The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

People on both sides of the recent S Ct decisions will find plenty to object to in this op-ed, which by itself makes it interesting. But what makes it worth reading imho is that it describes an important piece of the Constitutional system that often gets lost in the heat of specific issue oriented debates: The Constitution is in many ways, most of them intentional, an anti-majoritarian, anti-democratic document and system.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 00007F7AB9
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cortez the killer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:42 am
People on both sides of the recent S Ct decisions will find plenty to object to in this op-ed, which by itself makes it interesting. But what makes it worth reading imho is that it describes an important piece of the Constitutional system that often gets lost in the heat of specific issue oriented debates: The Constitution is in many ways, most of them intentional, an anti-majoritarian, anti-democratic document and system.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 00007F7AB9
This sentiment, shared by tens of millions of Americans, contributed to a populist backlash that helped create the current court’s conservative majority. That majority hopes that enforcing the Constitution’s original meaning will put the court on a sturdier political foundation, but it could also invite a popular backlash of its own. It’s a historic experiment that will test the Constitution’s continued alignment with American political life, and our worthiness of its commands.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Clams »

cortez the killer wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:27 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:42 am
People on both sides of the recent S Ct decisions will find plenty to object to in this op-ed, which by itself makes it interesting. But what makes it worth reading imho is that it describes an important piece of the Constitutional system that often gets lost in the heat of specific issue oriented debates: The Constitution is in many ways, most of them intentional, an anti-majoritarian, anti-democratic document and system.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 00007F7AB9
This sentiment, shared by tens of millions of Americans, contributed to a populist backlash that helped create the current court’s conservative majority. That majority hopes that enforcing the Constitution’s original meaning will put the court on a sturdier political foundation, but it could also invite a popular backlash of its own. It’s a historic experiment that will test the Constitution’s continued alignment with American political life, and our worthiness of its commands.
Running a country based on a document as it was written 250 years ago, without regard to how life has changed over those years, is fucking ridiculous
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cortez the killer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

Clams wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:40 am
cortez the killer wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:27 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:42 am
People on both sides of the recent S Ct decisions will find plenty to object to in this op-ed, which by itself makes it interesting. But what makes it worth reading imho is that it describes an important piece of the Constitutional system that often gets lost in the heat of specific issue oriented debates: The Constitution is in many ways, most of them intentional, an anti-majoritarian, anti-democratic document and system.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 00007F7AB9
This sentiment, shared by tens of millions of Americans, contributed to a populist backlash that helped create the current court’s conservative majority. That majority hopes that enforcing the Constitution’s original meaning will put the court on a sturdier political foundation, but it could also invite a popular backlash of its own. It’s a historic experiment that will test the Constitution’s continued alignment with American political life, and our worthiness of its commands.
Running a country based on a document as it was written 250 years ago, without regard to how life has changed over those years, is fucking ridiculous
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

Imagine being the kind of dumbass that literally believes that shit (not the ones that do out of opportunism/career advancement).
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

“Get over it.”
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Food for thought from a favorite democrat and a new-to-me socialist:

Altercation: The ‘Dobbs’ Backlash and the Democrats’ Choice
Republicans on the Supreme Court overturned the will of the majority; do liberals have the leadership to fight back?

Since the early ’60s, liberals relied on what Samuel Moyn, in a prescient and tightly argued 2020 essay in Dissent, termed “juristocracy” rather than democracy to win their political battles. Now it has come back to bite them in the ass. Victories in the courts—which were reflected in the popular culture—led to complacency about winning elections. One could easily name a whole host of issues in which liberals enjoy a supermajority in opinion polls but cannot get anywhere in terms of legislation or even much in the way of presidential action, even when one of our guys is president.
I got curious and looked up that essay--it's not long, either:

The Court Is Not Your Friend
Progressives have little to lose and much to gain by leaving juristocracy to the enemies of democracy.

The returns for converting democratic politics into judicial selection have been very meager for the left. The point is not to gainsay some good things that judges did at the zenith of liberal power. But it is worth asking whether the courts were necessary to the outcomes—and whether it was worth depending on an antidemocratic power that the right has now turned against progressives.
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brettac1
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

Samuel Moyn has been a guest on a podcast I really love, which is hosted on Dissent's website, called "Know Your Enemy."

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/kn ... amuel-moyn
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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

First time venturing in here in a really long time. What I’ve noticed over the years about this thread is a bunch of the regular participants are pissed off year round through every election regardless of the balance of power in congress or who is in the White House. Some of y’all are furious no matter what is going on. That doesn’t seem like a political problem. Seems like a you problem. I know from years on this board that I have to explain that I’m not talking about certain people but I really don’t feel like doing that. This thread looks like rage and fear porn driven mostly by the existence of there being people who aren’t like you and there not really being anything you can do about it. I’m not interested in a shit slinging contest so for the ones who love to do that, sling it at each other. Y’all take care.
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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

The more I read about the EPA decision the more I realize that in some ways the EPA decision is the most outrageous of all the recent outrages.

For one example, the EPA had withdrawn the regs at issue in the case, making the case moot. For all you originalists out there, the Constitution actually SAYS that the Court can only decide "cases and controversies", i.e. actively litigated cases in which the parties have an actual interest. While pretty much every word of the Constitution can be debated in some way, it's been clear for over 200 years that the Court shouldn't and doesn't decide moot cases such as this*. So not only did the Court ignore the original and actual words of the Constitution they went out of their way to decide this case anyway. Another term for that is "judicial activism" which of course is something that conservative jurists would NEVER engage in.

For another, the Court's ruling is based on the idea that "major decisions" can be delegated to the executive, i.e. administrative agencies, only by express and specific language. The words "major decisions" do not appear in the Constitution. The Court literally made up this doctrine, a not very originalist or textualist thing to do.

And for a third, the Court's decision calls into question the entire structure and existence of the "administrative state" since its "reasoning" is applicable to a wide range of actions/regulations by a wide range of agencies. Well, we know that's the majority's intent and ok, say that's the correct conclusion. What's going to replace it and how will we manage the chaos that is coming until that replacement emerges? It is absurd to think that Congress, even a functional Congress, can regulate the details and minutiae that it traditionally delegates to executive agencies. So does that mean we go back to the unregulated wild west of the 19th century? While solutions are not the Court's department, it really ought to be cognizant of the impact this decision has, most directly and immediately on the environment/climate change but also on the very ability of the government to function.

So, surprise, surprise, originalism, textualism and judicial restraint are once again revealed to be the frauds that they are and the Court's hypocrisy is laid bare. Nobody is 100% consistent; hypocrisy is an occupational hazard for all decision makers, especially politicians, but the magnitude and import of these particular hypocrisies furthers and accelerates the delegitimizing of the Court.

*There are some well established exceptions but none apply here.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:00 am
First time venturing in here in a really long time. What I’ve noticed over the years about this thread is a bunch of the regular participants are pissed off year round through every election regardless of the balance of power in congress or who is in the White House. Some of y’all are furious no matter what is going on. That doesn’t seem like a political problem. Seems like a you problem. I know from years on this board that I have to explain that I’m not talking about certain people but I really don’t feel like doing that. This thread looks like rage and fear porn driven mostly by the existence of there being people who aren’t like you and there not really being anything you can do about it. I’m not interested in a shit slinging contest so for the ones who love to do that, sling it at each other. Y’all take care.
Presumably it's obvious that my last post was not in response to this post.

You're right that some people are in a permanent rage and others are in periodic rages (I put myself in the latter camp and this is certainly one of those periods). It's exhausting for both the ragers and those exposed to their rage and can distort reality. It's often counter productive, see, e.g, your post.

There's enough history here that we can both predict that any attempt to make counter arguments on most topics will quickly degenerate into, as you say, shit-slinging and I can't and won't urge you to put yourself in that position. But it's also true that what you've posted is also a way to avoid engaging and a way to avoid acknowledging any valid concerns. I suppose what I'm saying is that it's not your job to represent any particular POV or to point out any particular weaknesses or holes in others' views and it's not your job to put yourself into a position to be abused by doing so but your dismissal of most or all of what's been posted here as illegitimate or pointless is imho less than convincing.

I had been hoping that you would respond to General Flynn's deposition because you are almost uniquely situated (among people here anyway) to have a personally meaningful and important, even crucial, perspective. Perhaps naively, I thought you could respond to that without subjecting yourself to all the shit slinging because it's not a matter of fact or even "reasoned opinion" if I can dare to use that term, it's a matter of your experience and personal opinion. So I hope you'll reconsider on that point but again, I can understand why you might not.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:00 am
First time venturing in here in a really long time. What I’ve noticed over the years about this thread is a bunch of the regular participants are pissed off year round through every election regardless of the balance of power in congress or who is in the White House. Some of y’all are furious no matter what is going on. That doesn’t seem like a political problem. Seems like a you problem. I know from years on this board that I have to explain that I’m not talking about certain people but I really don’t feel like doing that. This thread looks like rage and fear porn driven mostly by the existence of there being people who aren’t like you and there not really being anything you can do about it. I’m not interested in a shit slinging contest so for the ones who love to do that, sling it at each other. Y’all take care.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Cole Younger wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:00 am
First time venturing in here in a really long time. What I’ve noticed over the years about this thread is a bunch of the regular participants are pissed off year round through every election regardless of the balance of power in congress or who is in the White House. Some of y’all are furious no matter what is going on. That doesn’t seem like a political problem. Seems like a you problem. I know from years on this board that I have to explain that I’m not talking about certain people but I really don’t feel like doing that. This thread looks like rage and fear porn driven mostly by the existence of there being people who aren’t like you and there not really being anything you can do about it. I’m not interested in a shit slinging contest so for the ones who love to do that, sling it at each other. Y’all take care.
I'm not sure where I fit onto your spectrum here, but I don't know that I would argue either way. I don't participate in any social media, so 3DDs functions as really, my sole source of "social media". I enjoy participating in the exchanges here and appreciate most of the analysis and opinions offered. I KNOW I'm largely screaming into an echo chamber. But, that can be somewhat cathartic, at least for me...it's a largely safe space, filled with folks I mostly know and respect. All of that added together, I'm certain can come across as excessive hyperbole at times, but I'm not trying to disavow that.

That said...I am angry. I am enraged. I am scared. I do care.

And know that I desperately wish the above weren't so true. Cole, I get your comment about 'porn'. Boy would I like to find a different obsession.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

pearlbeer wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:22 pm
I'm not sure where I fit onto your spectrum here, but I don't know that I would argue either way. I don't participate in any social media, so 3DDs functions as really, my sole source of "social media". I enjoy participating in the exchanges here and appreciate most of the analysis and opinions offered. I KNOW I'm largely screaming into an echo chamber. But, that can be somewhat cathartic, at least for me...it's a largely safe space, filled with folks I mostly know and respect. All of that added together, I'm certain can come across as excessive hyperbole at times, but I'm not trying to disavow that.

That said...I am angry. I am enraged. I am scared. I do care.

And know that I desperately wish the above weren't so true. Cole, I get your comment about 'porn'. Boy would I like to find a different obsession.
Like.

This is also my only social media space for political discussion (other than a couple of private convos). I've learned a lot over the years and find it a comfortable place to be. But I liked it a lot more, and learned a lot more, during those brief periods when we fostered a respectful place where conflicting views could be rationally and civilly discussed. I won't say there was ever a golden age of "purity" but there were some times when this place approached the best of the internet might be. IMHO of course. I'd love to get back there again and welcome any suggestions that might help. With fewer active participants it might be possible to create a more "controlled" setting but of course that has its downsides, too.

One thought I had was limiting back and forth on specific issues for a period of time to only 2 people, one on each side of the issue (or 1 for every distinct view if more than 2). We'd also probably want to limit the lengths of posts in this scenario.

Another thought which might be even stranger is to approach political issues like we used to approach song or artist of the week topics: Let someone pick (or let Clams assign) a topic, set out the basic facts and [ideally] the basic arguments on both sides and then explain why they come down the way they do. That might at least set a tone and would provide a common basis from which to launch discussion. It would require some work by the initial poster of course.

I know at least some of the weaknesses and practical difficulties of trying to establish and enforce either of those approaches so no need to go there, but if you've got suggestions to improve either thought or, better yet, a better idea, please don't hesitate to share with the class.
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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Again.

Again.

Again.

Again.

Again.

Again.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Very much worth reading:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/04/opin ... 029039208a

If you can't access the article pm me your email address and I can forward the article to at least the first few who respond.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Jonicont »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:22 am
Very much worth reading:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/04/opin ... 029039208a

If you can't access the article pm me your email address and I can forward the article to at least the first few who respond.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:44 am
Again.

Again.

Again.

Again.

Again.

Again.
Again.
They're not monsters. They're not animals.

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cortez the killer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

Clams wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:40 am
cortez the killer wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:27 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:42 am
People on both sides of the recent S Ct decisions will find plenty to object to in this op-ed, which by itself makes it interesting. But what makes it worth reading imho is that it describes an important piece of the Constitutional system that often gets lost in the heat of specific issue oriented debates: The Constitution is in many ways, most of them intentional, an anti-majoritarian, anti-democratic document and system.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 00007F7AB9
This sentiment, shared by tens of millions of Americans, contributed to a populist backlash that helped create the current court’s conservative majority. That majority hopes that enforcing the Constitution’s original meaning will put the court on a sturdier political foundation, but it could also invite a popular backlash of its own. It’s a historic experiment that will test the Constitution’s continued alignment with American political life, and our worthiness of its commands.
Running a country based on a document as it was written 250 years ago, without regard to how life has changed over those years, is fucking ridiculous

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Clams »

:lol:
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

I always like Doug Muder's stuff, and this one is solid:

Freedom isn’t maximized by having no rules; it’s maximized by having the right rules.

It does beg the question of who decides what the right rules are, but that's okay; we have to settle the metaquestion of "rules or not" first.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:14 am
I always like Doug Muder's stuff, and this one is solid:

Freedom isn’t maximized by having no rules; it’s maximized by having the right rules.

It does beg the question of who decides what the right rules are, but that's okay; we have to settle the metaquestion of "rules or not" first.

Well the Republican philosophy boils down to two things:

- I (we, the GOP) get to tell other people what to do
- No one gets to tell me (us) what to do

When one party is the "rules for thee, not for me" party, I don't know how you move forward with the "right" rules
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Zip City wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:45 am
When one party is the "rules for thee, not for me" party, I don't know how you move forward with the "right" rules
By defeating the other party, obviously, which is a mostly separate question. The value of having consistent principles to rally our side around is the reason I posted a cogent, understandable article, written for a general audience, arguing for such a principle.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

I enjoyed this Op-Ed in the NYT today.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/11/opin ... sContainer


Now that the right has gotten their way, they need to be exposed for the lack of any sort of plan. This movement, this moment has been decades in the making...and the goal is clearly a national ban...but what is the actual PLAN?

Enforcement and policing are nebulous at best.

And what about all the new babies? Where do they go? What's the plan? There are currently close to half a million kids in Foster Care, so again...what's the PLAN?
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Spoiler: there is no plan
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Zip City wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:56 pm
Spoiler: there is no plan
Dammit, Zip...I had just gotten my corn popped.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

pearlbeer wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:07 pm
Zip City wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:56 pm
Spoiler: there is no plan
Dammit, Zip...I had just gotten my corn popped.
Is that a metaphor?
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cortez the killer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

pearlbeer wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:07 pm
Zip City wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:56 pm
Spoiler: there is no plan
Dammit, Zip...I had just gotten my corn popped.
Promises made.
Promises kept.

Onto the next bumper sticker.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:40 am
Zip City wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:45 am
When one party is the "rules for thee, not for me" party, I don't know how you move forward with the "right" rules
By defeating the other party, obviously, which is a mostly separate question.
Speaking of defeating the other party, here's one way:

Michigan’s Already Got Roe on the Ballot
For months Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D) has been attuned not only to the substantive importance of protecting abortion rights in the state but how the issue might help her win reelection.
The implications for Michigan politics are greater than just Whitmer's re-election, important as that is. It helps all down the ballot. Getting Roe on the ballot in one way or another is key to Democratic wins nationwide. Michigan shows it's possible.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:43 pm
If you've got suggestions to improve either thought or, better yet, a better idea, please don't hesitate to share with the class.
I wish I did, but I don't. The closest thing I have to a big thought lately is "rule of law" as good government and good politics. I've looked at enough judges in my life to have serious gratitude for judgement by law rather than man. Losing that fundamental good is a scary thought, but here we are. Is it possible that rule of law under federal government is also a winning campaign issue, aside from being a basic requirement for liberty? And can you believe I'm asking that in the twenty-first century?
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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