract Killer who Now Represents George Santos in Brazil

[Zip City]

That the US does not have universal healthcare, under some system, continues to shock me on an almost daily basis. I just don't understand how we as a country find this acceptable

It's not shocking at all. It's Capitalism uber alles and if you get sick and die its your own fault for not bootstrapping your way out of poverty

[beantownbubba]

That the US does not have universal healthcare, under some system, continues to shock me on an almost daily basis. I just don't understand how we as a country find this acceptable

It's not shocking at all. It's Capitalism uber alles and if you get sick and die its your own fault for not bootstrapping your way out of poverty

That's easy and tempting to say but I don't think it really works as an explanation. Because this country is clearly not "capitalism uber alles." The number of exceptions are numerous and so embedded in society that we don't even think about them, but they're there. Just for starters: Child labor laws. Minimum wage laws. Social security. Medicare. Public housing. Anti trust laws, when they're enforced. So why not medical care for the under 65's? Even if you want to argue that all of these are simply the necessary minimum to quiet/buy off the masses, it's still not capitalism.

And I'm leaving out a number of government sponsored programs that are arguably tools to support capitalism even though they have great more or less altruistic public benefits like public education, state colleges, subsidized public transportation, etc.

[phungi]

That the US does not have universal healthcare, under some system, continues to shock me on an almost daily basis. I just don't understand how we as a country find this acceptable

It's not shocking at all. It's Capitalism uber alles and if you get sick and die its your own fault for not bootstrapping your way out of poverty

That's easy and tempting to say but I don't think it really works as an explanation. Because this country is clearly not "capitalism uber alles." The number of exceptions are numerous and so embedded in society that we don't even think about them, but they're there. Just for starters: Child labor laws. Minimum wage laws. Social security. Medicare. Public housing. Anti trust laws, when they're enforced. So why not medical care for the under 65's? Even if you want to argue that all of these are simply the necessary minimum to quiet/buy off the masses, it's still not capitalism.

And I'm leaving out a number of government sponsored programs that are arguably tools to support capitalism even though they have great more or less altruistic public benefits like public education, state colleges, subsidized public transportation, etc.

not to omit: fire care, police care, road care... all "socialized" services paid for from taxes

[beantownbubba]

This is why I'm a democratic socialist and not a liberal: Beginning with that odious turd Bill Clinton, the Democratic Party has largely turned away from the interests of the working class in favor of what Barbara Ehrenreich calls the "professional-managerial class" (which includes me). It often seems to me the last three prominent people to care about some poor family in West Virginia were MLK, RFK, and LBJ, and we know how that turned out in 1968: Two assassinations and one self-inflicted political death by warmongering.

Interesting column in today's NYT by Frank Bruni focused on the PA governor "declassifying" about 90% of state jobs that unnecessarily required a college degree and, more generally, the need for the Dems to do more of this kind of thing and to generally get its ass in gear re working people.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/02/opin ... 029039208a

[jr29]

Bill has gone from a Libertarian to a Republican who just hates Trump.

Because he has conservatives on his show ?

I watched about ten minutes of last week's show. He is a full-blown boomer now. He sounds like my 75 year old dad shaking his fist at "kids these days" and flinging out scorching hot takes about the education system and "wokeness". Jesus fucking christ

A big part of the reason we got Trump was a response to the wokeness Bill referred to.

And to say he's a Republican is ridiculous. If a House member, he wouldn't be a part of the far left, "squad" section of the party, but he'd vote
for Democratic supported causes 90+ percent of the time.

[jr29]

That the US does not have universal healthcare, under some system, continues to shock me on an almost daily basis. I just don't understand how we as a country find this acceptable

It's not shocking at all. It's Capitalism uber alles and if you get sick and die its your own fault for not bootstrapping your way out of poverty

Jimmy Carter was ready for a catastrophic coverage plan that would have eased a ton of this burden. It wasn't enough for Ted Kennedy so we got nothing.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Interesting column in today's NYT by Frank Bruni focused on the PA governor "declassifying" about 90% of state jobs that unnecessarily required a college degree and, more generally, the need for the Dems to do more of this kind of thing and to generally get its ass in gear re working people.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/02/opin ... 029039208a

That's a good thing, I think.

[beantownbubba]

Jimmy Carter was ready for a catastrophic coverage plan that would have eased a ton of this burden. It wasn't enough for Ted Kennedy so we got nothing.

I find this response puzzling. I don't remember those events too well but I assume you've described them accurately. There is nothing wrong with using 40+ year old examples, except the 40 years you have chosen to overlook include the Clinton Administration's monumental failed effort to enact some kind of universal medical coverage, the Obama Administration's monumental, painful and ultimately successful effort to enact a program that moved us a lot closer to universal care, the Republicans' one vote failure to repeal Obamacare, Trump's promise to replace Obamacare with a better and cheaper plan which never even made it to a serious attempt, and certain states' refusal to accept free money from the feds to expand medicaid coverage to their poorest citizens. I don't see how any of this is Ted Kennedy's fault or how it demonstrates any failure on the part of Demcrats (they haven't come up w/ a complete or perfect system but in the world of politics, which is supposed to be the art of the possible, their record seems pretty good).

[John A Arkansawyer]

Jimmy Carter was ready for a catastrophic coverage plan that would have eased a ton of this burden. It wasn't enough for Ted Kennedy so we got nothing.

My memory was that it was under Nixon that Ted screwed up national health care by holding out.

[jr29]

Jimmy Carter was ready for a catastrophic coverage plan that would have eased a ton of this burden. It wasn't enough for Ted Kennedy so we got nothing.

I find this response puzzling. I don't remember those events too well but I assume you've described them accurately. There is nothing wrong with using 40+ year old examples, except the 40 years you have chosen to overlook include the Clinton Administration's monumental failed effort to enact some kind of universal medical coverage, the Obama Administration's monumental, painful and ultimately successful effort to enact a program that moved us a lot closer to universal care, the Republicans' one vote failure to repeal Obamacare, Trump's promise to replace Obamacare with a better and cheaper plan which never even made it to a serious attempt, and certain states' refusal to accept free money from the feds to expand medicaid coverage to their poorest citizens. I don't see how any of this is Ted Kennedy's fault or how it demonstrates any failure on the part of Demcrats (they haven't come up w/ a complete or perfect system but in the world of politics, which is supposed to be the art of the possible, their record seems pretty good).

Fair point. I should have explained a little further.
Unless there's something I'm not aware of, that was probably the best chance we've had to implement a national system of healthcare that would have made a truly significant difference and it happened over 40 years ago. There is a lot of blame to go around and with the benefit of hindsight I think a substantial amount of belongs to Ted Kennedy.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Unless there's something I'm not aware of, that was probably the best chance we've had to implement a national system of healthcare that would have made a truly significant difference.

I think you understate the impact of Obamacare. I see it working for my indigent roommate. It's far short of what it should be, but still.

[jr29]

Jimmy Carter was ready for a catastrophic coverage plan that would have eased a ton of this burden. It wasn't enough for Ted Kennedy so we got nothing.

My memory was that it was under Nixon that Ted screwed up national health care by holding out.

https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspecti ... healthcare

[jr29]

Unless there's something I'm not aware of, that was probably the best chance we've had to implement a national system of healthcare that would have made a truly significant difference.

I think you understate the impact of Obamacare. I see it working for my indigent roommate. It's far short of what it should be, but still.

Overall, I'm a fan of Obamacare. It helped a lot of people.
I can tell you this though...I am a small business owner. (I hate saying that btw, seems pretentious) I'm very fortunate that I get my health insurance through my wife's employer. It's good insurance and it's very affordable. I've checked into what we would have to pay through the marketplace should she quit and I would not call it affordable. We are healthy folks, I'm 40 and she's 39, and we could damn near buy a lake house somewhere for the money we'd have to pay monthly for good coverage.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Overall, I'm a fan of Obamacare. It helped a lot of people.
I can tell you this though...I am a small business owner. (I hate saying that btw, seems pretentious) I'm very fortunate that I get my health insurance through my wife's employer. It's good insurance and it's very affordable. I've checked into what we would have to pay through the marketplace should she quit and I would not call it affordable. We are healthy folks, I'm 40 and she's 39, and we could damn near buy a lake house somewhere for the money we'd have to pay monthly for good coverage.

Our insurance comes through my employer as well. It's expensive but worth it.

[brettac1]

Because he has conservatives on his show ?

I watched about ten minutes of last week's show. He is a full-blown boomer now. He sounds like my 75 year old dad shaking his fist at "kids these days" and flinging out scorching hot takes about the education system and "wokeness". Jesus fucking christ

A big part of the reason we got Trump was a response to the wokeness Bill referred to.

And to say he's a Republican is ridiculous. If a House member, he wouldn't be a part of the far left, "squad" section of the party, but he'd vote
for Democratic supported causes 90+ percent of the time.

Tbh that probably says more about the Democrats than anything.

[cortez the killer]

I watched about ten minutes of last week's show. He is a full-blown boomer now. He sounds like my 75 year old dad shaking his fist at "kids these days" and flinging out scorching hot takes about the education system and "wokeness". Jesus fucking christ

A big part of the reason we got Trump was a response to the wokeness Bill referred to.

And to say he's a Republican is ridiculous. If a House member, he wouldn't be a part of the far left, "squad" section of the party, but he'd vote
for Democratic supported causes 90+ percent of the time.

Tbh that probably says more about the Democrats than anything.

Yeah, but spy balloons....

[beantownbubba]

Fair point. I should have explained a little further.
Unless there's something I'm not aware of, that was probably the best chance we've had to implement a national system of healthcare that would have made a truly significant difference and it happened over 40 years ago. There is a lot of blame to go around and with the benefit of hindsight I think a substantial amount of belongs to Ted Kennedy.

Thanks for the explanation.