The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

brettac1 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:28 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:17 am
brettac1 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:45 am
The whole point of yesterday was seemingly the Mike Pence rehabilitation tour. Absolutely insufferable.
I'm not sure what else the Committee could or should have done. In terms of legitimate inquiry, historical record and political considerations, the better Pence looks, the worse Trump, Eastman and the rest of the cabal (and to some extent, the supposed Trump "team normal") look, and that's really the point of the exercise. And if you're trying to show how close we came to full on melt-down, an heroic Pence standing tall against the forces of evil is almost necessary to tell that story, because if he didn't step up big then the threat was arguably not that great.
Less of witnesses describing/soliloquizing his actions and the story of his day and more of a sober telling of history. Pence is a Christian nationalist. He is himself a force of evil. The people that worked for/around him share that worldview.

Certainly one of the worst developnents of the social media age is that large portions of the country seem to have the memory of a goldfish.
I'm not sure if we're splitting hairs or having a substantive disagreement, but FWIW:

To the extent we're talking about presentation, that's mostly a detail to me. But as long as we're talking about it, I didn't see Thursday's hearing, but in general, telling the story through witnesses, especially impeccably Republican, Trump administration affiliated witnesses, is better than a monologue from a committee member(s), sober or not.

We should distinguish between different forces of evil. IMHO, Forces of Evil I are those who threaten the structure of the country and rule of law. Pence showed himself to be very much non-evil on that one. Forces of Evil II are people who actively oppose the things I care about, generally on non-substantive, non-rational, hypocritical bases. Pence is quite a good fit there, but right now the fight is against Forces of Evil I. To anticipate a possible response, it doesn't matter if my ally against FoE I is my opposition on FoE II. As they used to say, politics makes for strange bedfellows.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:16 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:28 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:17 am


I'm not sure what else the Committee could or should have done. In terms of legitimate inquiry, historical record and political considerations, the better Pence looks, the worse Trump, Eastman and the rest of the cabal (and to some extent, the supposed Trump "team normal") look, and that's really the point of the exercise. And if you're trying to show how close we came to full on melt-down, an heroic Pence standing tall against the forces of evil is almost necessary to tell that story, because if he didn't step up big then the threat was arguably not that great.
Less of witnesses describing/soliloquizing his actions and the story of his day and more of a sober telling of history. Pence is a Christian nationalist. He is himself a force of evil. The people that worked for/around him share that worldview.

Certainly one of the worst developnents of the social media age is that large portions of the country seem to have the memory of a goldfish.
I'm not sure if we're splitting hairs or having a substantive disagreement, but FWIW:

To the extent we're talking about presentation, that's mostly a detail to me. But as long as we're talking about it, I didn't see Thursday's hearing, but in general, telling the story through witnesses, especially impeccably Republican, Trump administration affiliated witnesses, is better than a monologue from a committee member(s), sober or not.

We should distinguish between different forces of evil. IMHO, Forces of Evil I are those who threaten the structure of the country and rule of law. Pence showed himself to be very much non-evil on that one. Forces of Evil II are people who actively oppose the things I care about, generally on non-substantive, non-rational, hypocritical bases. Pence is quite a good fit there, but right now the fight is against Forces of Evil I. To anticipate a possible response, it doesn't matter if my ally against FoE I is my opposition on FoE II. As they used to say, politics makes for strange bedfellows.
I don't think we're having a substantive disagreenent so much as I did watch the whole thing (my first mistake, but I was bored after getting home from work and mowing my lawn) and found the bulk of it to be pretty groan-inducing and at times pathetic.

RE: your distinctions of evil, I'd say Pence was non-evil *in that moment.*. He made a calculated political move that in that particular moment. He'd love to be in that FoE I category some day.
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cortez the killer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:16 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:28 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:17 am


I'm not sure what else the Committee could or should have done. In terms of legitimate inquiry, historical record and political considerations, the better Pence looks, the worse Trump, Eastman and the rest of the cabal (and to some extent, the supposed Trump "team normal") look, and that's really the point of the exercise. And if you're trying to show how close we came to full on melt-down, an heroic Pence standing tall against the forces of evil is almost necessary to tell that story, because if he didn't step up big then the threat was arguably not that great.
Less of witnesses describing/soliloquizing his actions and the story of his day and more of a sober telling of history. Pence is a Christian nationalist. He is himself a force of evil. The people that worked for/around him share that worldview.

Certainly one of the worst developnents of the social media age is that large portions of the country seem to have the memory of a goldfish.
I'm not sure if we're splitting hairs or having a substantive disagreement, but FWIW:

To the extent we're talking about presentation, that's mostly a detail to me. But as long as we're talking about it, I didn't see Thursday's hearing, but in general, telling the story through witnesses, especially impeccably Republican, Trump administration affiliated witnesses, is better than a monologue from a committee member(s), sober or not.

We should distinguish between different forces of evil. IMHO, Forces of Evil I are those who threaten the structure of the country and rule of law. Pence showed himself to be very much non-evil on that one. Forces of Evil II are people who actively oppose the things I care about, generally on non-substantive, non-rational, hypocritical bases. Pence is quite a good fit there, but right now the fight is against Forces of Evil I. To anticipate a possible response, it doesn't matter if my ally against FoE I is my opposition on FoE II. As they used to say, politics makes for strange bedfellows.

Because there's always a Robert Pollard song for every occasion. :lol:
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

brettac1 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:32 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:16 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:28 am

Less of witnesses describing/soliloquizing his actions and the story of his day and more of a sober telling of history. Pence is a Christian nationalist. He is himself a force of evil. The people that worked for/around him share that worldview.

Certainly one of the worst developnents of the social media age is that large portions of the country seem to have the memory of a goldfish.
I'm not sure if we're splitting hairs or having a substantive disagreement, but FWIW:

To the extent we're talking about presentation, that's mostly a detail to me. But as long as we're talking about it, I didn't see Thursday's hearing, but in general, telling the story through witnesses, especially impeccably Republican, Trump administration affiliated witnesses, is better than a monologue from a committee member(s), sober or not.

We should distinguish between different forces of evil. IMHO, Forces of Evil I are those who threaten the structure of the country and rule of law. Pence showed himself to be very much non-evil on that one. Forces of Evil II are people who actively oppose the things I care about, generally on non-substantive, non-rational, hypocritical bases. Pence is quite a good fit there, but right now the fight is against Forces of Evil I. To anticipate a possible response, it doesn't matter if my ally against FoE I is my opposition on FoE II. As they used to say, politics makes for strange bedfellows.
I don't think we're having a substantive disagreenent so much as I did watch the whole thing (my first mistake, but I was bored after getting home from work and mowing my lawn) and found the bulk of it to be pretty groan-inducing and at times pathetic.

RE: your distinctions of evil, I'd say Pence was non-evil *in that moment.*. He made a calculated political move that in that particular moment. He'd love to be in that FoE I category some day.
con·se·quence
noun
plural noun: consequences
a result or effect of an action or condition.


I think that is the missing word. Consequences. Will anything ever actually happen? If not, why wouldn't the bad behavior continue?

It's infuriating...

- Whatever happened to all the Matt Gatez stuff? No consequences at the top...
- I kind of recall the NRA being in hot water for bankruptcy and misappropriating funds. No consequences.
- Jan 6 riots...no real consequences above the actual boots on the ground.
- "We build the Wall". A clear grift...no consequences.
- Sexual conduct of Evangelical preachers...no consequences.
- Clear failure to report stock sales...no consequences.
- Ignoring Congressional subpoenas...no consequences.
- Two impeachments...no consequences.


I could go on... (and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on)



Remember that time that Al Franken pretended to touch a boob a long time ago? Consequences.

So, I'm getting increasingly pissed off and disillusioned when I hear BULLSHIT like Sonia Sotomayor just said...."the arc of history bends toward justice".

Maybe it DID. Maybe it DOES. Until it DOESN'T.
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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

pearlbeer wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:25 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:32 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:16 pm


I'm not sure if we're splitting hairs or having a substantive disagreement, but FWIW:

To the extent we're talking about presentation, that's mostly a detail to me. But as long as we're talking about it, I didn't see Thursday's hearing, but in general, telling the story through witnesses, especially impeccably Republican, Trump administration affiliated witnesses, is better than a monologue from a committee member(s), sober or not.

We should distinguish between different forces of evil. IMHO, Forces of Evil I are those who threaten the structure of the country and rule of law. Pence showed himself to be very much non-evil on that one. Forces of Evil II are people who actively oppose the things I care about, generally on non-substantive, non-rational, hypocritical bases. Pence is quite a good fit there, but right now the fight is against Forces of Evil I. To anticipate a possible response, it doesn't matter if my ally against FoE I is my opposition on FoE II. As they used to say, politics makes for strange bedfellows.
I don't think we're having a substantive disagreenent so much as I did watch the whole thing (my first mistake, but I was bored after getting home from work and mowing my lawn) and found the bulk of it to be pretty groan-inducing and at times pathetic.

RE: your distinctions of evil, I'd say Pence was non-evil *in that moment.*. He made a calculated political move that in that particular moment. He'd love to be in that FoE I category some day.
con·se·quence
noun
plural noun: consequences
a result or effect of an action or condition.


I think that is the missing word. Consequences. Will anything ever actually happen? If not, why wouldn't the bad behavior continue?

It's infuriating...

- Whatever happened to all the Matt Gatez stuff? No consequences at the top...
- I kind of recall the NRA being in hot water for bankruptcy and misappropriating funds. No consequences.
- Jan 6 riots...no real consequences above the actual boots on the ground.
- "We build the Wall". A clear grift...no consequences.
- Sexual conduct of Evangelical preachers...no consequences.
- Clear failure to report stock sales...no consequences.
- Ignoring Congressional subpoenas...no consequences.
- Two impeachments...no consequences.


I could go on... (and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on)



Remember that time that Al Franken pretended to touch a boob a long time ago? Consequences.

So, I'm getting increasingly pissed off and disillusioned when I hear BULLSHIT like Sonia Sotomayor just said...."the arc of history bends toward justice".

Maybe it DID. Maybe it DOES. Until it DOESN'T.
If one were so inclined, one might argue that the message of American political history is that there are no consequences, ever. On this reading, Watergate is the big exception and Iran-Contra is a smallish exception, but mostly it's a lot of people getting away w/ a lot of bad shit. No one paid the price for swearing there were WMD's in Iraq (except the people who died and were maimed on all sides because of it); nobody paid the price for ignoring the warning signs of 9/11; Bill Clinton didn't really pay a price for Monica Lewinsky (what price he should have paid remains an open question in my mind); nobody paid the price for the goddamn 2008 financial meltdown; and on and on in a veritable and very large hall of shame.

The disillusionment and cynicism generated by just the 21st century lack of consequences has quite a bit to do with the more obvious problems we have.

BTW, the arc of history line is MLK's. Obama used to (and probably still does) quote it often.
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cortez the killer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:56 pm
BTW, the arc of history line is MLK's. Obama used to (and probably still does) quote it often.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Forgot about LBJ. There is at least an argument that they system worked the way it was supposed to when he chose not to run in '68 under pressure from antiwar candidates. But of course that ended in Nixon's election and surprise, suprise Nixon actually didn't have a secret plan to end the war. I'm not sure exactly what happened to Gen. Westmoreland but at least reputationally he took a pretty decent sized hit. But the real architects of the war, the so-called "best and the brightest," didn't really pay much of a price at all.

Hoover paid a price for presiding over the Depression but that situation was so extreme I don't know if it helps to view it through this lens at all.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by jr29 »

I don't care what Pence's motives were. When the chips were down he did the right thing. He is a pretty shitty, loathsome guy for the most part, but he got this one right.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

cortez the killer wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:30 pm
BTW, the arc of history line is MLK's. Obama used to (and probably still does) quote it often.
Au contraire, mon frère! One Rev. Theodore Parker said it first, though a bit more wordily:
I do not pretend to understand the moral universe, the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways. I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. But from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

A report, highly unscientific, from the field:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... -rcna34037
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

beantownbubba wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:59 am
A report, highly unscientific, from the field:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... -rcna34037
To which the sensible people replied...

Image
Now it's dark.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

The headline tells the story of this one, directly relevant to the Pence commentary above:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/18/opin ... 029039208a
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

beantownbubba wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:59 am
A report, highly unscientific, from the field:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... -rcna34037
This once again/still raises the age old (well, at least since 2016) question "what do his supporters see in Trump and why do they follow him?" It remains a complete mystery to me to the extent that it's almost a rhetorical question at this point (though I'd really like to know the answer). "He owns the libs" or words to that effect just doesn't cut it as an explanation or if that's all there is it's even worse than I think and I already think it's pretty damn bad.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:10 am
This once again/still raises the age old (well, at least since 2016) question "what do his supporters see in Trump and why do they follow him?" It remains a complete mystery to me to the extent that it's almost a rhetorical question at this point (though I'd really like to know the answer). "He owns the libs" or words to that effect just doesn't cut it as an explanation or if that's all there is it's even worse than I think and I already think it's pretty damn bad.
In Trump, they see power: He does what's wrong, he lies and steals, breaks the rules, and gets away with it. With him as a leader, they can aspire.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Texas also wants to replace democracy with a state electoral college voting system. They see a future where they can no longer win popular votes so they want to give giant, unpopulated chunks of the state the same voting power as Austin and Houston
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:48 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:10 am
This once again/still raises the age old (well, at least since 2016) question "what do his supporters see in Trump and why do they follow him?" It remains a complete mystery to me to the extent that it's almost a rhetorical question at this point (though I'd really like to know the answer). "He owns the libs" or words to that effect just doesn't cut it as an explanation or if that's all there is it's even worse than I think and I already think it's pretty damn bad.
In Trump, they see power: He does what's wrong, he lies and steals, breaks the rules, and gets away with it. With him as a leader, they can aspire.
I remember reading a piece back in 2020 that something like 40% of Americans are disposed to support an authoritarian. The supporters are essentially authoritarians in search of an authoritarian.

And to John's take, I generally agree. The people that love him see him doing all of those things and say "but, he's doing that for *me.*"
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

brettac1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:50 pm
John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:48 am
beantownbubba wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:10 am
This once again/still raises the age old (well, at least since 2016) question "what do his supporters see in Trump and why do they follow him?" It remains a complete mystery to me to the extent that it's almost a rhetorical question at this point (though I'd really like to know the answer). "He owns the libs" or words to that effect just doesn't cut it as an explanation or if that's all there is it's even worse than I think and I already think it's pretty damn bad.
In Trump, they see power: He does what's wrong, he lies and steals, breaks the rules, and gets away with it. With him as a leader, they can aspire.
I remember reading a piece back in 2020 that something like 40% of Americans are disposed to support an authoritarian. The supporters are essentially authoritarians in search of an authoritarian.

And to John's take, I generally agree. The people that love him see him doing all of those things and say "but, he's doing that for *me.*"
He's also effectively courted the "lost citizens" who walked away from both Democrats and Republicans decades ago. Through his rallies and social media he told them everything they wanted to hear with no intention of delivering. At some point, it will be abundantly clear that he is completely full of shit, but most of them and him will be gone by then.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

brettac1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:50 pm
The people that love him see him doing all of those things and say "but, he's doing that for *me.*"
cortez the killer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:33 pm
Through his rallies and social media he told them everything they wanted to hear with no intention of delivering. At some point, it will be abundantly clear that he is completely full of shit, but most of them and him will be gone by then.
This is exactly the nub of the thing, this is the disconnect for me. How can anyone possibly believe Trump is working on their behalf or even cares about their problems? How can anyone/everyone not see that he has no intention of delivering on his promises? How can they not see that he hasn't delivered a thing yet? Trump is not just an autocrat, he's an incompetent one and unlike at least some autocrats, makes pretty clear that he doesn't give a shit about the people he courts. And yet...
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:00 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:50 pm
The people that love him see him doing all of those things and say "but, he's doing that for *me.*"
cortez the killer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:33 pm
Through his rallies and social media he told them everything they wanted to hear with no intention of delivering. At some point, it will be abundantly clear that he is completely full of shit, but most of them and him will be gone by then.
This is exactly the nub of the thing, this is the disconnect for me. How can anyone possibly believe Trump is working on their behalf or even cares about their problems? How can anyone/everyone not see that he has no intention of delivering on his promises? How can they not see that he hasn't delivered a thing yet? Trump is not just an autocrat, he's an incompetent one and unlike at least some autocrats, makes pretty clear that he doesn't give a shit about the people he courts. And yet...
Who is exposing him? The libtards? The lamestream media? Such educated and distinguished folks like yourself? He has literally gotten away with everything to this point, bubba. He is a fuckin' matyr to a surprisingly large percentage of the population who are now dug in beyond belief that the Radical Left, RINOs, Deep State, etc. are simply out to get him, and by extension, them.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by brettac1 »

beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:00 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:50 pm
The people that love him see him doing all of those things and say "but, he's doing that for *me.*"
cortez the killer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:33 pm
Through his rallies and social media he told them everything they wanted to hear with no intention of delivering. At some point, it will be abundantly clear that he is completely full of shit, but most of them and him will be gone by then.
This is exactly the nub of the thing, this is the disconnect for me. How can anyone possibly believe Trump is working on their behalf or even cares about their problems? How can anyone/everyone not see that he has no intention of delivering on his promises? How can they not see that he hasn't delivered a thing yet? Trump is not just an autocrat, he's an incompetent one and unlike at least some autocrats, makes pretty clear that he doesn't give a shit about the people he courts. And yet...
I think because for a lot of people, politics is something they view as having been detached from their day-to-day lives for the past several years.

Culture war/grievance politics resonate with people who feel that way much more than whatever confusing means-tested program is being pushed on any given day. Being square in the middle of a hollowed-out, deindustrialized rust belt state, I see it a lot.

If the politicians aren't going to do anything to help them, the least they can do is trigger the people down the street that they don't like.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Trump also plays up the lie of “The American Dream” [tm] and all the grievances that come from the inevitable failures to achieve it.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

brettac1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:29 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:00 pm
brettac1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:50 pm
The people that love him see him doing all of those things and say "but, he's doing that for *me.*"
cortez the killer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:33 pm
Through his rallies and social media he told them everything they wanted to hear with no intention of delivering. At some point, it will be abundantly clear that he is completely full of shit, but most of them and him will be gone by then.
This is exactly the nub of the thing, this is the disconnect for me. How can anyone possibly believe Trump is working on their behalf or even cares about their problems? How can anyone/everyone not see that he has no intention of delivering on his promises? How can they not see that he hasn't delivered a thing yet? Trump is not just an autocrat, he's an incompetent one and unlike at least some autocrats, makes pretty clear that he doesn't give a shit about the people he courts. And yet...
I think because for a lot of people, politics is something they view as having been detached from their day-to-day lives for the past several years.

Culture war/grievance politics resonate with people who feel that way much more than whatever confusing means-tested program is being pushed on any given day. Being square in the middle of a hollowed-out, deindustrialized rust belt state, I see it a lot.

If the politicians aren't going to do anything to help them, the least they can do is trigger the people down the street that they don't like.
Fear and anger is a helluva concoction that nobody manipulates like the GOP. As I was driving through "The Valley" here in Connecticut yesterday, I was reflecting on the whole hollowed-out, industrial wasteland scenario you mention, brettac. Towns like Thomaston, Torrington and Winstead are largely rusted-out, abandoned manufacturing communities with high rates of poverty, drug issues and blight. Connecticut was once a purple state, but in recent years has turned reliably blue. However, as you drive through these area you see a strong TRUMP presence.
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beantownbubba
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

cortez the killer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:23 pm
Who is exposing him? The libtards? The lamestream media? Such educated and distinguished folks like yourself? He has literally gotten away with everything to this point, bubba. He is a fuckin' matyr to a surprisingly large percentage of the population who are now dug in beyond belief that the Radical Left, RINOs, Deep State, etc. are simply out to get him, and by extension, them.
I'm glad you asked that question because it allows me to make clear a key aspect of my inability to understand the Trump/MAGA phenomenon: If one grew up in NY like I did, or lived there in the 70's and 80's like I did for part of that time, you knew of Donald Trump and you understood him to be a clown and not just a mere clown but a sleazy particularly ugly form of clown. He was the butt of all kinds of jokes and nobody took him seriously. He is still exactly the same person, although let loose on, and having an impact on, a much bigger stage. It shouldn't and I would argue it doesnt take educated libtards to "expose" Trump. There shouldn't be any need to "expose" Trump. I firmly believe that a substantial majority of Trump supporters have at least an average amount of common sense. I believe those people, like all of us, make judgments about people all the time, and more often than not, make the correct judgments so as not to be taken in one way or another. Yet the whole Trump phenomenon rests on the willing suspension of disbelief by those very same people. I do understand that a mix of fear, anger, desperation and resentment is what causes people to want a Trump-like figure in their lives and to root for him. But how that toxic mix gets people to Trump specifically remains an alchemy or, to be a tad more modern, algorithm that I still don't get.

I do get that the fear we're talking about is very, very real and is often founded on subconscious perceptions or senses of a changing world hostile to some people's or groups' fundamental understanding of how the world works and how they fit into it. That includes the hollowing out of the rust belt and the general loss of good paying manufacturing jobs and ways to make a middle class living w/out an advanced degree but it is not limited to those disastrous developments. All of that is powerful, powerful stuff and I like to think that I have a reasonable understanding of that phenomenon, or mix of phenomena. But once again, I don't get how anyone can see the solution or even the salve for that to be Donald Trump. I also understand at least to some extent how those fears and that anger can lead people to lash out and take solace in cheap shots or baiting or "torturing" the targets of that anger, but again I have to stop and say, yeah, but Donald Trump?? I get that part of Trump's appeal is that he has always been willing to say the quiet part out loud, whether the target of his anger is women, the disabled, Black people, liberals, etc. But Trump is far from the only one pushing those envelopes. Why do the same folks who seem to understand that Ted Cruz is a completely lacking human being or that Josh Hawley is an entitled poseur attempting to coopt them for his own purposes, not see the same things in Donald Trump? How did Donald Trump effectively steal what became his movement from Newt Gingrich? Perhaps the answer is that Trump fans understand at some level that Trump is essentially a nihilist and supporting a nihilist is a lot easier and a lot more fun than supporting someone who wants to lead them in the hard work of actually doing something about the actual, threatened and perceived harms they are experiencing. But wow, that would be a really depressing conclusion.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:56 pm
If one grew up in NY like I did, or lived there in the 70's and 80's like I did for part of that time, you knew of Donald Trump and you understood him to be a clown and not just a mere clown but a sleazy particularly ugly form of clown. He was the butt of all kinds of jokes and nobody took him seriously.
That's his media superpower: You look at him and see what you want to see. Others see what he wants them to see, because they want what he wants.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

To add to my previous post about the lie of the American Dream, Trump was masterful at taking the disappointment and anger of the failing middle class and laser focusing it onto perceived threats to success.

Put another way: The American Dream sells the idea that anyone who works hard and lives clean will succeed in life. We all know that’s bullshit, but for the true believers, there are only two reasons one can fail: it’s either your fault, or someone else cheated you out of what you’re owed. Well if I work hard and live clean and see no reward, the it MUST be someone else’s fault.

Enter Trump, who gleefully points out all the people who are stealing your success from you. Mexicans, liberals, blacks, etc. Hell, HE worked hard to win in 2020, so the only way he lost is because the election was STOLEN. It’s all the same narrative.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Zip City wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:50 am
To add to my previous post about the lie of the American Dream, Trump was masterful at taking the disappointment and anger of the failing middle class and laser focusing it onto perceived threats to success.

Put another way: The American Dream sells the idea that anyone who works hard and lives clean will succeed in life. We all know that’s bullshit, but for the true believers, there are only two reasons one can fail: it’s either your fault, or someone else cheated you out of what you’re owed. Well if I work hard and live clean and see no reward, the it MUST be someone else’s fault.

Enter Trump, who gleefully points out all the people who are stealing your success from you. Mexicans, liberals, blacks, etc. Hell, HE worked hard to win in 2020, so the only way he lost is because the election was STOLEN. It’s all the same narrative.
Agree, with the slight edit....

The American Dream sells the idea that any WHITE CHRISTIAN who works hard and lives clean will succeed in life.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Merrick Garland is in Ukraine investigating War Crimes.

Seems like a real good use of time and resources. Not much the Justice Department needs to do domestically, so let's go "investigate" a 100% war crime, which will 99.99999% never wind up in a court of any kind. Cool.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

pearlbeer wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:30 pm
Merrick Garland is in Ukraine investigating War Crimes.

Seems like a real good use of time and resources. Not much the Justice Department needs to do domestically, so let's go "investigate" a 100% war crime, which will 99.99999% never wind up in a court of any kind. Cool.
Yeah, I literally thought I read it wrong when I saw that. Hard to fathom (that's me wearing my polite hat).
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Back to Trump and his fans for a moment: I think everybody has identified at least a part of the elephant. That is to say, all the factors identified are relevant to the general level of anger, fear, mistrust, justified and unjustified paranoia, etc. But just to remind ourselves of things that are mostly no longer spoken of, here are some things Trump fans must overlook to support him. I am deliberately staying away from political issues about which opinions can differ; this is just stuff about him. Keep in mind when reading the backgrounds of so many Trump supporters from evangelicals to military veterans, to military wannabes, to those who feel they are being displaced by others even if those others are not immigrants, Black people and women, etc.

The family values voter has to overlook Trump's 3 marriages at least 2 of which played out mostly in the newspapers as well as his serial admitted adultery.

The Christians have to overlook Trump's lack of charity, his looting of his own charities and his unchristian attitude towards the disabled, the poor, the African, and others.

The believers in "pizzagate," i.e. that a secret group of pedophiles operating out of the basement of a pizza joint controls the government have to overlook Trump's long and close relationship w/ noted pedophile and trafficker Jeffrey Epstein.

The military guys, the military wannabes and the all around macho men have to overlook that Trump was a draft dodger who not only dodged the draft, he did so by pulling strings while continuing to play sports. Given the historical enmity of vets towards draft dodgers this is particularly difficult to understand.

The anti elitist have to overlook the several categories of elite that Trump is a part of: Rich (by way of inheritance to boot), Ivy League degree, NYC born, bred and mostly lived. Plus his Ivy league degree was bought by his father.

Those who admire self-made men and successful businessmen have to ignore Trump's multiple bankruptcies and many failed businesses, including running multiple casinos into the ground, at one point being saved by his father buying over $30 million in chips and not cashing them back in so that Trump could make a required loan repayment. All of the above and below are well known undisputed facts. On the not quite fully proven but almost undoubtedly right page, if Trump had taken his inheritance and deposited it in an unmanaged mutual fund that simply tries to track the S&P 500 by 2016 he would have had at least a couple hundred million more dollars than he actually had which is downright embarrassing for any "genius businessman" or even a mildly successful one.

The "he's one of us" crowd has to overlook that Trump spent his entire career screwing and making money off of working people. Usually without any basis whatsoever, he would withhold payments, dispute invoices, sue for unfinished or poorly done work, all to force hand to mouth contractors and subcontractors, actual real working people, to take cents on the dollar in order to salvage something.

The "we're the real patriots" crowd has to overlook Trump's relationship with Russia and specifically w/ Putin. One can discount all one wants the 2016 election interference claims and still understand that Trump cosied up to America's traditional enemy in ways never before seen in this country's history to the detriment of our national security. Trump may actually be right that if he were president, Putin would not have invaded Ukraine, but the reason for that is that Trump would have given him Ukraine and all of NATO for free. Indeed, it is a widely held view that Putin was encouraged to invade Ukraine because of his perception that Trump had so weakened NATO and the "western alliance" generally.
Last edited by beantownbubba on Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

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