The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

brettac1 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:50 am
There is not going to be a "longer view" to take at our current rate. Climate change is here and has been here and the people in power still talk about it like it's some hypothetical thing that's coming in 50 years. Even in this supposed "climate" bill that is (maybe?) passing this week, there are provisions for fossil fuel companies. The level of corporate takeover in our government is deeply rooted.

Biden ran on "nothing will fundamentally change" and couldn't keep that promise (unless it only applied to good things). The Senate is an undemocratic institution and obviously people have been smacked in the face repeatedly about the state of the courts. There is no pathway to the type of change that is so desperately needed by just voting really hard. We're already in a position of minority rule and those folks are not giving up that power easily.

Hell, we've been in a pandemic for two+ years and couldn't even do anything to improve the healthcare system at all. That alone illustrates the level of brokenness.
Nothing to argue with here except I would say the problem is not necessarily that the Senate is undemocratic per se it's the way the game is played in the modern era including but not limited to everything you say above that pushed the dysfunctionality over the edge.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

By now I guess word of Alito's speech in Rome has made the rounds to everyone who might be interested so no point in rehashing it. Just want to file a "placeholder" so that silence is not perceived as acquiescence, much less agreement. Alito's chutzpah is incredible. Not unlike the Freedom Caucus and their ilk he seems to take enjoyment in bringing the system down. That would be the system that pays him $265K/yr for life plus a platinum benefits package.
Last edited by beantownbubba on Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:00 am
Nothing to argue with here except I would say the problem is not necessarily that the Senate is undemocratic per se it's the way the game is played in the modern era including but not limited to everything you say above that pushed the dysfunctionality over the edge.
I feel that any legislative body that gives the least populated and most populated states equal representation is undemocratic at it's core, regardless of which norms are being upheld at a given time.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

brettac1 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:30 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:00 am
Nothing to argue with here except I would say the problem is not necessarily that the Senate is undemocratic per se it's the way the game is played in the modern era including but not limited to everything you say above that pushed the dysfunctionality over the edge.
I feel that any legislative body that gives the least populated and most populated states equal representation is undemocratic at it's core, regardless of which norms are being upheld at a given time.
I agree and I don't think it can be argued. But there is a purpose for the structure. Whether it's genius or stupidity is up to the beholder, but you try forming a union of 50 states where all representation is strictly proportional to population. It ain't easy. It was a compromise, or a negotiation if you prefer, that got us here and the plus side of that should not be disregarded because it hasn't played out the way the Framers envisioned it (or, hell, what do I know, maybe it has) or because a particular group in a particular time and place is abusing the privilege. It may be that the undemocratic nature of the Senate is inherently unstable and therefore certainly unsustainable and presumably undesirable, but I think we ought to consider not only the pluses and minuses of the current structure but also the pluses and minuses of any proposed replacement before we "burn the whole fucking thing down."
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:59 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:30 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:00 am
Nothing to argue with here except I would say the problem is not necessarily that the Senate is undemocratic per se it's the way the game is played in the modern era including but not limited to everything you say above that pushed the dysfunctionality over the edge.
I feel that any legislative body that gives the least populated and most populated states equal representation is undemocratic at it's core, regardless of which norms are being upheld at a given time.
I agree and I don't think it can be argued. But there is a purpose for the structure. Whether it's genius or stupidity is up to the beholder, but you try forming a union of 50 states where all representation is strictly proportional to population. It ain't easy. It was a compromise, or a negotiation if you prefer, that got us here and the plus side of that should not be disregarded because it hasn't played out the way the Framers envisioned it (or, hell, what do I know, maybe it has) or because a particular group in a particular time and place is abusing the privilege. It may be that the undemocratic nature of the Senate is inherently unstable and therefore certainly unsustainable and presumably undesirable, but I think we ought to consider not only the pluses and minuses of the current structure but also the pluses and minuses of any proposed replacement before we "burn the whole fucking thing down."
You will have ample time to contemplate, because the bastards holding power will not relinquish the reins, and half of the American public (dependent on which group of idiots is steering) are too complacent to do a goddamn thing. I can't think of a single remedy that will fix this in my lifetime. Republican minority rule is the norm without drastic (and probably violent) action.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Flea wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:21 pm
I can't think of a single remedy that will fix this in my lifetime. Republican minority rule is the norm without drastic (and probably violent) action.
I know I've been pushing you on this so let me try to clarify: I agree. It will take violence to create the possibility of fundamental change. The difference between us (I think) is that I have no confidence at all that what would replace the status quo would be an improvement. Which creates a serious dilemma for me which I have not resolved to my own satisfaction much less anybody else's. I assume that at some point (which may not be in my lifetime) there will be an "either you're with us or you're against us" moment in which case in most circumstances I can imagine I'd be on the "with us" side, but that's in the extreme case, likely with only bad and less bad choices.

Or put another way, I believe the "American experiment" is/was the world's best chance at meaningful self-government for the benefit of most while protecting the least. The fact that it has not lived up to its promise does not mean that there's a better alternative out there. Cf. Winston Churchill to the effect that democracy is messy and extremely problematic but it's better than any of the other choices.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

There is a better alternative out there. The Benign Dictatorship Of Todd.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

beantownbubba wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:24 am
I must have missed when Congress passed the law that requires that all laws be given incredibly awkward names in order to create cutesy acronyms, but in any case, assuming it actually passes, the "fun" part of the Inflation Reduction Act is for me the revenue side. The spending on the climate/energy side is obviously crucial but it is also obvious. Much more subtle is the 15% minimum tax on large businesses, the increased funding for enforcement for the IRS and, my favorite by far, the end of the carried interest loophole. To me, if it takes hold, this will represent a sea change in the way this country thinks about the revenue (i.e. mostly tax) side of the equation, all for the better. Yes, there's still a long way from here to there but it's not a bad start. By way of awkward analogy, imho this bill advances important changes to the tax system more than the recent gun control bill advanced gun control.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... p_opinions
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Sandel is a really smart, really impressive guy who is always worth reading/listening to (though I have not read the book referenced in the column) and Gerson's summary is a lot easier to read than Sandel's generally academic prose.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... p_opinions

Echoes of LJ (!):

"One of Sandel’s ideas — eliminating the payroll tax and replacing it with taxes on consumption, wealth and financial transactions — might be revolutionary in a good way. It would certainly symbolize a shift in our country’s attitude toward labor."

I can't remember if LJ ever said anything about taxing wealth and financial transactions (I suspect not) but he sure was big into a consumption tax replacing the income tax.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by phungi »

Flea wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:49 pm
There is a better alternative out there. The Benign Dictatorship Of Todd.
As your Secretary of Benign Communication (via haiku)

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"Definitely Not on Drugs"
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

Flea wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:49 pm
There is a better alternative out there. The Benign Dictatorship Of Todd.
God Emperor Todd.

If not that, any flavor of dictatorship of the proletariat seems worth a shot. However, I do not share the (from my perspective) optimism that I'll ever see such a moment arise. There's next to zero class consciousness in this country thanks to generations of indoctrination. For like 30% of the country, "Marxism" is when someone uses they/them pronouns or says you can't say the n-word on Facebook.

I do see small glimmers of hope in the labor uprisings that have been occurring lately but so far not enough to feel confident in the chances of even something like a general strike happening, let alone a revolution. If any kind of action takes place in the near future, it feels like it'd be by the 1/6 folks, only with a lot more of the ziptie guys and fewer of the 70 year-old retired jetski dealership owners who were falling down and having heart attacks. Which is not ideal.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

brettac1 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:32 am
Which is not ideal.
Love that wry, dry, droll Midwestern understatement. :)
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

On the other hand:

Kansas votes to protect abortion rights in state constitution

That's a big deal in more ways than one.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:24 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:24 am
I must have missed when Congress passed the law that requires that all laws be given incredibly awkward names in order to create cutesy acronyms, but in any case, assuming it actually passes, the "fun" part of the Inflation Reduction Act is for me the revenue side. The spending on the climate/energy side is obviously crucial but it is also obvious. Much more subtle is the 15% minimum tax on large businesses, the increased funding for enforcement for the IRS and, my favorite by far, the end of the carried interest loophole. To me, if it takes hold, this will represent a sea change in the way this country thinks about the revenue (i.e. mostly tax) side of the equation, all for the better. Yes, there's still a long way from here to there but it's not a bad start. By way of awkward analogy, imho this bill advances important changes to the tax system more than the recent gun control bill advanced gun control.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... p_opinions
I'm just gonna give myself a pat on the back for being out in front on this one

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 00007F7AB9
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:01 am
On the other hand:

Kansas votes to protect abortion rights in state constitution

That's a big deal in more ways than one.
I suppose it's small potatoes in contrast to the significance of the result, but it seems to me that there's a lot to ponder about the way anti-abortionists and Republicans went about trying to change the state constitution in KS. For one thing, they scheduled the vote on primary day, instead of general election day, a well known tactic to suppress the vote and obtain an "insider's" outcome in the face of popular disapproval. They structured the resolution so that voting to keep abortion access constitutional in KS required voting "no" on the resolution, confusing at best. Panicking at the 11th hour, they mounted an email campaign to try to convince potential voters that voting "yes" would save abortion access, an outright lie and manipulation of the electoral process. And they still got their heads handed to them. This suggests two things to me: The major players are immoral and corrupt, willing to do anything to win and those players absolutely positively know that their position is not popular and cannot stand up to fair voting. Whether that reality will influence the outcome of the November elections is uncertain, but if you see Republicans and anti-abortionists running scared, getting increasingly loud, combative and aggressive and increasingly relying on dirty tricks to try to save their electoral prospects well, it's because they're a minority attempting to impose their will on the majority and they've been sucker punched into believing otherwise by their echo chamber.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:18 am
I expect that aid package to happen no later than spring 2023, maybe a lot sooner.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:02 pm
I suppose it's small potatoes in contrast to the significance of the result, but it seems to me that there's a lot to ponder about the way anti-abortionists and Republicans went about trying to change the state constitution in KS...And they still got their heads handed to them. This suggests two things to me: The major players are immoral and corrupt, willing to do anything to win and those players absolutely positively know that their position is not popular and cannot stand up to fair voting. Whether that reality will influence the outcome of the November elections is uncertain, but if you see Republicans and anti-abortionists running scared, getting increasingly loud, combative and aggressive and increasingly relying on dirty tricks to try to save their electoral prospects well, it's because they're a minority attempting to impose their will on the majority and they've been sucker punched into believing otherwise by their echo chamber.
The bolded part is far too pessimistic. It's certainly going to affect the outcome; the question is, by how much?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

I don't understand why we argue about things that we agree about.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Flea wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:37 pm
I don't understand why we argue about things that we agree about.
Because we don't really agree?

I specifically don't agree that there is a causal relationship from violence to fundamental change. We're in a time of uncertainty and open possibilities, among them violence and fundamental change. Those possibilities often correlate because (I think) they have common causes, not because of direct causality. I still believe there is a lot to be gained by political means and--here's why it's worth arguing about--this is a prime moment for it. Between the massive overreach of Dobbs and the ever-growing exposure of the 1/6 plot, it's possible to make significant political gains. But right now's the time.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

beantownbubba wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:24 am
I must have missed when Congress passed the law that requires that all laws be given incredibly awkward names in order to create cutesy acronyms, but in any case, assuming it actually passes, the "fun" part of the Inflation Reduction Act is for me the revenue side. The spending on the climate/energy side is obviously crucial but it is also obvious. Much more subtle is the 15% minimum tax on large businesses, the increased funding for enforcement for the IRS and, my favorite by far, the end of the carried interest loophole. To me, if it takes hold, this will represent a sea change in the way this country thinks about the revenue (i.e. mostly tax) side of the equation, all for the better. Yes, there's still a long way from here to there but it's not a bad start. By way of awkward analogy, imho this bill advances important changes to the tax system more than the recent gun control bill advanced gun control.
i am waiting for the Finally Acting Responsibly Today act.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Flea wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:37 pm
I don't understand why we argue about things that we agree about.
Because it's easier to win the argument?
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

tinnitus photography wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:35 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:24 am
I must have missed when Congress passed the law that requires that all laws be given incredibly awkward names in order to create cutesy acronyms, but in any case, assuming it actually passes, the "fun" part of the Inflation Reduction Act is for me the revenue side. The spending on the climate/energy side is obviously crucial but it is also obvious. Much more subtle is the 15% minimum tax on large businesses, the increased funding for enforcement for the IRS and, my favorite by far, the end of the carried interest loophole. To me, if it takes hold, this will represent a sea change in the way this country thinks about the revenue (i.e. mostly tax) side of the equation, all for the better. Yes, there's still a long way from here to there but it's not a bad start. By way of awkward analogy, imho this bill advances important changes to the tax system more than the recent gun control bill advanced gun control.
i am waiting for the Finally Acting Responsibly Today act.
:lol: :lol:

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

BTW, I have no idea why the White House is insisting that 2 straight quarters of economic contraction is not a recession. I suppose it's because it's easier to argue about definitions than it is to try to fix problems, but still, it's unseemly and unhelpful.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:59 am
Flea wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:37 pm
I don't understand why we argue about things that we agree about.
Because we don't really agree?

I specifically don't agree that there is a causal relationship from violence to fundamental change. We're in a time of uncertainty and open possibilities, among them violence and fundamental change. Those possibilities often correlate because (I think) they have common causes, not because of direct causality. I still believe there is a lot to be gained by political means and--here's why it's worth arguing about--this is a prime moment for it. Between the massive overreach of Dobbs and the ever-growing exposure of the 1/6 plot, it's possible to make significant political gains. But right now's the time.
I would superficially agree with the basic premise but I do not have any faith in this iteration of the Democratic Party to do much of anything meaningful, nor do I think their congressional leadership has anything to offer aside from their trademark impotence.

FDR's not walking through that door. If by some miracle they maintained or increased their majorities (I'm highly skeptical of this, regardless of the positive outcome in Kansas), I don't think electing a half dozen ex-CIA operatives who ran with a "D" next to their name is going to help accomplish any kind of needed change.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

I have read more than I'd like to about Pelosi's trip to Taiwan and I still don't understand it. Talk about violating political norms, what's more normal than foreign policy being mostly in the hands of the President? What's less normal than the Speaker of the House going on an official visit to a foreign country against the express wishes of the President of her own party? In relatively recent days gone by this would have been shocking; today it's just more fodder for the 8 hour news cycle, but still, I'm scratching my head.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

brettac1 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:30 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:00 am
Nothing to argue with here except I would say the problem is not necessarily that the Senate is undemocratic per se it's the way the game is played in the modern era including but not limited to everything you say above that pushed the dysfunctionality over the edge.
I feel that any legislative body that gives the least populated and most populated states equal representation is undemocratic at it's core, regardless of which norms are being upheld at a given time.
If the most densely populated states were solidly Republican would you still feel that way?
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:29 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:30 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:00 am
Nothing to argue with here except I would say the problem is not necessarily that the Senate is undemocratic per se it's the way the game is played in the modern era including but not limited to everything you say above that pushed the dysfunctionality over the edge.
I feel that any legislative body that gives the least populated and most populated states equal representation is undemocratic at it's core, regardless of which norms are being upheld at a given time.
If the most densely populated states were solidly Republican would you still feel that way?
I don't support minority rule regardless of who is doing the ruling.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:58 am
BTW, I have no idea why the White House is insisting that 2 straight quarters of economic contraction is not a recession. I suppose it's because it's easier to argue about definitions than it is to try to fix problems, but still, it's unseemly and unhelpful.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

brettac1 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:35 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:29 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:30 pm

I feel that any legislative body that gives the least populated and most populated states equal representation is undemocratic at it's core, regardless of which norms are being upheld at a given time.
If the most densely populated states were solidly Republican would you still feel that way?
I don't support minority rule regardless of who is doing the ruling.
I heard that. I don’t support people being ruled.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

While the Kansas result is promising, I think they most immediate result is going to be other states simply not making it a ballot measure and trying to ram their beliefs through the legislature instead.
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