The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

This forum is for talking about non-music-related stuff that the DBT fanbase might be interested in. This is not the place for inside jokes and BS. Take that crap to some other board.

Moderators: Jonicont, mark lynn, Maluca3, Tequila Cowboy, BigTom, CooleyGirl, olwiggum

beantownbubba
Posts: 21745
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:Ok. Bubba I apologize for taking so long to get back to you on this. And thank you for the welcome back. Although I'm not sure how back I am, in this thread I mean, but we'll see how it goes.

I will take these one at a time and just answer them as I see them because on some of these (all?) I just can't say for sure.

"How does one deal with a significant portion of the population who, 3, 10, 20 years ago would have freaked out over Russian meddling in the election and would have recognized it for the attack on the country by a foreign and oppositional power but now don't care because Tump?"

Most of the people I know who voted for Trump, and I know a few as you might imagine, aren't reacting to this in a way that might make more sense to you for one reason, the meddling by Russia gets drowned out by the collusion story and they don't buy the collusion story. That's really it. If you were to ask them if they thought Russia meddled in the election they might surprise you with their answer. But the collusion stuff? Forget it. And that is what has been front and center and getting the most attention of the two parts of the story by far. Why don't they believe the collusion story? Mostly because they don't believe anything CNN or the alphabet news media comes forward with. Now a person could find that hard to understand and might be tempted to chalk it up to one or several of the old standbys when it comes to conservatives (racist,mean, stupid etc) but none of those news outlets have done themselves any favors at least since the Obama campaign in 2008. Bringing up FOX and comparing them is a waste of time too because A). "FOX Lies!" Has been screamed to the point that it doesn't mean anything other than its a talking point to these folks and B) Contrary to popular belief, not all conservatives watch FOX. Probably fewer now than at any point in the last ten years at least. This is not so much about a love of Trump as it is they just don't believe anything those News outlets tell them and they certainly don't believe anything the Democrats say. I think that's how we got there in the Russia issue. It also doesn't help that when Mitt Romney cited Russia as a national security threat in the 2012 debates, he was laughed at by Barak Obama while Obama supporters yucked it up along with those hackish political commedians, Colbert and that lot, only to turn around a few years later and tell them the guy they voted for only won because he colluded with the Russians. I'm not arguing their case except to explain where this comes from and to say that I can at least somewhat see why they feel that way. "Oh now Russia is a threat because you guys lost the election and Trump cheated 'cause the Democrat lap dogs in the media say so? Mmm K. Whatever."


"Or that same group of people thinking it's ok as a strategy and policy to simply declare N. Korea not a threat because Trump?"

Here again, I know a lot of people who voted for Trump. From what I hear from them, this isn't what they think. They just don't think it was bad for Trump to meet with the North Koreans about nuclear disarmament. As far as thinking the North Koreans are no longer a threat and will do just what they say they will do and won't do, I don't know anybody who thinks that. But they didn't get how it was bad for Trump to try for it and absolutely did not get the left acting disappointed or even angry about it. I've heard from more than one person, "They act like they would rather have a nuclear war with North Korea than have something Trump did turn out good". I have to admit, it did sort of come off like that.

"And in my personal opinion worst of all, the same people who claim all kinds of religious motivations and family values and consider themselves simply to be good people, still support Trump even though he is separating kids from parents at the border..."

This one is a little bit like the first one. Number one, they don't believe this exactly what's happening. At least not in a "babies in cages"sort of way. They don't believe these children are being locked in cells and not allowed to reunite with their families. Again, they don't believe anything the alphabet media says and that is, at least in part, the media's own fault for years of Democrat cheerleading. And they sure don't believe anything the Democrats say. Also, they are never going to be for open borders and sanctuary cities. Ever. It's a lot easier to just chalk that up to racism in a blanket sort of way. And for some of them that's all that drives it. But for a lot more of them it's this, they don't believe for one second that the Democrats care about these people who are entering illegally at our southern border. They believe the Democrats see these folks as useful means to an end. They think the Democrats believe that these folks will eventually provide them with a permanent voting majority and it is that and nothing more.

How do you talk to these people? Why should you? I'm not going to tell you that you should but I will tell you that, at least for the Trump supporters that I know, their views aren't quite what are being reported and they aren't driven by stupidity or evil etc. Not to say that none of them are anywhere. I'm just telling you about the ones that I know personally.

How do you communicate with people who simply don't care that the preside t lies to them directly and who simply reverse course when he does literally just like Orwell portrays in 1984? This isn't new is it? Obama lied directly to people. So did Bush. So did Clinton. And on and on and on. I'm not saying that makes it any better. Simply that it isn't new.

Is there any hope in finding a spark of commonality with those people? I think so. Some of them anyway.

I don't know if that helps any but those are the answers as I see them and know them from talking to people that I know.
First and most important, thanks CY for providing serious, direct answers to serious, direct questions. As was quickly proved, I know it's not easy to take this side of the discussion around here but I think it's so necessary and helpful that you do. I really appreciate it and I hope others will be encouraged as well. I'm sure you will understand that my responses are not in the way of debate or argument or objection but simply express my reaction to the views you describe, mostly for the purpose of trying to work things out in my own mind. In any case I recognize that these are not necessarily your views and to some extent you are acting as a messenger for the benefit of the group. Mad respect and appreciation.

I've already hinted at my overall reaction to your post and some of the follow-up: Despair, depression, feelings of helplessness and hopelessness and a real fear that there's no way back from where we are now (and where we're heading at an accelerating rate). I don't see any way to find common ground, build bridges, recognize that we're in this together and need each other, or, bottom line, to live together in a way which allows us to continue to live under some form of democratic republic that resembles the best of what America is and might be.

Just the other day I was reading one version of the very common observation in mysteries and thrillers that the best way to interrogate and break a suspect down is to catch them in one lie. Once you have grabbed on to that lie, the rest is almost inevitable. The same is true in debate, whether it be formal competitive debate, political "debates" or dorm room or family table "discussions." We all do it to some extent and to some extent it's legitimate. But like so much in our internet/social media world it has become distorted beyond recognition: everyone has access to unlimited "resources," unchecked for truth or accuracy, catering to every taste, whim and theory, and everyone who has even the slightest connection to the most outrageous, most extreme viewpoints is saddled w/ the most extreme statements and lies of the purveyors of those viewpoints which undermines the principal and principled arguments being made and in fact undermine the very argument. I see no, and I mean no as in zero, none, nada, way to get out of this loop.

For example, I have no doubt that somewhere out there in internet or fringe tv land, some people have said or are saying that they hope Trump's N. Korean initiative fails. I don't know who those people are or exactly what they're saying, but I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to quote me chapter and verse. The problem is that I don't know, or know of, a single person like that. Every single thing, literally, that I've read or heard about N. Korea starts out w/ either "I hope I'm wrong" or "I hope he succeeds and all this [concerns being expressed] goes away." But if the audience I seek lumps me in w/ unreasonable people who are unpatriotic enough to hope that the president fails in a major diplomatic engagement, there is no chance of me being heard much less persuasive.

I have been ranting and raving about the NY Times since I was in college, generally delivering a message that people I know (assume any stereotypes you like, at least some will be close enough) don't want to hear. So I'm not very popular on the subject. I have ranted about the inaccuracies in the Times, about their stilted priorities that stilt the very nature of how and what news is delivered and about the ways in which the Times often acts as little more than the official news agency of officialdom. So I like to think I have some credibility on the subject of news and news organizations. But it never, ever occurred to me to dismiss as false, fake, lies or what have you, EVERYTHING the Times reports. Yet anyone looking to find mistakes, bias, incorrect assumptions, etc, can find them and once they've found them, that apparently justifies dismissing the entire enterprise. I have no idea how to respond to that other than that it's absurd, which, as we know, is not exactly helpful. Once again, if we can't agree on the basic FACTS and the basic lay of the land, there is NO HOPE of overcoming differences. It's impossible.

I can't even articulate how much I hate the assumption/cliche that the media has liberal bias. This is, of course, stated as fact by many people at many different places along the spectrum. CY, I don't know if you're stating it as a fact, or stating that the people you know believe it's a fact, but either way, historically IT'S JUST NOT TRUE. Study after study after study over a long period of time has shown that major traditional media is overwhelmingly what we used to call rock-ribbed Republican. Today, I don't think we can generalize because the internet - how would one even know what to count or how many to count in trying to make this sort of analysis? Who can even tell what constitutes "major" media anymore? But if we look to traditional media, which still has some influence and until fairly recently in real (as opposed to internet) time dominated the influence game, the statistics are clearer than clear. Think about it for a moment: Who owns most newspapers and TV stations? Rich people or rich, powerful companies. Until fairly recently, most newspapers were locally owned and oriented and the owner/publisher/editor was an influential person in the relevant town/city/county/state. That person most likely belonged to the fancy country club, lived in the most exclusive neighborhood, sent his/her kids to fancy colleges to meet other people like them, etc. That person was 99% likely to be a Republican!!! Sure some of the exceptions are/were exceptionally high profile but they were/are the exceptions!! If I may, it's no different than the similar line that Jews own all the banks, which is often conflated w/ Jews owning the media as well. The facts are completely contrary (these are things that can be counted!!), but that doesn't seem to slow down, much less stop, the constant repetition of these canards because they serve a purpose(s) for the people who repeat them. In the face of the extraordinary challenge which is reporting on Trump, there is no doubt that some of the major media which I would never have characterized as being especially liberal or biased to the left, have moved leftward and become more express in their biases. But that's a new phenomenon and not the basis for the claims about how biased "the media" is in a liberal direction (which is to say that now there may be more examples for that view but the view preceded these changes).

How can people literally not believe that there were babies in cages? Are all the photos doctored? Is all the testimony from all kinds of people w/ all kinds of responsible positions and pristine reputations lies? Seriously? But if one thinks the only two views are "protect the country" and "open borders" I can understand why one might refuse to believe facts that are counter to one's position on the larger issue (that is, the issue is national security, not babies in cages per se). But here's the problem: From where I'm sitting "nobody" thinks open borders are the correct, much less the single, alternative to closed borders. The people I know, the people I know who are up in arms about babies in cages and separated families, want secure borders, too. There might be some disagreement about what constitutes "secure" and how to go about getting there, but I think every single one of those people, including me, would be shocked to learn that advocating on behalf of babies and families being treated in cruel and inhumane ways is a statement that they (or I) believe in open borders. But again, I have no doubt that anyone w/ the desire can go to the internet and find some examples of some people saying exactly that and somehow that demonstrable small fringe stands for the whole. To see this whole episode as an example of Democrats cravenly seeking votes doesn't square w/ any of the known facts (most of those seeking asylum won't get it and if they do they won't become voters for many, many years; even their families already in this country don't vote if they're here illegally). It's just convenient and easy to say when one simply refuses to believe factual reporting and prefers any conspiracy, no matter how outlandish, to the hard, messy and often ambiguous facts of real life.

The recently exploded debate about ICE is another great example. From everything I can tell, the notion to disband ICE originally had NOTHING to do w/ questions of border security (ICE doesn't even work at the borders!!!!!!!). It had to do w/ boring administrative details about how best to structure the parts of Homeland Security that deal w/ immigration and immigrants. A number of responsible people w/in ICE have advocated for moving the agency out of Homeland Security precisely so it won't get caught up in political battles about border security because right now they can't do their job effectively (many state and local politicians won't cooperate w/ them). But is that POV any part of the story on this? Nope. It's all about disbanding ICE = open borders. Again, no doubt somebody(s) somewhere(s) believe this. And if all one does is read headlines, it's undoubtedly easy to leap to the conclusion that this is the issue. But it isn't, or wasn't. Personally I think the Democrats are nuts to make even the perspective on the issue I describe an election issue precisely because it is so easily and predictably distortable beyond all recognition, but is that really how we want to treat seriously proposed policy alternatives?

CY, I agree w/ your analysis of the Russia/collusion thing, but even so it still fits into the structure I'm trying to construct here. Why can't someone believe that the Russians interfered in the election and that such interference is not just bad but a serious threat to our country and also believe that Trump and/or the Trump campaign didn't collude w/ the Russian government? Why does not believing in collusion automatically mean that the Russians didn't do anything or don't constitute a threat? Obviously for at least some people it's more convenient or useful to use the existence of the small, questionable tail to grab the dog and throw it into the river, or under the bus, or whatever metaphor one prefers. Have the Democrats shot themselves in the foot in their approach to this? Of course they have. It's what Democrats do. But the facts remain the facts and facts have consequences. In this case the consequences have not nearly fully played out and guess what? Those consequences will affect all of us in similar, perhaps identical ways. Ready, fire, aim! Not the best strategy.

What does all this mean? Hard to know. I see a lot of fear about a lot of things explaining at least parts of the reactions you describe, CY. As you aptly point out some is also understandably defensive because yes portions of the media and social media have made disagreement about certain issues tantamount to being racist or an otherwise suspect human. Plenty of blame to go around on how that happens or happened and the bottom line is that it has been very counter-productive. So on one side you have people shouting "racist!" and on the other you have people shouting "I don't believe in facts!" Each side has its reasons for doing so and each is tenuously connected to some reasonable factual underpinning but both have gotten totally out of control and have led to, among other things, the phenomenon that both sides believe they can't give an inch even if they're clearly wrong because doing so would undercut their entire belief system, something which could only be a risk in the hyperpartisan, emotionally supercharged, exaggerated lightning speed internet echo chamber environment in which we currently live. And I can't see a way out.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

Zip City
Posts: 17313
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Terrific post (as usual), bubba. No need to go through it point by point, but I do have an idea about the idea that the media (particularly print and national news) as being liberal; my observation is that from roughly Newt Gingrich to now, the conservatives have moved further and further right (pulling the Democrats with them), and as such, the mostly centrist/right-leaning media appears far left from their point of view
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

Zip City
Posts: 17313
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

I found myself reading (and participating in) a thread on Facebook today that epitomizes my frustration with how political discussion goes these days. It gave me serious LJ flashbacks (not necessarily from the specific point of view, but from the tactics exercised by one individual).

My friend Doug posted an article revealing that Trump's Kentucky Campaign Chair has plead guilty to child sex trafficking. One would think that a report of a heinous crime like this is something we can all agree is awful, but no, of course there had to be drama.

I won't quote the entire thread (there's a lot of snarky one-offs in it), but I think the parts I'll share illustrate the problem.

The main offender is a man we will call Robert. I don't know Robert, and I don't know how he knows Doug.

DOUG: Posts article without comment

*a few comments about Trump hiring "only the best", etc.*

ROBERT: Jesus you are in full snowflake melt down mode lately. Should we start sharing the equal number of liberal pieces of shit. Both sides have them

FRIEND: If you aren’t melting down over child sex trafficking then there is something wrong with you.

ROBERT: I agree scum should be burned but left is outrage by his state election connection to trump. Did obama get connected to all the liberal scum who did wrong ? Of course not identity politics and select outrage is the liberal way

**PAUSE** so within two posts, Robert has already thrown out the "snowflake" insult and has gone to "whataboutism" (i.e. you can't point out bad things because your people do bad things too)

DOUG: I'm in full favour of nailing ass-hats like that to the wall, no matter their political stripe. If it's someone connected to Obama, sure, make that connection. I'm ok with that.

ROBERT: I never saw you post any on obama and state Dems or even Weiner. Shocking I know. Lol and meltdown and non logical thought as well as open boarders and socialism are the current liberals. Funny obama was still blaming Bush in year seven of his administration. I am not a trumpster just someone for limited federal government and states rights.

FRIEND 2: Both sides do have them. This is not a political issue, but a humanity issue. I am completely outraged that this kind of person has any connection to the president. Just because outrage wasn't voiced when these issues arose during previous administrations, doesn't mean that it should be silenced now. And shame on us for not raising our voices in outrage EVERY time ANY person representing our country is involved with this kind of disgrace.

Bottom line: good for us showing outrage and taking action now, shame on us for not doing it before.

ROBERT: If only your reasoning was shared by left. It is politics not genuine outrage.

ZIP CITY: Why do you presume to speak for all Democrats?

ROBERT: If I was speaking for all Democrats I would be apologizing for the party and hatred of the constitution and states rights

ROBERT: I am still waiting for Doug’s post about the 30 year old adult assaulting the kids at a restaurant for wearing a trump hat

FRIEND WHO ISN'T HELPING: this guy talking about snowflakes as he gets offended and attacks everyone else’s posts. Hahahahaha. Snowflake

ROBERT: usual liberal logic....or lack of it. I am not offended just calling out liberal bs and hatred. Put on your pink hat and enjoy jobs and economy. Government and political parties are not suppose to control us just allow us to live a life of freedom. I know liberals hate anytime someone does not agree with anything they say. Academia and left has killed so much of what was great about our country


And, well, it goes on like that. Robert insists on bloviating in grand generalities and various straw men, while refusing to listen to anything anyone else says. He takes a news report about a specific incident and turns it into his soap box for everything he hates about liberals.

Such is the state of political discourse in 2018
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

beantownbubba
Posts: 21745
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

"“I have broken more Elton John records, he seems to have a lot of records. And I, by the way, I don’t have a musical instrument. I don’t have a guitar or an organ. No organ. Elton has an organ. And lots of other people helping. No, we’ve broken a lot of records. We’ve broken virtually every record. Because you know, look I only need this space. They need much more room. For basketball, for hockey and all of the sports, they need a lot of room. We don’t need it. We have people in that space. So we break all of these records. Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully, the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.”

- President Donald Trump, July 5, 2018
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

Cole Younger
Posts: 3989
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Bubba I appreciate your taking the time to respond in such a thoughtful and thought provoking way. I have said this before but I think it needs to be said again, more than once you have brought me to the other side of an issue from where I started. That in and of itself proved two things, you are well reasoned and intelligent man who knows how to present his case on a matter (I realize you are an attorney so that's what you do) but also, it just underscores how ineffective screaming at people really is. Part of the reason you are so persuasive is precisely because you don't scream at people and you don't fall into talking down to those with whom you disagree. Amazing what can be accomplished when condescension and sanctimony are left out of it. Fantastic post my man.

I was going to address a few different points that you made but it all went out the window when I came to a particular statement made at the end and I locked into to that and said, "YES!". I'm speaking of this, " Each side has its reasons for doing so and each is strenuously connected to some reasonable factual underpinning but both have gotten totally out of control and have led to, among other things, the phenomenon that both sides believe they can't give an inch even if they're clearly wrong because Doug so would undercut their entire belief system, something which could only be a risk in the hyperpartisan,emotionally supercharged, exaggerated lightning a speed echo chamber environment in which we currently live. "

Bingo! You've articulated in a single sentence what I've argued, less effectively or succinctly, in the majority of my political posts here and other places. Both sides are dug in and will not concede even the smallest of points because to them every point is monumental because their desire is to crush the other side. They both want a country that is monolithic in terms of politics where there is nobody who doesn't agree with them because, hey, they're right about everything and since they are, those other people have to be wrong.

Personally, I do think there is a way out, but it not done through politics or through groups of people. The way out is through the individual and through the individual based on ethics, not politics. Individual people trying their best to do what is right on a daily basis will provide slow but sure progress. It doesn't mean everyone will be the same and that everyone will have the same stuff. But it is a far more reasonable approach than making everything political and everyone joining or i identifying with some group or other. Identity politics has already failed. There is no need to give it anymore time. I'm not saying this will make everything perfect but I do believe it is the road out of where we currently are. People may not be able to agree on politics. But most people can agree on whether an individual thing is right or wrong. For example, two people might fight feverishly over a political issue and which of their two groups is right. But they can agree that forming mobs and beating people who don't agree with you is wrong.

The problem and the solution are both found within the fact there is very little difference between the two sides. The problem there is that ideologues are all the same. The differences between ideologues on right and the left are so small they aren't even worth talking about. Zip's "What if they are a piece of shit?" Statement sounds exactly like something somebody on the ideological right would have said about say, a member of Black Lives Matter.

I think I'm frustrated by that more than any of it. The ideologues on the left truly think they are different from the ones on the right.

The ideologues on the left think they are justified in whhat they do because they say they do it out of compassion for the disposessed and a desire for equality and they do what they do because they are filled with love and kindness. And to them I say, they are no different from their counterparts in the right. The guy holding a protest sign that says, "Down with the one percent" is a member of the one percent himself. But he would tell you that a rich person is whoever has more money than him. What drives these folks is as dark as what drives their opposite numbers on the right. I don't see a lot of love and compassion in groups like antifa. And I don't hear it in the statements of the ideological left. To those folks I say, look inside yourself and be honest about what you see. Because you will probably find there is hatred in there as well and it is most likely more powerful than the love you say you are filled with. Do you care about the poor and love them? Or are you filled with bitterness and anger toward those who are successful or those you think are too successful?

The folks who talk about how compassionate they are become something different altogether when individual members of the group's they say they are shielding and protecting decide they don't want or need their protection. Listen to the language used in and the treatment leveled by these same people toward say, black conservatives, or gay conservatives, or Hispanic conservatives, or conservative women.

Identity politics, ideology, and group think are the enemy of us all.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

Zip City
Posts: 17313
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Since my “what if they are pieces of shit” statement was brought up, I’d like to clarify. I did t mean for it to read as flippantly as it did. I’m not suggesting that people who disagree with me are pieces of shit. I’m saying that the small minority of truly awful people should not get equal time to air their opinions in the goal of fairness.

This guy, for example, can go fuck himself:


ricktylerforcongress.com

Trump saying “there are fine people on both sides” after neo-nazis marched in Charlottesville is a perfect example. There is a time to say “no, your brand of rhetoric no longer gets to play ball anymore”
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

User avatar
cortez the killer
Posts: 15456
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:22 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

Props to bubba for being such an intelligent, thoughtful motherfucker. That's some great stuff written up there.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
- DPM

John A Arkansawyer
Posts: 7894
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:51 am
Location: Little Rock, Arkansaw
Contact:

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

LBRod wrote:
Zip City wrote:Care to share some quotes of political candidates calling people stupid and racist?
Basket of deplorables? Bitter clingers?
Two famous examples! I have trouble coming up with a third, though. And one of those two is not like the other.
You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
I could rewrite that for inner cities instead of small towns, boost the time since the jobs left, and rewrite the part after guns and religion, and get something useful, or better yet, rewrite it to talk about all those abandoned places of empire. Poverty and joblessness grinds everyone down. But as written, this isn't exactly hate speech. If it were a little less specific at the end, it would be unobjectionable.
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic — Islamophobic — you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.
The funny thing is, she's close on the numbers, if the 27% crazification factor has been correctly calculated, which I think it has. And if you assume that all those people are about as bad as the worst of them, which I have some doubts about (since we'd all be dead by now if it were true), though on average it's getting truer over time. Making the "deplorable" (what a word) faction sound bigger and stronger than it is may motivate your side, but when used by Evil people, it also helps motivate non-deplorable Trump voters to become worse. If she'd sharpened her rhetoric and aimed at some arbitrary percentage--"the slithering seven percent of scumbag Trump voters who would let Nazi babysitters put your children into day camps", "the hateful eight percent", even, god help us, "the filthy fifteen percent"--but her eyes have always been bigger than her stomach.

Compare those--both the smart one and the dumb one--to some of the Trump statements. See if there isn't a qualitative difference.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

User avatar
tinnitus photography
Posts: 7251
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:49 pm
Contact:

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

Bubba, you dropped a lot of science in that long and thoughtful post (and thanks for putting in the effort, btw) and this really stuck out to me:
"Just the other day I was reading one version of the very common observation in mysteries and thrillers that the best way to interrogate and break a suspect down is to catch them in one lie. Once you have grabbed on to that lie, the rest is almost inevitable. The same is true in debate, whether it be formal competitive debate, political "debates" or dorm room or family table "discussions." We all do it to some extent and to some extent it's legitimate. But like so much in our internet/social media world it has become distorted beyond recognition: everyone has access to unlimited "resources," unchecked for truth or accuracy, catering to every taste, whim and theory, and everyone who has even the slightest connection to the most outrageous, most extreme viewpoints is saddled w/ the most extreme statements and lies of the purveyors of those viewpoints which undermines the principal and principled arguments being made and in fact undermine the very argument. I see no, and I mean no as in zero, none, nada, way to get out of this loop."
this has pretty much become the de facto strategy when 'debating' alternate views with someone, and i'm certainly not immune to it as well. someone can type out a half dozen strong points that get glossed over and ignored, and the one weak link is the one that's isolated and picked apart.

Zip City
Posts: 17313
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

A vote for Democrats in November is a vote to let MS-13 run wild in our communities, to let drugs pour into our cities, and to take jobs and benefits away from hardworking Americans. Democrats want anarchy, amnesty and chaos - Republicans want LAW, ORDER and JUSTICE!
This is not a quote pulled out of a message board debate or a Facebook thread. This is a tweet from our President. These types of complete and utter lies stated as facts are the backbones of the arguments that we common folk have at work or online. When millions of people follow and believe these tweets, what are we to do? As a liberal, I'm faced with arguing away a stance that no one has.
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

LBRod
Posts: 4362
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:15 pm
Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

Zip City wrote:
A vote for Democrats in November is a vote to let MS-13 run wild in our communities, to let drugs pour into our cities, and to take jobs and benefits away from hardworking Americans. Democrats want anarchy, amnesty and chaos - Republicans want LAW, ORDER and JUSTICE!
This is not a quote pulled out of a message board debate or a Facebook thread. This is a tweet from our President. These types of complete and utter lies stated as facts are the backbones of the arguments that we common folk have at work or online. When millions of people follow and believe these tweets, what are we to do? As a liberal, I'm faced with arguing away a stance that no one has.
Arguing against his tweets is a bad idea. Try ignoring them. They are not laws, regulations, or orders.
Don't hurt people, and don't take their stuff.

Zip City
Posts: 17313
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

LBRod wrote:
Zip City wrote:
A vote for Democrats in November is a vote to let MS-13 run wild in our communities, to let drugs pour into our cities, and to take jobs and benefits away from hardworking Americans. Democrats want anarchy, amnesty and chaos - Republicans want LAW, ORDER and JUSTICE!
This is not a quote pulled out of a message board debate or a Facebook thread. This is a tweet from our President. These types of complete and utter lies stated as facts are the backbones of the arguments that we common folk have at work or online. When millions of people follow and believe these tweets, what are we to do? As a liberal, I'm faced with arguing away a stance that no one has.
Arguing against his tweets is a bad idea. Try ignoring them. They are not laws, regulations, or orders.
But for many, they are truth. So how does one engage with someone whose basis of truth is so distorted? The smart move, I suppose, is to not engage at all, but then you're accused of not engaging. This is a problem on both a micro- and macro- level. How do Democratic candidates, for example, reach out to voters who have a list of things they think about said candidates that simply aren't true? How do you even begin?
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

John A Arkansawyer
Posts: 7894
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:51 am
Location: Little Rock, Arkansaw
Contact:

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

I don't agree with a lot of what's in Cole's reply--we disagree about a lot, so that should come as no surprise--but there's one place where he's right next to what I think is the most important thing:
Cole Younger wrote:Personally, I do think there is a way out, but it not done through politics or through groups of people. The way out is through the individual and through the individual based on ethics, not politics. Individual people trying their best to do what is right on a daily basis will provide slow but sure progress.
I think that's a good start down one of the few paths that offers any hope. I think what Cole is describing there is the ground on which politics is built.

When people seek to treat each other ethically, they are under the constraints that make politics possible. If you're just dividing up the spoils, what keeps you from getting chopped up? Being a quick draw, which will only fail you once. When you're talking about what's good enough for everyone, you've got a foundational share that no one--not even yourself--can negotiate out from under you. Without some level of regard for every person's interests, everyone's ass is up for grabs.

I think this means strengthening the personal bonds among people. In a world where creating opinion is an industrialized process, politics can only be based in actual human interactions. I'm not sure what comes after re-establishing human contact and humane relations with each other, or sure about how to make that happen (though there I do have ideas). I'm sure that's where it starts.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

User avatar
scotto
Posts: 3008
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:09 pm
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Missouri

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by scotto »

I agree with both y'all in theory, but one person's ethical behavior and/or doing what's right is another person's oppression in the name of god, rights suppression in the name or morality, or discrimination in the name of the majority. Unlike facts, "truth" is subjective. I'm sure the "God told me to" crowd feel they're doing the morally right thing. So how do you get to square one when there's not even consensus on "doing the right thing"?

Cole Younger
Posts: 3989
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

scotto wrote:I agree with both y'all in theory, but one person's ethical behavior and/or doing what's right is another person's oppression in the name of god, rights suppression in the name or morality, or discrimination in the name of the majority. Unlike facts, "truth" is subjective. I'm sure the "God told me to" crowd feel they're doing the morally right thing. So how do you get to square one when there's not even consensus on "doing the right thing"?
The idea that it's done through the individual is key I think. People are always emboldened in groups and always behave worse as a result. It's another way of saying be the change that you want to see in the world. I can't stand when groups of people start telling everyone else how they should live, what they can say, etc. I'm not talk ing about forming groups. There has been enough sanctimony all around and ALL of those people need to straighten themselves out before they start trying to fix the world. One of the things I always liked better bout the Democrats was they didn't morralize like the republicans. But they have gotten around to it.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

John A Arkansawyer
Posts: 7894
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:51 am
Location: Little Rock, Arkansaw
Contact:

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Cole Younger wrote:The idea that it's done through the individual is key I think. People are always emboldened in groups and always behave worse as a result.
I'm not sure that's so. Sometimes the emboldening makes people better. Or maybe it frees them to be the better people they are. It can work the other way, too. So does fire. So does a weapon. It's how its used it that matters most. I like something Robert Caro said about LBJ: "Power reveals." He was a better man as President than he had been before, because he was newly capable of doing better things, and spent his power saying, "What the hell's the presidency for?"
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

Zip City
Posts: 17313
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

I'm curious, with the recent discussion of trusting the media, etc.,.....if Robert Mueller announced that his investigation was complete, and he had concluded that Trump had done something illegal (collusion, money laundering, paying for information, whatever), what percentage of American voters would believe him? If he had 100,000 pages of research and evidence, had crossed all his T's and dotted all his I's, and had an air-tight case, how many people would simply cry "FAKE NEWS!"?
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

LBRod
Posts: 4362
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:15 pm
Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

Zip City wrote:I'm curious, with the recent discussion of trusting the media, etc.,.....if Robert Mueller announced that his investigation was complete, and he had concluded that Trump had done something illegal (collusion, money laundering, paying for information, whatever), what percentage of American voters would believe him? If he had 100,000 pages of research and evidence, had crossed all his T's and dotted all his I's, and had an air-tight case, how many people would simply cry "FAKE NEWS!"?
My guess is that you would hear more "what about them?" than "fake news".
Don't hurt people, and don't take their stuff.

Zip City
Posts: 17313
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

LBRod wrote:
Zip City wrote:I'm curious, with the recent discussion of trusting the media, etc.,.....if Robert Mueller announced that his investigation was complete, and he had concluded that Trump had done something illegal (collusion, money laundering, paying for information, whatever), what percentage of American voters would believe him? If he had 100,000 pages of research and evidence, had crossed all his T's and dotted all his I's, and had an air-tight case, how many people would simply cry "FAKE NEWS!"?
My guess is that you would hear more "what about them?" than "fake news".
Sure, there would be a lot of “What about Hilary?” replies.

My greater point is that Trump has been running a bit so subtle smear campaign against the investigation since it started, with the very obvious intent of creating public distrust of the results. He will do it again for the 2020 election (if he makes it that far). As that campaign season starts up, we will hear a daily stream of tweets and quotes where he questions the validity of election results and charges Democrats with vote tampering, voter manipulation and voter fraud. He will have his followers questioning the election results before a single ballot is cast.
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

User avatar
cortez the killer
Posts: 15456
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:22 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

Zip City wrote:
LBRod wrote:
Zip City wrote:I'm curious, with the recent discussion of trusting the media, etc.,.....if Robert Mueller announced that his investigation was complete, and he had concluded that Trump had done something illegal (collusion, money laundering, paying for information, whatever), what percentage of American voters would believe him? If he had 100,000 pages of research and evidence, had crossed all his T's and dotted all his I's, and had an air-tight case, how many people would simply cry "FAKE NEWS!"?
My guess is that you would hear more "what about them?" than "fake news".
Sure, there would be a lot of “What about Hilary?” replies.

My greater point is that Trump has been running a bit so subtle smear campaign against the investigation since it started, with the very obvious intent of creating public distrust of the results. He will do it again for the 2020 election (if he makes it that far). As that campaign season starts up, we will hear a daily stream of tweets and quotes where he questions the validity of election results and charges Democrats with vote tampering, voter manipulation and voter fraud. He will have his followers questioning the election results before a single ballot is cast.
Subtle? Nothing subtle about it, particularly recently.

Trump tweets about the “witch hunt”

May 2017: 3 times
June 2017: 5 times
July 2017: 6 times
Oct 2017: 1 time
Dec 2017: 2 times
Jan 2018: 1 time
Feb 2018: 3 times
March 2018: 2 times
April 2018: 9 times
May 2018: 20 times
June 2018: 27 times
You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
- DPM

Iowan
Posts: 12062
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:00 am
Location: Oneota watershed

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

Zip City wrote:
LBRod wrote:
Zip City wrote:I'm curious, with the recent discussion of trusting the media, etc.,.....if Robert Mueller announced that his investigation was complete, and he had concluded that Trump had done something illegal (collusion, money laundering, paying for information, whatever), what percentage of American voters would believe him? If he had 100,000 pages of research and evidence, had crossed all his T's and dotted all his I's, and had an air-tight case, how many people would simply cry "FAKE NEWS!"?
My guess is that you would hear more "what about them?" than "fake news".
Sure, there would be a lot of “What about Hilary?” replies.

My greater point is that Trump has been running a bit so subtle smear campaign against the investigation since it started, with the very obvious intent of creating public distrust of the results. He will do it again for the 2020 election (if he makes it that far). As that campaign season starts up, we will hear a daily stream of tweets and quotes where he questions the validity of election results and charges Democrats with vote tampering, voter manipulation and voter fraud. He will have his followers questioning the election results before a single ballot is cast.
Just like he had them primed to do in 2016 until he actually won.

I still suspect he won't give up his seat in 2020 if he loses (although I'm not that convinced he'll lose - farm economy struggling doesn't help his cause though)

beantownbubba
Posts: 21745
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

I have this weird feeling that the right and left are merging in their attitudes and just as like charges in a magnet repel each other, each side's reaction to the other is magnified the more it sees itself in the other side.

While the right rails about identity politics, it has clearly adopted white identity politics as a major strategy and even more as an attitude or approach. The left seems to have jumped feet first into the "Damn right I'm angry and I'm gonna indulge that anger" pool by, among other things, being as obnoxious and righteously aggrieved as hell at every opportunity. And like I say, the counter-reactions from the other side when it sees these manifestations of its own behavior ratchet up any and every situation out of all proportion to the underlying event(s). I find this to be a very strange but very compelling (in a I can't take my eyes off of that approaching train wreck sense) change in the political atmosphere. And it scares me in new ways, as if I wasn't scared enough already.

On other fronts, no doubt Trump and his minions have been engaged in a regular and conscious campaign to discredit the media, the special prosecutor and the validity of elections (other than his own, which was accomplished despite massive fraud) from day 1 and that they are doing so to defang and discredit any charges that may be brought or allegations that may be made.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

LBRod
Posts: 4362
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:15 pm
Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

beantownbubba wrote:I have this weird feeling that the right and left are merging in their attitudes and just as like charges in a magnet repel each other, each side's reaction to the other is magnified the more it sees itself in the other side.

While the right rails about identity politics, it has clearly adopted white identity politics as a major strategy and even more as an attitude or approach. The left seems to have jumped feet first into the "Damn right I'm angry and I'm gonna indulge that anger" pool by, among other things, being as obnoxious and righteously aggrieved as hell at every opportunity. And like I say, the counter-reactions from the other side when it sees these manifestations of its own behavior ratchet up any and every situation out of all proportion to the underlying event(s). I find this to be a very strange but very compelling (in a I can't take my eyes off of that approaching train wreck sense) change in the political atmosphere. And it scares me in new ways, as if I wasn't scared enough already.

On other fronts, no doubt Trump and his minions have been engaged in a regular and conscious campaign to discredit the media, the special prosecutor and the validity of elections (other than his own, which was accomplished despite massive fraud) from day 1 and that they are doing so to defang and discredit any charges that may be brought or allegations that may be made.
Amen.
Don't hurt people, and don't take their stuff.

beantownbubba
Posts: 21745
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

This is really long but well worth reading. The author doesn't get everything right (who does?) but he hits a lot more than he misses and he nails the big stuff.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... cy/559130/
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

beantownbubba
Posts: 21745
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Foreign policy is no easy field to master. It is a key element of a president's portfolio and very few have the necessary skills and experience when they arrive in the oval office. So a learning curve is required and a new president should be given the time to get up to speed (if possible, sometimes events dictate otherwise).

But what do we do w/ a president who refuses to learn, who glories in his ignorance? There has always been an isolationist strain in American politics and events consistently prove those folks wrong, yet they persist. So Trump is not alone on that. What does separate him from the pack is his astonishing inability to understand what in fact made America great in the second half of the 20th century, that golden age he would like to return to. What made America great was dominating the world order, serving as the reserve currency, serving as the defender of last (and sometimes first) resort in places near and far and essentially keeping the peace intact (big picture) and the shipping lanes open. The United States made Germany, France, Japan and to some extent the UK what they are today and we did so for OUR benefit (plus of course, being American, we're just really nice guys). The idea that they are ripping us off, taking advantage of us, keeping our economy down is not just wrong, it's bizarre. He's already attacked the status quo in ways that do not seem calculated to reap any benefits for the USA, but if he spends this week pulling the plug on the "western alliance," Germany, France and the others will lose a lot but the US will lose at least as much. The potential for disaster is real (though I can't judge the likelihood) and the way we got here is pretty much insane, or somewhere on the border between irrationality and insanity, or as I like to call it, just plain nuts.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

beantownbubba
Posts: 21745
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Whatever happened to John Kelly? I never see or hear his name mentioned.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

Cole Younger
Posts: 3989
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

beantownbubba wrote:I have this weird feeling that the right and left are merging in their attitudes and just as like charges in a magnet repel each other, each side's reaction to the other is magnified the more it sees itself in the other side.

While the right rails about identity politics, it has clearly adopted white identity politics as a major strategy and even more as an attitude or approach. The left seems to have jumped feet first into the "Damn right I'm angry and I'm gonna indulge that anger" pool by, among other things, being as obnoxious and righteously aggrieved as hell at every opportunity. And like I say, the counter-reactions from the other side when it sees these manifestations of its own behavior ratchet up any and every situation out of all proportion to the underlying event(s). I find this to be a very strange but very compelling (in a I can't take my eyes off of that approaching train wreck sense) change in the political atmosphere. And it scares me in new ways, as if I wasn't scared enough already.

On other fronts, no doubt Trump and his minions have been engaged in a regular and conscious campaign to discredit the media, the special prosecutor and the validity of elections (other than his own, which was accomplished despite massive fraud) from day 1 and that they are doing so to defang and discredit any charges that may be brought or allegations that may be made.
I love this post.
A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

User avatar
Flea
Posts: 4132
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:33 am
Location: Underneath the veneer

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

Cole Younger wrote: The idea that it's done through the individual is key I think.
Yesterday's Doonesbury nails the problem with this approach, I think. Sorry I can't figure out how to post the strip itself, so here's the link.

https://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2018/07/08
Now it's dark.

User avatar
Flea
Posts: 4132
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:33 am
Location: Underneath the veneer

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

beantownbubba wrote:Foreign policy is no easy field to master. It is a key element of a president's portfolio and very few have the necessary skills and experience when they arrive in the oval office. So a learning curve is required and a new president should be given the time to get up to speed (if possible, sometimes events dictate otherwise).

But what do we do w/ a president who refuses to learn, who glories in his ignorance? There has always been an isolationist strain in American politics and events consistently prove those folks wrong, yet they persist. So Trump is not alone on that. What does separate him from the pack is his astonishing inability to understand what in fact made America great in the second half of the 20th century, that golden age he would like to return to. What made America great was dominating the world order, serving as the reserve currency, serving as the defender of last (and sometimes first) resort in places near and far and essentially keeping the peace intact (big picture) and the shipping lanes open. The United States made Germany, France, Japan and to some extent the UK what they are today and we did so for OUR benefit (plus of course, being American, we're just really nice guys). The idea that they are ripping us off, taking advantage of us, keeping our economy down is not just wrong, it's bizarre. He's already attacked the status quo in ways that do not seem calculated to reap any benefits for the USA, but if he spends this week pulling the plug on the "western alliance," Germany, France and the others will lose a lot but the US will lose at least as much. The potential for disaster is real (though I can't judge the likelihood) and the way we got here is pretty much insane, or somewhere on the border between irrationality and insanity, or as I like to call it, just plain nuts.

My prediction: NATO is going to fold, Western Europe will forge a new treaty organization without the US or England, and Putin is going to take over the Baltic States again. Anyone up for a wager?
Now it's dark.

beantownbubba
Posts: 21745
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:52 am
Location: Trying to stay focused on the righteous path

Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Flea wrote:
beantownbubba wrote:Foreign policy is no easy field to master. It is a key element of a president's portfolio and very few have the necessary skills and experience when they arrive in the oval office. So a learning curve is required and a new president should be given the time to get up to speed (if possible, sometimes events dictate otherwise).

But what do we do w/ a president who refuses to learn, who glories in his ignorance? There has always been an isolationist strain in American politics and events consistently prove those folks wrong, yet they persist. So Trump is not alone on that. What does separate him from the pack is his astonishing inability to understand what in fact made America great in the second half of the 20th century, that golden age he would like to return to. What made America great was dominating the world order, serving as the reserve currency, serving as the defender of last (and sometimes first) resort in places near and far and essentially keeping the peace intact (big picture) and the shipping lanes open. The United States made Germany, France, Japan and to some extent the UK what they are today and we did so for OUR benefit (plus of course, being American, we're just really nice guys). The idea that they are ripping us off, taking advantage of us, keeping our economy down is not just wrong, it's bizarre. He's already attacked the status quo in ways that do not seem calculated to reap any benefits for the USA, but if he spends this week pulling the plug on the "western alliance," Germany, France and the others will lose a lot but the US will lose at least as much. The potential for disaster is real (though I can't judge the likelihood) and the way we got here is pretty much insane, or somewhere on the border between irrationality and insanity, or as I like to call it, just plain nuts.

My prediction: NATO is going to fold, Western Europe will forge a new treaty organization without the US or England, and Putin is going to take over the Baltic States again. Anyone up for a wager?
At even odds? What was I saying about just plain nuts? LOL
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

Post Reply