The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

[Flea]

How did we get here???

Easily explained!

She seems nice.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Finally, the final words anyone will need for the next few years, courtesy of The Onion:

If the last couple years have taught me anything, and they have not, this could be it for Trump.

[beantownbubba]

This is surely the quote of the day, my only question is whether it's the quote of the century. From Michelle Goldberg in today's NYT:

"If Democrats suddenly have a shot in Orange County, it’s because Trump has made basic decency a partisan position."

Combined with the shocking "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat" slogan, this is about all one needs to know about the state of public affairs in 2018.

[pearlbeer]

The Manafort trial is depressingly entertaining. Paul and Rick are simply sleazy criminals. Stealing from the taxpayers, stealing from each other; it just goes on and on. To me, it is looking like these bastards sold out their country for personal gain. Fucking traitors. Hell, not paying your taxes is traitorous, but these goons have reached a new level of awful. I am excited to see this all unfold, but increasingly apprehensive about the pain the country is about to go through. If the rabbit hole really does lead to Russia, that is just...fucked up.

[Tequila Cowboy]

The Manafort trial is depressingly entertaining. Paul and Rick are simply sleazy criminals. Stealing from the taxpayers, stealing from each other; it just goes on and on. To me, it is looking like these bastards sold out their country for personal gain. Fucking traitors. Hell, not paying your taxes is traitorous, but these goons have reached a new level of awful. I am excited to see this all unfold, but increasingly apprehensive about the pain the country is about to go through. If the rabbit hole really does lead to Russia, that is just...fucked up.

It's the logical extension to the "greed is good" mentality of the eighties. I have a friend I've known 40 years who lives and breathes this ethos. He's not a sleazeball himself, not entirely, but he constantly defends them. In his mind the pursuit of money is the American dream and he once told me that morality and maximizing profits do not mix. Manafort and company took that to a whole new level and saw an entire sector of Eastern European opportunity to whom morality meant nothing. My only fear is that Gates is such a scumbag that defense could destroy him in cross examination.

[Zip City]

The Manafort trial is depressingly entertaining. Paul and Rick are simply sleazy criminals. Stealing from the taxpayers, stealing from each other; it just goes on and on. To me, it is looking like these bastards sold out their country for personal gain. Fucking traitors. Hell, not paying your taxes is traitorous, but these goons have reached a new level of awful. I am excited to see this all unfold, but increasingly apprehensive about the pain the country is about to go through. If the rabbit hole really does lead to Russia, that is just...fucked up.

It's the logical extension to the "greed is good" mentality of the eighties. I have a friend I've known 40 years who lives and breathes this ethos. He's not a sleazeball himself, not entirely, but he constantly defends them. In his mind the pursuit of money is the American dream and he once told me that morality and maximizing profits do not mix. Manafort and company took that to a whole new level and saw an entire sector of Eastern European opportunity to whom morality meant nothing. My only fear is that Gates is such a scumbag that defense could destroy him in cross examination.

Is your friend named LJ?

[beantownbubba]

Judging only from the limited number of news stories I've read about the Manafort trial, the weird thing is that this case is a very straightforward white collar criminal trial. Sleazy, despicable people doing sleazy, despicable things to cheat other people and keep more money for themselves. It's not a political trial at all and doesn't seem to involve any issues of national or international significance or national security or even US government corruption (as opposed to personal corruption and the possibly corrupt actions of some eastern european government representatives).

[Tequila Cowboy]

The Manafort trial is depressingly entertaining. Paul and Rick are simply sleazy criminals. Stealing from the taxpayers, stealing from each other; it just goes on and on. To me, it is looking like these bastards sold out their country for personal gain. Fucking traitors. Hell, not paying your taxes is traitorous, but these goons have reached a new level of awful. I am excited to see this all unfold, but increasingly apprehensive about the pain the country is about to go through. If the rabbit hole really does lead to Russia, that is just...fucked up.

It's the logical extension to the "greed is good" mentality of the eighties. I have a friend I've known 40 years who lives and breathes this ethos. He's not a sleazeball himself, not entirely, but he constantly defends them. In his mind the pursuit of money is the American dream and he once told me that morality and maximizing profits do not mix. Manafort and company took that to a whole new level and saw an entire sector of Eastern European opportunity to whom morality meant nothing. My only fear is that Gates is such a scumbag that defense could destroy him in cross examination.

Is your friend named LJ?

Ha! Not even close. Pretty decent guy overall. His wife is the CEO of a major corporation and he sold his share in an arbitrage firm about 5 years ago for $9 million. He immediately took another job trading but that firm went belly up so he was laid off. Now he putters and travels and his wife is about to step down into a corporate ambassador job and they're going to travel the world. Nice work if you can get it. I still don't think greed is good.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Judging only from the limited number of news stories I've read about the Manafort trial, the weird thing is that this case is a very straightforward white collar criminal trial. Sleazy, despicable people doing sleazy, despicable things to cheat other people and keep more money for themselves. It's not a political trial at all and doesn't seem to involve any issues of national or international significance or national security or even US government corruption (as opposed to personal corruption and the possibly corrupt actions of some eastern european government representatives).

No, but I think it's going to be used as a cornerstone as the "company I keep" sort of thing in terms of the overall case against Trump. Ideally of course he wanted Manafort to flip but the oligarchs would have him killed in 12 hours.

[beantownbubba]

Judging only from the limited number of news stories I've read about the Manafort trial, the weird thing is that this case is a very straightforward white collar criminal trial. Sleazy, despicable people doing sleazy, despicable things to cheat other people and keep more money for themselves. It's not a political trial at all and doesn't seem to involve any issues of national or international significance or national security or even US government corruption (as opposed to personal corruption and the possibly corrupt actions of some eastern european government representatives).

No, but I think it's going to be used as a cornerstone as the "company I keep" sort of thing in terms of the overall case against Trump. Ideally of course he wanted Manafort to flip but the oligarchs would have him killed in 12 hours.

Yes, clearly Mueller's strategy was to get Manafort to flip but when that didn't work he (Mueller) was left w/ an odd duck of a case given his mandate. Which is not to say it's not substantial - it certainly appears to be, it's just not the kind of case Mueller or most of us wanted.

As far as a "company I keep" type story line for a Trump prosecution, that type of evidence would generally be inadmissible unless Mueller is even more clever than i think. I should clarify that if part of a Trump prosecution relates to sleazy business dealings in Eastern Europe (as opposed to election tampering etc), then evidence from Manafort's trial might well be admissible. Who knows, Mueller might be holding back evidence of Trump and Manafort participating together in one or more deals.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Stephen Miller Enraged After Discovering Cantaloupe He’s Fucking From Mexico

[pearlbeer]

The Manafort trial is depressingly entertaining. Paul and Rick are simply sleazy criminals. Stealing from the taxpayers, stealing from each other; it just goes on and on. To me, it is looking like these bastards sold out their country for personal gain. Fucking traitors. Hell, not paying your taxes is traitorous, but these goons have reached a new level of awful. I am excited to see this all unfold, but increasingly apprehensive about the pain the country is about to go through. If the rabbit hole really does lead to Russia, that is just...fucked up.

It's the logical extension to the "greed is good" mentality of the eighties. I have a friend I've known 40 years who lives and breathes this ethos. He's not a sleazeball himself, not entirely, but he constantly defends them. In his mind the pursuit of money is the American dream and he once told me that morality and maximizing profits do not mix. Manafort and company took that to a whole new level and saw an entire sector of Eastern European opportunity to whom morality meant nothing. My only fear is that Gates is such a scumbag that defense could destroy him in cross examination.

Tell your friend that making money he can't spend ain't what being dead is about.

[pearlbeer]

What in the hell is this about? Either these people are colossally tone-deaf or they are just trolling us. I'm so fucking tired of this shit.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/rand ... tter-putin

[scotto]

Th' fuck?

[Flea]

Th' fuck?

Want!

[scotto]

They really missed the boat in not having Mike Pence go full Race Bannon for the SPACE FORCE! presser.

[Flea]

[beantownbubba]

Cross posted from the books thread:

Tailspin by Steven Brill was exactly what I thought it would be, which raises the very fundamental question why the fuck would I do this to myself? Despite Brill's optimism (backed by impressive research) that America can reverse out of its current 50 year tailspin, this book should come complete w/ a prozac prescription. As always, Brill makes his case carefully and persuasively and for the most part he is dead on target in identifying the biggest contributors to our current mess; the problem is, reading the details set out so clearly and persuasively is depressing as hell. Probably not must reading in the sense that you probably have some idea about all of the factors and trends he identifies, but well worth reading for the way he weaves the story into a fundamental whole and the way he provides the stats to back up the analysis. Plus every chapter includes an optimistic take on people who are doing the hard work of fighting back against the problems identified in that chapter, which is at least interesting, sometimes new (at least to me) and occasionally inspiring.

[Howlinwolf]

From an ex-FBI special agent:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/ ... d-fbi.html

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

100% serious question for the attorneys up in here:

Given the news out of Pennsylvania, can RICO charges be dropped on the Catholic church?

[beantownbubba]

From an ex-FBI special agent:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/ ... d-fbi.html

There are 2 problems here: 1. "He and fired FBI Director James Comey and fired Deputy Director Andrew McCabe have done more damage to America’s premier law enforcement agency than anyone in its storied 110-year history." These 3 have not done anywhere near the damage to the FBI as has been done by Trump, his spokespeople and his apologists in Congress starting w/ Congressman Nunes. Let's be real about this.

2. "But the reasons for Strzok’s firing, other than the texts, are still not public." This seems to me to be inarguably true, yet the author goes on to state why Strzok was fired. The first statement is true. Therefore Mr. Swecker has no basis for the argument he makes. Beyond that, there is one really, truly serious problem w/ the argument that Strzok should be fired: Whatever his personal views, and however impolitic it may (or may not) have been to express those views in supposedly private emails, none of the ACTIONS Strzok took in any way helped Clinton's campaign or hurt Trump's campaign. In fact, the only thing that can be said about the actions taken and not taken by the FBI in the summer and fall of 2016 is that if they had any effect, they were to help Trump and hurt Clinton. So all you're left w/ is saying that FBI agents should be fired for having political opinions. Maybe there's a good argument for that but if so I haven't heard it and it loses a lot of its urgency when what he THOUGHT is contrasted with what he DID.

[chuckrh]

[beantownbubba]

100% serious question for the attorneys up in here:

Given the news out of Pennsylvania, can RICO charges be dropped on the Catholic church?

RICO is a complicated statute far outside my comfort zone so it would take a lot more effort than I'm prepared to put into it to give you a meaningful answer. I do note that pursuing a RICO claim against the Church would require (by statutory definition/requirement) labeling the Catholic Church as a "criminal enterprise," and I doubt there's a prosecutor in the land ready to take that on. Whether a group smaller than the Church itself might meet the requirement and be a worthwhile target is where I start to drown.

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

100% serious question for the attorneys up in here:

Given the news out of Pennsylvania, can RICO charges be dropped on the Catholic church?

RICO is a complicated statute far outside my comfort zone so it would take a lot more effort than I'm prepared to put into it to give you a meaningful answer. I do note that pursuing a RICO claim against the Church would require (by statutory definition/requirement) labeling the Catholic Church as a "criminal enterprise," and I doubt there's a prosecutor in the land ready to take that on. Whether a group smaller than the Church itself might meet the requirement and be a worthwhile target is where I start to drown.

My point is that they have proven themselves to be a criminal enterprise, regardless of whether any prosecutor has the balls for the fight

[Mr. B]

100% serious question for the attorneys up in here:

Given the news out of Pennsylvania, can RICO charges be dropped on the Catholic church?

RICO is a complicated statute far outside my comfort zone so it would take a lot more effort than I'm prepared to put into it to give you a meaningful answer. I do note that pursuing a RICO claim against the Church would require (by statutory definition/requirement) labeling the Catholic Church as a "criminal enterprise," and I doubt there's a prosecutor in the land ready to take that on. Whether a group smaller than the Church itself might meet the requirement and be a worthwhile target is where I start to drown.

My point is that they have proven themselves to be a criminal enterprise, regardless of whether any prosecutor has the balls for the fight

I have yet to read the grand jury report and have just read a couple of newspaper articles. But I've represented dozens of victims of priest sexual abuse pursuing claims against the Catholic Church and have spent thousands of hours working on those cases, mostly in the Chicago area. We have, at times, attempted to pursue RICO and conspiracy claims (which are relatively similar). The hurdles are numerous, including what Bubba mentions. The number one problem in the vast majority of cases is the statute of limitations issue. (We could talk about that issue for days.) Unfortunately, the limitations issues are huge factors in any type of claim you bring against the Church, including conspiracy-type actions. That said, as more evidence emerges of the Church continuing its cover-up into the recent past, the more likely that conspiracy or RICO claims can survive a statute of limitations challenge as an on-going tort.

Also, the Catholic Church in the US consists of approximately 200 dioceses as well as numerous religious orders (e.g the Jesuits or the Missionaries of Christ). Each of these dioceses are independently incorporated and, except in situations where a priest is "loaned" to another diocese or order, only exercise control over the priests in that diocese. So its sometimes difficult to connect the dots between the dioceses. Of course, that is why dioceses would send "troubled" priests away to a different diocese when it could no longer hide a particular pedophile within its own diocese. And then the priest would start abusing kids in a new location. Some of the the stories are truly sickening.

All of that said, your instincts are basically correct. Historically, the Church pro-actively engaged in a centuries long practice of ignoring abuse, blaming the victim, shielding the rapist and creating every possible obstacle imaginable for those who tried to challenge a priest's behavior. I'm not sure what years the new grand jury report covers, i assume some of the abuse it mentions goes back decades. Some leaders within the church are actually doing a better job of trying to create real reform and protect kids. But the culture of the church -- especially the protection of its priests and, most importantly, its reputation -- is such that meaningful change will only occur slowly.

[beantownbubba]

Good on you, Mr. B. You are truly doing the Lord's work.

[John A Arkansawyer]

I think this says what needs to be said:

We Know Trump Is Guilty. We’re Having a Hard Time Admitting It

In ordinary life, such flagrant and on-going efforts to prevent the truth from coming out are a clear sign of guilt. We rightly demand a higher standard before the criminal law because that is about taking away someone’s liberty. That’s not the case here. We’re only talking about taking away or restrain the power we have given him to use on our behalf...

...You suspect someone has embezzled money from a company. You ask to see the company’s books. The suspect burns the books. They may have prevented you from learning the details. But they told you all you need to know. They’re guilty.

I had my own contribution this morning:

Respectable People Can't Fight Trump Effectively. Who Can? The Answer May Surprise You!

The essence of being a Respectable Person is being a fake real person. That’s true of almost every major politician. The Hillary Clinton of political appearance is a fake pretending to be real. You could see that most clearly after the election, when this funny, slightly sarcastic, human being went on television to plug her book. It was a Hillary Clinton I could have voted for willingly instead of at Trumppoint. She was visibly human, real real, not fake real.

What the women who beat Trump have in common is that they are, like him, real fakes. They really are something very close to those images they project. When you see one of them, you don’t wonder, “Are they really like that?” You know, yes, they are.

Trump does poorly against women who don’t have much interest in pretending to be something they’re not.

All those two pieces have in common is a minor niggling flaw. Both the rules of thumb--consciousness of guilt and the realness of fakery--have exceptions. If you've read Tom King's wonderful Vision miniseries "Little Worse Than A Man, Little Better Than A Beast", you've seen at least one. As they say, the exception proves--tests--the rule. Which is still super useful in getting through life.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Or we could go back to Business As Usual:

[Flea]

Or we could go back to Business As Usual:

They truly have no fucking clue as a Party how to proceed. It's likely to end up being another instance of snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory. This year and in 2020.

[lotusamerica]

The baby boomers happened to exist at the same time as the hippies, so people somehow decided baby boomers shared hippie values. They never did. Hippies were today's progressives (with maybe less small-mindedness), never the mainstream, despite how we like to think of the Woodstock era. The baby boomers were greedy from the start as a generation - they didn't change when they got older. Following after "the greatest generation" that certainly had some high points, but didn't really live up to the hype either - Japanese internment camps, lynching of black people and widespread oppression, uncaring about the plight of the Jews and European populace in general - joining the action only after we were attacked, riding into the fight against the Nazis in the last few years and ultimately being a player in defeating them, but not the only or even most important, killing Japanese citizens with atom bombs when the war was essentially over anyway, then constructing a myth that we saved the world. We ain't what we've cracked ourselves up to be.

Cross posted from the books thread:

Tailspin by Steven Brill was exactly what I thought it would be, which raises the very fundamental question why the fuck would I do this to myself? Despite Brill's optimism (backed by impressive research) that America can reverse out of its current 50 year tailspin, this book should come complete w/ a prozac prescription. As always, Brill makes his case carefully and persuasively and for the most part he is dead on target in identifying the biggest contributors to our current mess; the problem is, reading the details set out so clearly and persuasively is depressing as hell. Probably not must reading in the sense that you probably have some idea about all of the factors and trends he identifies, but well worth reading for the way he weaves the story into a fundamental whole and the way he provides the stats to back up the analysis. Plus every chapter includes an optimistic take on people who are doing the hard work of fighting back against the problems identified in that chapter, which is at least interesting, sometimes new (at least to me) and occasionally inspiring.