The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

[bovine knievel]

Zip have you ever listened to Rogan? I think not.

[oilpiers]

Who is an unbiased source? If Rogan is biased, it is not to the right. He is remarkably well rounded and open minded. And clearly intelligent. But you can dismiss and judge TWO people without listening to them if you choose. Still a free country.

[Zip City]

He leans pretty Libertarian.

[LBRod]

He leans pretty Libertarian.

Compared to you perhaps. Compared to actual libertarians, not so much.

[oilpiers]

He leans pretty Libertarian.

He sure sounds like a Bernie supporter, even though I have not heard him state it. I rarely listen to him, because his interviews surpass 3 hours frequently, but I do listen to people he interviews I'm curious about. He sure schools the right wing king skeptic Michael Shermer when he interviews him. if you go to Gabbards page she lists her viewpoints on around 30 current issues. None of her positions are right leaning.

[Iowan]

Most far left leaning folks I know view Rogan as right wing, and most far right leaning folks view him as left wing.

For the most part, I enjoy the show because it allows people to fully express themselves in an unmanipulated format. While being left of center myself, I make a point of listening to the right wing guests to more fully understand them. I usually come to the conclusion that while I may disagree with them strongly, they have been misrepresented on a regular basis, which I think is less the result of conspiracy, and more the result of seeing them in snippets.

[Iowan]

Based on what she says on Rogan, I was a huge Gabbard supporter.

She's absolutely not a conservative, has no time for Trump, and is willing to take on the military industrial complex. I honestly think that the neo-Nazi endorsements were done out of fear that she could beat Trump, and Russia wanted to poison her in the minds of liberals. It's worked, and she's clearly got no shot, so I've moved on to Mayor Pete, but IMO, she could beat Trump, and I like her actual platform.

I mean, does anyone really think that a neo Nazi wants a female minority to be the President? Come on.

[oilpiers]

Based on what she says on Rogan, I was a huge Gabbard supporter.

She's absolutely not a conservative, has no time for Trump, and is willing to take on the military industrial complex. I honestly think that the neo-Nazi endorsements were done out of fear that she could beat Trump, and Russia wanted to poison her in the minds of liberals. It's worked, and she's clearly got no shot, so I've moved on to Mayor Pete, but IMO, she could beat Trump, and I like her actual platform.

I mean, does anyone really think that a neo Nazi wants a female minority to be the President? Come on.

Thank you. Both of your responses reflect my exact take on her, as well as Rogen. I actually didn't hate Ted Nugent after his interview.

[beantownbubba]

Most far left leaning folks I know view Rogan as right wing, and most far right leaning folks view him as left wing.

I don't know Rogan at all, but this sure sounds like one very good definition of success in his field.

[Cole Younger]

I enjoy Rogan’s show for a lot of reasons but one is what Iowan mentions. Since there are no time constraints you get a much more accurate picture of who the guest is. Very rarely have I ever come away thinking very badly of a guest regardless of their views. They end up being real people because they get a few hours to talk and explain what they mean versus a few minutes. Those addicted to outrage will not and do not like it.

[beantownbubba]

There truly is no bottom and I am so disgusted and so upset I can barely type.

Dept of Justice lawyers arguing in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals on behalf of the government took the position that requiring the government to provide "safe and sanitary conditions" for detained immigrant children does NOT include providing them with soap or toothbrushes. Never mind the policy and mindset that reflects; think about the individual lawyers who actually made that argument with a straight face. Who are these people? What is this country?

[pearlbeer]

Who are these people? What is this country?

This is the face of the modern Republican Party.

[beantownbubba]

Who are these people? What is this country?

This is the face of the modern Republican Party.

True, but too glib to the extent that it deflects from serious reflection about what's going on here. Standing up in court and making this argument goes way past the excuse of "zealous advocacy" and seems indicative of a level of moral decay and lack of basic civility that really goes to the heart of what it means to be a human being, a citizen of this country. IOW, something way more and way worse than partisan politics. This seems to me to be the kind of thing that a lawyer should quit over, rather than making the argument at his/her client's behest (it's even worse if it's the lawyer's own idea). I wonder if those lawyers went home that night and gave their children baths...

And let's not forget that these same soapless and toothbrushless kids are sleeping on hard concrete floors in near freezing temperatures.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Who are these people? What is this country?

This is the face of the modern Republican Party.

True, but too glib to the extent that it deflects from serious reflection about what's going on here. Standing up in court and making this argument goes way past the excuse of "zealous advocacy" and seems indicative of a level of moral decay and lack of basic civility that really goes to the heart of what it means to be a human being, a citizen of this country. IOW, something way more and way worse than partisan politics. This seems to me to be the kind of thing that a lawyer should quit over, rather than making the argument at his/her client's behest (it's even worse if it's the lawyer's own idea). I wonder if those lawyers went home that night and gave their children baths...

And let's not forget that these same soapless and toothbrushless kids are sleeping on hard concrete floors in near freezing temperatures.

If they gave them baths, you'd just complain that they were sent back to their cages to catch pneumonia and die, just because we didn't spring for towels. You people...

[Zip City]

Who are these people? What is this country?

This is the face of the modern Republican Party.

True, but too glib to the extent that it deflects from serious reflection about what's going on here. Standing up in court and making this argument goes way past the excuse of "zealous advocacy" and seems indicative of a level of moral decay and lack of basic civility that really goes to the heart of what it means to be a human being, a citizen of this country. IOW, something way more and way worse than partisan politics. This seems to me to be the kind of thing that a lawyer should quit over, rather than making the argument at his/her client's behest (it's even worse if it's the lawyer's own idea). I wonder if those lawyers went home that night and gave their children baths...

And let's not forget that these same soapless and toothbrushless kids are sleeping on hard concrete floors in near freezing temperatures.

They have convinced themselves that the detainees aren't human, and thus don't need to be treated as such

[John A Arkansawyer]

True, but too glib to the extent that it deflects from serious reflection about what's going on here. Standing up in court and making this argument goes way past the excuse of "zealous advocacy" and seems indicative of a level of moral decay and lack of basic civility that really goes to the heart of what it means to be a human being, a citizen of this country. IOW, something way more and way worse than partisan politics. This seems to me to be the kind of thing that a lawyer should quit over, rather than making the argument at his/her client's behest (it's even worse if it's the lawyer's own idea). I wonder if those lawyers went home that night and gave their children baths...

And let's not forget that these same soapless and toothbrushless kids are sleeping on hard concrete floors in near freezing temperatures.

They have convinced themselves that the detainees aren't human, and thus don't need to be treated as such

It's not the best place to start this story--here's the start of it--but it's still apropos:

“The safest thing would be to kill him on sight,” Sir Toby had said. He and Ritter were in his London office, a walnut-paneled room frowsty with cigar smoke and casual treachery.

“I am no assassin. If murder is your intent, send a professional.”

“So I did, three of them. This is no ordinary man. Indeed, by most accounts, he is hardly a man at all.”

In Ritter’s experience, when his superior emphasized the inhuman nature of an opponent, whether physical, mental, or moral, he intended actions such as no decent man would visit on a fellow member of human society.

[pearlbeer]

Who are these people? What is this country?

This is the face of the modern Republican Party.

True, but too glib to the extent that it deflects from serious reflection about what's going on here. .

Agree 100%, bubba. Living a few hours from the border, I can also tell you that my life has not been significantly, or actually...not at all impacted by migrants or immigration. It is largely an overblown 'threat', but the impact on human rights is astounding. It is disgusting.

But, I think we can add on to that - covering up the murder of a journalist, ignoring climate science, treatment of transgender folks...I mean...I can go on. and on. and on.

There is now so much truly awful behavior. The disregard for human rights, basic humanity, the complete lack of empathy. I worry that the sheer number of atrocities is making the nation Comfortably Numb. Myself...I'm finding it increasingly hard to be pissed off. I am pissed off. Very. fucking. pissed. off. But the shit storm continues to strengthen. I just want it to be over. Honestly, aside from white nationalism, I don't even know what these people are really even fighting for anymore.

[beantownbubba]

There is now so much truly awful behavior. The disregard for human rights, basic humanity, the complete lack of empathy. I worry that the sheer number of atrocities is making the nation Comfortably Numb. Myself...I'm finding it increasingly hard to be pissed off. I am pissed off. Very. fucking. pissed. off. But the shit storm continues to strengthen. I just want it to be over. Honestly, aside from white nationalism, I don't even know what these people are really even fighting for anymore.

Very accurate description of how many, including me, are feeling. The reason why this particular "episode" broke through my personal miasma is because part of me still believes that lawyers and courts are supposed to be part of the solution, not flag carriers for the problem. Naive? Outmoded thinking? Maybe but we're talking about a lifetime of belief here. Lawyers are simply not supposed to make non-credible arguments. Courts are not supposed to listen to them (the accounts I've seen are that the judges were not happy but they don't seem to have thrown the book at these assholes). Yeah, I know we're a long way from perfect justice in this country and miscarriages of justice occur every day. But this one can't be blamed on lack of resources, or overburdened courts, or underpaid overworked legal aid lawyers or even racism (other than in a very attenuated way distinct from how, say, courts routinely treat black defendants). This is intentionally making absurd, unsupportable, fictional arguments in a court of appeals on behalf of the American people (that would be us). It is horrifying in a way that cuts extra deep for me and threatens one of the very last escape hatches that at least theoretically exists for us in these troubled times.

[Zip City]

There is now so much truly awful behavior. The disregard for human rights, basic humanity, the complete lack of empathy. I worry that the sheer number of atrocities is making the nation Comfortably Numb. Myself...I'm finding it increasingly hard to be pissed off. I am pissed off. Very. fucking. pissed. off. But the shit storm continues to strengthen. I just want it to be over. Honestly, aside from white nationalism, I don't even know what these people are really even fighting for anymore.

Very accurate description of how many, including me, are feeling. The reason why this particular "episode" broke through my personal miasma is because part of me still believes that lawyers and courts are supposed to be part of the solution, not flag carriers for the problem. Naive? Outmoded thinking? Maybe but we're talking about a lifetime of belief here. Lawyers are simply not supposed to make non-credible arguments. Courts are not supposed to listen to them (the accounts I've seen are that the judges were not happy but they don't seem to have thrown the book at these assholes). Yeah, I know we're a long way from perfect justice in this country and miscarriages of justice occur every day. But this one can't be blamed on lack of resources, or overburdened courts, or underpaid overworked legal aid lawyers or even racism (other than in a very attenuated way distinct from how, say, courts routinely treat black defendants). This is intentionally making absurd, unsupportable, fictional arguments in a court of appeals on behalf of the American people (that would be us). It is horrifying in a way that cuts extra deep for me and threatens one of the very last escape hatches that at least theoretically exists for us in these troubled times.

It's how the GOP wants the court to work; McConnell is working overtime to stack the courts with as many hardcore, right-wing judges as he can, so that when these unthinkable policies are challenged, the judges will "interpret the law" in their favor. It's a clear and dangerous breakdown of the division of legislative and judicial power in this country

[beantownbubba]

It's how the GOP wants the court to work; McConnell is working overtime to stack the courts with as many hardcore, right-wing judges as he can, so that when these unthinkable policies are challenged, the judges will "interpret the law" in their favor. It's a clear and dangerous breakdown of the division of legislative and judicial power in this country

I apologize if this is a bit too legalistic, but I think the concept is pretty important: It is beyond doubt, it is publicly acknowledged, that the Republicans are trying to turn the federal courts way to the right and they have had a fair amount of success in doing so. Other than the fact that the mere adoption of this strategy is counter to supposed Republican principles, there's really not that much new in this; it's just that for the last 50 years the judges tended to be more left than right and were nominated/appointed w/ perhaps a little less specific intent. What's different w/ this immigration case is that the very processes of the courts are corrupted when lawyers come into court and argue anything, w/out any attempt to be truthful, rational or consistent w/ the actual definitions of actual words and also act in furtherance of goals that can be legitimately described as inhumane and counter to pretty much every principle of justice or fairness I'm acquainted with. The impact of this kind of behavior, if it becomes a regular thing, is hard to overstate. The courts will simply not work if this is how lawyers treat them and act when in court. And if the system breaks down it will not be good for any of us, conservative, liberal or whatever.

[Cole Younger]

Can we not get into another damn war? Would that be ok?

[beantownbubba]

Can we not get into another damn war? Would that be ok?

Well, yeah, but it's kind of hard when the President of the country seems to be following the script of "How to Start a War W/out Really Trying." One can go to the news from any day over the past several months and find some part of the playbook he seems to be following but nothing can top the sheer insanity and irrationality of pulling out of the Iran deal then insisting that the problem is that Iran is not following the terms of the Iran deal. I mean seriously, What. The. Actual. Fuck???

And here's a serious, non-rhetorical question: If you (anybody, not just Cole) were running Iran and didn't want a war, what course would you follow to safety? And how do we feel knowing that the safety of our country and the likelihood of avoiding entering into yet another unwinnable never ending war depends on the good will and patience of the Iranians, our good buddies since...never (or at least not since 1979)?

Just for yucks, we should recognize that the situation is not helped by the almost total abdication of Congress from its SOLE responsibility for declaring war as stated EXPLICITLY in the CONSTITUTION. I have no idea how I would even explain this state of affairs to a reasonably cognizant high school student. It's crazy. And irresponsible. And it removes perhaps the only potential brake between us and an inevitable slide into a war nobody other than John Bolton wants.

[scotto]

We may well enter a catastrophic war with a country because they refuse to adhere to a treaty which we broke.
Some days I don't think human beings deserve to inhabit this planet anymore.

[Swamp]

because they refuse to adhere to a treaty which we broke.

Sounds so familar to our history.

[Zip City]

Good news: Trump canceled his planned attack. I’m sure that it was a total coincidence that Putin made a public statement warning the US to not engage.

[John A Arkansawyer]

And here's a serious, non-rhetorical question: If you (anybody, not just Cole) were running Iran and didn't want a war, what course would you follow to safety?

I'd build me those nukes as fast as I could. That's how bad it is--nuclear proliferation is their best shot at not dying.

[pearlbeer]

Good news: Trump canceled his planned attack. I’m sure that it was a total coincidence that Putin made a public statement warning the US to not engage.

But he was "Cocked and Loaded"!

[beantownbubba]

This story hasn't exactly been ignored (and I'm sure it's front page news in OR) but it doesn't seem to be getting the attention I think it deserves.

Folks, I'm not saying we're out of time yet, but we literally could be experiencing the beginning of the end.

The Oregon state Capitol and the current legislative session are shut down right now due to a credible threat of violence from right wing militia groups. The militias are responding to a fairly bizarre situation in which the state's Republican senators left not just the Capitol, but the state, in order to avoid a vote on climate change-related cap & trade legislation. One fleeing senator threatened to shoot and kill any state police officer who came to collect him.

From the WaPo: "State police confirmed the danger in an emailed statement.

“We have been monitoring information throughout the day that indicates the safety of legislators, staff and citizen visitors could be compromised if certain threatened behaviors were realized,” wrote Capt. Timothy Fox."

From the Willamette Weekly: "Sen. Brian Boquist (R-Dallas) implied that he would shoot and kill any Oregon State Police officer sent by the governor to retrieve him."

OK, it's Oregon, where they've been known to take over state parks to protest something or other that nobody understood. But OTOH it ain't Idaho, aka militialand. Think about this folks. We've got armed and potentially violent protesters shutting down a state government. Thankfully as far as I know things have not yet turned violent. But if not this hour, what about the next? If not this time, what about next time? Shit could get very real very fast.

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

This story hasn't exactly been ignored (and I'm sure it's front page news in OR) but it doesn't seem to be getting the attention I think it deserves.

Folks, I'm not saying we're out of time yet, but we literally could be experiencing the beginning of the end.

The Oregon state Capitol and the current legislative session are shut down right now due to a credible threat of violence from right wing militia groups. The militias are responding to a fairly bizarre situation in which the state's Republican senators left not just the Capitol, but the state, in order to avoid a vote on climate change-related cap & trade legislation. One fleeing senator threatened to shoot and kill any state police officer who came to collect him.

From the WaPo: "State police confirmed the danger in an emailed statement.

“We have been monitoring information throughout the day that indicates the safety of legislators, staff and citizen visitors could be compromised if certain threatened behaviors were realized,” wrote Capt. Timothy Fox."

From the Willamette Weekly: "Sen. Brian Boquist (R-Dallas) implied that he would shoot and kill any Oregon State Police officer sent by the governor to retrieve him."

OK, it's Oregon, where they've been known to take over state parks to protest something or other that nobody understood. But OTOH it ain't Idaho, aka militialand. Think about this folks. We've got armed and potentially violent protesters shutting down a state government. Thankfully as far as I know things have not yet turned violent. But if not this hour, what about the next? If not this time, what about next time? Shit could get very real very fast.

Call them (militias) what they are in this scenario: terrorists

[whatwouldcooleydo?]

From the Willamette Weekly: "Sen. Brian Boquist (R-Dallas) implied that he would shoot and kill any Oregon State Police officer sent by the governor to retrieve him."

Quote from Boquist:

"Send bachelors and come heavily armed,” Boquist said. “I’m not going to be a political prisoner in the state of Oregon. It’s just that simple.”


Two words for Boquist: Lavoy Finicum