The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

[tinnitus photography]

when a stated position is:

"the vaccine does nothing against the delta variant"


it's really not worth having that conversation any longer. two key takeaways, as if they aren't blindingly obvious:

1 - the vaccine was not developed again the new variants, just the Wuhan variation. mutation has meant the original antibody stimulation is not as effective at preventing infection.

2 - the vaccine clearly mitigates the effects of COVID infection of the delta variant. there is no argument here.

ergo, the original premise is flawed and wrong.

[boyyourself]

when a stated position is:

"the vaccine does nothing against the delta variant"


it's really not worth having that conversation any longer. two key takeaways, as if they aren't blindingly obvious:

1 - the vaccine was not developed again the new variants, just the Wuhan variation. mutation has meant the original antibody stimulation is not as effective at preventing infection.

2 - the vaccine clearly mitigates the effects of COVID infection of the delta variant. there is no argument here.

ergo, the original premise is flawed and wrong.

Wait i thought it got shut down because "people" were attacking each other? No?
Btw Im not the one that said tha t about the vax. It was one of YOUR trusted sourcez.

And of course youre gonna be the one to come on here, write your own story about why the conversation stopped, then keep blabbing.
You were also one of the people who would not stop getting personal with me. You even played therapist. I played your game and posted in other threads. It was fun. Then zip went after me. Then shut the thread?
The attackers also control the convo and wether it even happens. Then claim their own facts. Stop thread.

What a funny little microcosm to whats been going on in the world. All the way down to tinnitus having a financiql stake in the vax and not so ironically wanting to control the info and attack and censor dissenting opinions.

Multiple stories about why covid thread is closed. Classic.
WELL i guess we should close this thread too. Tinnutus is certain about everything from covid to the war on terror, i could probably recite verbatim your stance on the climate, abortion, the border, and ten other things.
Everyone of your posts is a mic drop. According to you.

What did you do different? Nothing. You tracked my posts. Ive owned it everytime i got out of line. Yall have not. Then i started calling zip and john college boys. What should i do when cslled a transhpobe? Take it? E mail the mods? No punishment or even warnings for getting to say anything you want about someone on here? Or is that not cobsidered an attack?

[boyyourself]

when a stated position is:

"the vaccine does nothing against the delta variant"


it's really not worth having that conversation any longer. two key takeaways, as if they aren't blindingly obvious:

1 - the vaccine was not developed again the new variants, just the Wuhan variation. mutation has meant the original antibody stimulation is not as effective at preventing infection.

2 - the vaccine clearly mitigates the effects of COVID infection of the delta variant. there is no argument here.

ergo, the original premise is flawed and wrong.

I am not even disagreeing with anything you are saying about the vax.
Whats your point anyways? That you now need a new vax for every new variant because the old miracle vax doesnt work? Hey some are onto their 5th shot. Safety? Altruism?
And if you are talking about mitigating effects, you are talking to a high risk audience. Or somdone who hasnt had.
Mitigating effects is not an argument at all for those of us that dont mind the potentisl effects.
And the whole notion of vaxing to save others is officially down the river with your old mask.

[beantownbubba]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[beantownbubba]

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

[beantownbubba]

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility--I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it--and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

[beantownbubba]

I have a dream (Yeah) [applause] that my four little children (Well) will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. (My Lord) I have a dream today. [enthusiastic applause]...

And if America is to be a great nation (Yes), this must become true. So let freedom ring (Yes, Amen) from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. (Uh-huh) Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania. (Yes, all right) Let freedom ring (Yes) from the snow-capped Rockies of Colorado. (Well) Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California. (Yes) But not only that: (No) Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia. [cheering] (Yeah, Oh yes, Lord) Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee. (Yes) Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. (Yes) From every mountainside (Yeah) [sustained applause], let freedom ring.

And when this happens [applause] (Let it ring, Let it ring), and when we allow freedom ring (Let it ring), when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city (Yes Lord), we will be able to speed up that day when all of God’s children (Yeah), black men (Yeah) and white men (Yeah), Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics (Yes), will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: “Free at last! (Yes) Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!” [enthusiastic applause]

[beantownbubba]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 2f47ebbc54

[Zip City]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 2f47ebbc54

This seems to be a (to date) unsolvable problem. We've been through decades of R and D presidents, none of whom can figure this shit out

[LBRod]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 2f47ebbc54

This seems to be a (to date) unsolvable problem. We've been through decades of R and D presidents, none of whom can figure this shit out

And congress refuses to get off their asses and pass an actual law about it. Again no matter who is in charge of congress.

[Mundane Mayhem]

Interesting read here.

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2 ... g-context/

[beantownbubba]

Interesting read here.

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2 ... g-context/

Interesting and useful, but reading stuff like this just makes me feel more depressed and hopeless. The magnitude of the task seems to overwhelm the available resources. I do not like the odds. (Which doesn't mean we shouldn't know this stuff).

[beantownbubba]

Interesting read here.

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2 ... g-context/

Speaking of context, I just saw a clickbait ad for an article on the "35 fakest reality shows." While not directly on point to the one made in this linked article I think it does reflect some of the context in which we all live and can't get away from. I mean, we all know that reality shows are fake. We take it as a given. But what the fuck? In how many ways is that screwing with our perceptions and susceptibility?

[Zip City]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 2f47ebbc54

This seems to be a (to date) unsolvable problem. We've been through decades of R and D presidents, none of whom can figure this shit out

And congress refuses to get off their asses and pass an actual law about it. Again no matter who is in charge of congress.

I think it's become an issue like gun control or abortion, where it's too much of a wedge issue for either side to want to actually solve it (because if it's settled, then you can't campaign on it)

[Mundane Mayhem]

when a stated position is:

"the vaccine does nothing against the delta variant"


it's really not worth having that conversation any longer. two key takeaways, as if they aren't blindingly obvious:

1 - the vaccine was not developed again the new variants, just the Wuhan variation. mutation has meant the original antibody stimulation is not as effective at preventing infection.

2 - the vaccine clearly mitigates the effects of COVID infection of the delta variant. there is no argument here.

ergo, the original premise is flawed and wrong.

Btw Im not the one that said tha t about the vax. It was one of YOUR trusted sourcez.

If you’re talking about Dr. Walensky (Pfwalensky?) and CDC, let’s be clear about what they said. This is helpful in terms of making sense of it and also explaining that there are other studies that suggest other conclusions.

Of people with breakthrough infections, viral loads are not lower among the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated.

That does not mean the vaccine does nothing to stop the spread of Delta. Breakthrough cases are still relatively rare (though almost certainly underreported).

Of critical importance, despite similar viral loads in the nose and throat among the infected, very, very few vaccinated people have become seriously ill or died following a breakthrough infection.

The overarching message was that transmission is still mostly driven by the unvaccinated population, and if you become infected, vaccination almost certainly improves your outcomes. This is good news for you in San Miguel County, which as of today has the highest vaccination rate in the state of Colorado at 88.6% of the population over age 12 (this excludes San Juan County where practically no one lives and where the data looks a little funky to me). Must be nice up there in your uber-vaccinated bubble.

Please don’t take that as a personal attack. Just something I found interesting when I was looking at the state data earlier today. Montrose/Olathe is a different story obviously.

It’s certainly not all puppies and rainbows, but let’s be clear about what was found and what it means.

[boyyourself]

when a stated position is:

"the vaccine does nothing against the delta variant"


it's really not worth having that conversation any longer. two key takeaways, as if they aren't blindingly obvious:

1 - the vaccine was not developed again the new variants, just the Wuhan variation. mutation has meant the original antibody stimulation is not as effective at preventing infection.

2 - the vaccine clearly mitigates the effects of COVID infection of the delta variant. there is no argument here.

ergo, the original premise is flawed and wrong.

Btw Im not the one that said tha t about the vax. It was one of YOUR trusted sourcez.

If you’re talking about Dr. Walensky (Pfwalensky?) and CDC, let’s be clear about what they said. This is helpful in terms of making sense of it and also explaining that there are other studies that suggest other conclusions.

Of people with breakthrough infections, viral loads are not lower among the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated.

That does not mean the vaccine does nothing to stop the spread of Delta. Breakthrough cases are still relatively rare (though almost certainly underreported).

Of critical importance, despite similar viral loads in the nose and throat among the infected, very, very few vaccinated people have become seriously ill or died following a breakthrough infection.

The overarching message was that transmission is still mostly driven by the unvaccinated population, and if you become infected, vaccination almost certainly improves your outcomes. This is good news for you in San Miguel County, which as of today has the highest vaccination rate in the state of Colorado at 88.6% of the population over age 12 (this excludes San Juan County where practically no one lives and where the data looks a little funky to me). Must be nice up there in your uber-vaccinated bubble.

Please don’t take that as a personal attack. Just something I found interesting when I was looking at the state data earlier today. Montrose/Olathe is a different story obviously.

It’s certainly not all puppies and rainbows, but let’s be clear about what was found and what it means.

I appreciate the caveat and you looking into stuff like that.
When you say infection rates are mostly driven by unvaccinated people. And thats your message. I am not knocking it nor disagreeing with it.
I dont have anything mic drop worthy to say about anything, or any desire to.
But this vax isnt a miracle and everone should get it? That has obviously proven not to be true, and most of my frustrations from the jump have revolved around how we tried to blanket approach everything for everybody, kids included with sick old people til you had old people dying alone because they might, ya know, die. School closures, social distancing etc. Blanket approaches and shaming to go with non compliance. And none of it has really proving effective. And we still dont talk solutions. I had to listen all last year right here, how dumb southerners are for gathering, its still happening, then watching coverage og Obamas birthday-------hilarious. All that and lifestyle approaches literally become enemy number one. Even more hilarious to watch. Lets get that straight. Dr Mercola was literally on top of Bidens list of covid mis information for touting individual wellness for the last 50 years. Its for our safety right?

So everone wants to still be using infection rate numbers. Isnt it everywhere at this point? And isnt the death rate continuing to slide? What is it anyways?
Yet 70% plus of all covid deaths were obese. Also wouldnt want anyone to know that, probably because of stigma?
70 percent of deaths are obese people. That means youre inflammed. All the time. That means your immune system literally cant be strong. That also means you are way more likely to have serious symptoms. See, that makes me enemy number one.
What happens when you also factor age related deaths?
Regionallly? The lines continue to blur and these blanket approaches to anything just seem more silly over time.

Also comical to see stock rising n95 masks. Great.
Pelaton has also been killing it. Thats all well and good.
I would like to say it does not effect me but i pick masks up everyday. Now we are talking about sturdier, mask. Great. They look cool too. Good thing, its cosmetic theater.
And good for pelaton and anyone who wants to run in place indoors. Easy to predict a bunch of treadmills in the landfill or going for sale in the next couple years.

[boyyourself]

This seems to be a (to date) unsolvable problem. We've been through decades of R and D presidents, none of whom can figure this shit out

And congress refuses to get off their asses and pass an actual law about it. Again no matter who is in charge of congress.

I think it's become an issue like gun control or abortion, where it's too much of a wedge issue for either side to want to actually solve it (because if it's settled, then you can't campaign on it)

Oh so the point you are making, is that the problem is that some are threatened by solutions, because they have a lot to gain by the problem continuing on? And that its likely based on money and power? And therefore they have no interest in solutions? I concur.

[boyyourself]

This seems to be a (to date) unsolvable problem. We've been through decades of R and D presidents, none of whom can figure this shit out

And congress refuses to get off their asses and pass an actual law about it. Again no matter who is in charge of congress.

I think it's become an issue like gun control or abortion, where it's too much of a wedge issue for either side to want to actually solve it (because if it's settled, then you can't campaign on it)

Zip i would like to let by gones with you. We dont have to get along imo, that shouldnt mean devolving into murky waters......what are the rules. What is personal. I am not here to set rules. And i try to not take anything personally, doesnt mean i am going to take it. I'm a hundred percent in favor of disagreements and even ribbing. There is such thing as good natured ribbing. Some other thread went away without a word from you but you used a lot of big words over there, and thread got shut. It wasnt for the greater good. Thats the wrong approach if thats the goal. Imo. I owned what i thought i should own for my part over there and now we are over here i guess. These are all complex issues. Polarizing by default. Fine if you want to be certain. Just dont expect your certainty to go unquestioned. Same goes for me. Its a small effort to not push the convo into the abyss and we should be able to have a little fun with tricky topics. Otherwise someone firez bullets and this thread is shut and we left with set list threads? I doubt we would then just all simply get along.
Grown ups try other things in order to socialize. This is a society. Its not random. Otherwise i wouldnt be here.
Its the only "social media" i am on. Beeeesides youtube.
So i get a lot of info from youtube yes indeed. My algorythm feed would most likely freighten everone,
The spectrum ranges from eco terrorism to Fox News. Neither entity do i support on any level.
And i will refrain from attempting to extoll my thoughts on the border, abortion, and guns, all good with that, except to say i have been in the trenches of those issues my entire life. I only have feelings about them based on what ive lived and observed. Nearly married me a mexican gal once. Was helping her with visa and whatnot. Didnt pan out. So i guess i should say i might have something to say. Got some good stories. And im between farms right now.

[Mundane Mayhem]

I don’t want to import the Covid thread over here (but hey, since I tapped out of that one and stuck to it, I’m getting to share my thoughts on the subject and also keep my word on a technicality).

As others have pointed out over there, the most notable concerted push to help curb obesity and promote healthy lifestyles (at least in my memory) was Michelle Obama’s initiative to promote health among kids. As I recall, the Right lost its collective mind over that. Creeping nanny state socialism.

Of course there are other things that could help. We should look at agriculture subsidies and what foods are artificially cheap and abundant. We should look at addressing food deserts so people aren’t having to feed themselves at convenience stores. We should look at single-payer healthcare ( ) that focuses on prevention and wellness.

But most germane to the topic at hand, these are all long-term challenges, and people are dying in the meantime. Hence people saying “vax first, then we can discuss wellness.” Your response may be that the obese should vaccinate but it isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution, which has a grain of truth but in my opinion misses the larger point and which I have little interest in relitigating in any case.

Here’s an open-ended question: what is the government’s role to play in promoting the kind of holistic health you seem to be in favor of? Personal responsibility is great, but the idea this is going to change spontaneously and organically is fiction. How can the government help people “learn to be healthy” without raising the ire of people like you who distrust it inherently? If the government’s role is to drown itself in the bathtub, who’s gonna lead this charge? Everyone supports wellness. The devil is in the details, or the logistics as the case may be.

[LBRod]

How can the government help people “learn to be healthy” without raising the ire of people like you who distrust it inherently?

It can't. Nor should it. Personal healthcare and lifestyle choices should be none of the governments business.

[Mundane Mayhem]

How can the government help people “learn to be healthy” without raising the ire of people like you who distrust it inherently?

It can't. Nor should it. Personal healthcare and lifestyle choices should be none of the governments business.

This was, of course, going to be your response. And probably boyyourself’s and Cole’s and others’. No surprise. I guess my point is that given the way our society is organized, if the government isn’t involved, I don’t think there’s any feasible way for these types of enormous changes to take root. Which renders “WELLNESS!” a fine idea but a fanciful one. Just one guy’s opinion.

[boyyourself]

I don’t want to import the Covid thread over here (but hey, since I tapped out of that one and stuck to it, I’m getting to share my thoughts on the subject and also keep my word on a technicality).

As others have pointed out over there, the most notable concerted push to help curb obesity and promote healthy lifestyles (at least in my memory) was Michelle Obama’s initiative to promote health among kids. As I recall, the Right lost its collective mind over that. Creeping nanny state socialism.

Of course there are other things that could help. We should look at agriculture subsidies and what foods are artificially cheap and abundant. We should look at addressing food deserts so people aren’t having to feed themselves at convenience stores. We should look at single-payer healthcare ( ) that focuses on prevention and wellness.

But most germane to the topic at hand, these are all long-term challenges, and people are dying in the meantime. Hence people saying “vax first, then we can discuss wellness.” Your response may be that the obese should vaccinate but it isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution, which has a grain of truth but in my opinion misses the larger point and which I have little interest in relitigating in any case.

Here’s an open-ended question: what is the government’s role to play in promoting the kind of holistic health you seem to be in favor of? Personal responsibility is great, but the idea this is going to change spontaneously and organically is fiction. How can the government help people “learn to be healthy” without raising the ire of people like you who distrust it inherently? If the government’s role is to drown itself in the bathtub, who’s gonna lead this charge? Everyone supports wellness. The devil is in the details, or the logistics as the case may be.

Fair points and good questions. I dont know what governments role should be. The other thing is i know so many that live the life I am advocating for. And i see the difference. I know plenty of people, hippies mostly, who never switched from butter to margerine or bought into any of the low fat propoganda that was floated by the fda. Now trans fats are illegal, because they are poisounous, yet they gave them 3 years to take them off the shelves. Too much at stake. So the question i ask is how did we arrive at a place 50 years ago when the fda released that original "food" pyramid, was an entire nation so trusting in what a goverment food orginization had to say that almost literally changed their eating habits simultameously, and what were the cosequences of that? Well, some call this the corn syrup pandemic. Corn syrup is, well, low fat. So is bread. Chips. Soda. Pasta. Oatmeal. Candy. Tortillas. Its also low cholesterol which as it turns out is important.

So how did we reach that point and whats changed?
How does a diet like that effect the soil? Dont get me started unless you want to actually know.

Now we are still supposed to have faith in these agencies?
Better off not it seems to me. They dont give much reason.

And who ever said anything about changing anything spontaneously? Not me. More like the whole mask vax thing was touted as a quick fix, which also unironically explains there lack of sustainabililty pertaining to long term societal wellness. Imo.

I with people all the time on fitness and diet related stuff.
For anyone starting out and wanting to get "in shape" i basically recommend getting on a 4 year plan. Not 4 month. 4 years. So you are not constantly testing and tracking progress. You are trusting the process and the fact that any sustainable model is not trying to yield immediate cosmetic results. Better to trust the process and slowly increase input or implement progressive overload. Same with weightloss or anything youre trying to re wire. Its a process. We have witnessed many trifle with this issue. Tough to re wire. But possible.

So when you say obama tried something and the right freaked out. Ok? Do you remember oprah in the mid eighties saying she would never eat another hamburger? Thats because mad cow disease was going around. Why? The fda decided to grind up dead cattle and feed them to cattle. The cattle market tanked after that. What? So oparah winfrey, in 1980 something, had enough power with people, that when she says she will never eat another hamburger, the beef market nearly crashes? How the fuck does that happen? So the cattlemans association sued oprah. She got to come to Amarillo and everything,
How did we get to a place where so many people are watching daytime fucking tv to where oprah has that kind of power with the people? How the fuck should i know. And what do i care about someone who would sit on their ass and listen to oprah. Let me ask you this. Anyone. I dare you. What has happened to obesity rates since she said that in 1985? What if someone showed her reports of how carbs are the real killer and she said out loud shed never injest another (the human body does not need exogenous carbs) then she lost weight and a whole culture followed? Thats. Not what happened. Fast forward to now. Adele caught all kinds of shit for losing weight. How dare she. She even posted pics of her new better looking better feeling self. How dare she. Becsuse of the stigma and what not. So we shame people for losing weight. Seems like bit of a slippery slope we been sliding down for years.
Its not sustainable. Clearly.
But you have to consider many dont live like that. They just dont trend. Ever. Who cares about being outside and communing with humans and nature and the obvious benefits thereof? Certainly not the news or the cdc or Pfauci or any government agency, gmo grain, amazon, etc. All avoidable imo

[boyyourself]

How can the government help people “learn to be healthy” without raising the ire of people like you who distrust it inherently?

It can't. Nor should it. Personal healthcare and lifestyle choices should be none of the governments business.

This was, of course, going to be your response. And probably boyyourself’s and Cole’s and others’. No surprise. I guess my point is that given the way our society is organized, if the government isn’t involved, I don’t think there’s any feasible way for these types of enormous changes to take root. Which renders “WELLNESS!” a fine idea but a fanciful one. Just one guy’s opinion.

And so you assume my opinion before i can type it out. You asked for nuance and asked a question. Oh but you assume you know my answer? I know what i see. And have experienced. And dont have a mic drop solution. Thats whats cool about having a discussion.

[Mundane Mayhem]

It can't. Nor should it. Personal healthcare and lifestyle choices should be none of the governments business.

This was, of course, going to be your response. And probably boyyourself’s and Cole’s and others’. No surprise. I guess my point is that given the way our society is organized, if the government isn’t involved, I don’t think there’s any feasible way for these types of enormous changes to take root. Which renders “WELLNESS!” a fine idea but a fanciful one. Just one guy’s opinion.

And so you assume my opinion before i can type it out. You asked for nuance and asked a question. Oh but you assume you know my answer? I know what i see. And have experienced. And dont have a mic drop solution. Thats whats cool about having a discussion.

I'm pretty safe to assume you have less faith in government than I do, on this point, and there wasn't a value judgment intended in that statement. If you're arguing with a libertarian, they're probably going to have libertarian perspectives on most issues. If you're arguing with a communist, they'll probably have a class-based analysis to throw at you on most issues. It's more to point out that it's almost an unbridgeable divide on questions like this. It wasn't intended to put words in your mouth, so I'm sorry if that's how it came across.

[boyyourself]

How can the government help people “learn to be healthy” without raising the ire of people like you who distrust it inherently?

It can't. Nor should it. Personal healthcare and lifestyle choices should be none of the governments business.

This was, of course, going to be your response. And probably boyyourself’s and Cole’s and others’. No surprise. I guess my point is that given the way our society is organized, if the government isn’t involved, I don’t think there’s any feasible way for these types of enormous changes to take root. Which renders “WELLNESS!” a fine idea but a fanciful one. Just one guy’s opinion.


There is a scale of wellness to illness that is very real and has some obvious markers.
But to you welness is a fanciful notion because its one guys opinion? Honestly you are one step shy of saying people are healthy at any size. It even has an acronym....HAAS.
People got told that and actually believe it. Why? How is that helpful? Its not its dangerous,
And you shouldnt villify people seeking welness.
Food is like religion. I dont understand where folks get there beliefs or why they believe what they do. T
The question is now what. The question is always now what. Where are the solutions? In medicine? In changing language to soften reality? Truth hurts. Lies destroy. In real time.

[boyyourself]

This was, of course, going to be your response. And probably boyyourself’s and Cole’s and others’. No surprise. I guess my point is that given the way our society is organized, if the government isn’t involved, I don’t think there’s any feasible way for these types of enormous changes to take root. Which renders “WELLNESS!” a fine idea but a fanciful one. Just one guy’s opinion.

And so you assume my opinion before i can type it out. You asked for nuance and asked a question. Oh but you assume you know my answer? I know what i see. And have experienced. And dont have a mic drop solution. Thats whats cool about having a discussion.

I'm pretty safe to assume you have less faith in government than I do, on this point, and there wasn't a value judgment intended in that statement. If you're arguing with a libertarian, they're probably going to have libertarian perspectives on most issues. If you're arguing with a communist, they'll probably have a class-based analysis to throw at you on most issues. It's more to point out that it's almost an unbridgeable divide on questions like this. It wasn't intended to put words in your mouth, so I'm sorry if that's how it came across.

Got it. And what am i? Got a name for me? So quick to dileneate. I think of myself as human. Its how i officially identify maybe thats why i see these divides as totally bridgeable. And they are divides if you make them. Not evrryting has to mesh or be perfectly explained. It aint all black and white otherwise whats the point. Tharts the point.

[Mundane Mayhem]

I don’t want to import the Covid thread over here (but hey, since I tapped out of that one and stuck to it, I’m getting to share my thoughts on the subject and also keep my word on a technicality).

As others have pointed out over there, the most notable concerted push to help curb obesity and promote healthy lifestyles (at least in my memory) was Michelle Obama’s initiative to promote health among kids. As I recall, the Right lost its collective mind over that. Creeping nanny state socialism.

Of course there are other things that could help. We should look at agriculture subsidies and what foods are artificially cheap and abundant. We should look at addressing food deserts so people aren’t having to feed themselves at convenience stores. We should look at single-payer healthcare ( ) that focuses on prevention and wellness.

But most germane to the topic at hand, these are all long-term challenges, and people are dying in the meantime. Hence people saying “vax first, then we can discuss wellness.” Your response may be that the obese should vaccinate but it isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution, which has a grain of truth but in my opinion misses the larger point and which I have little interest in relitigating in any case.

Here’s an open-ended question: what is the government’s role to play in promoting the kind of holistic health you seem to be in favor of? Personal responsibility is great, but the idea this is going to change spontaneously and organically is fiction. How can the government help people “learn to be healthy” without raising the ire of people like you who distrust it inherently? If the government’s role is to drown itself in the bathtub, who’s gonna lead this charge? Everyone supports wellness. The devil is in the details, or the logistics as the case may be.

Do you remember oprah in the mid eighties saying she would never eat another hamburger? Thats because mad cow disease was going around. Why? The fda decided to grind up dead cattle and feed them to cattle. The cattle market tanked after that. What? So oparah winfrey, in 1980 something, had enough power with people, that when she says she will never eat another hamburger, the beef market nearly crashes? How the fuck does that happen? So the cattlemans association sued oprah. She got to come to Amarillo and everything,
How did we get to a place where so many people are watching daytime fucking tv to where oprah has that kind of power with the people? How the fuck should i know. And what do i care about someone who would sit on their ass and listen to oprah. Let me ask you this. Anyone. I dare you. What has happened to obesity rates since she said that in 1985? What if someone showed her reports of how carbs are the real killer and she said out loud shed never injest another (the human body does not need exogenous carbs) then she lost weight and a whole culture followed? Thats. Not what happened. Fast forward to now. Adele caught all kinds of shit for losing weight. How dare she. She even posted pics of her new better looking better feeling self. How dare she. Becsuse of the stigma and what not. So we shame people for losing weight. Seems like bit of a slippery slope we been sliding down for years.
Its not sustainable. Clearly.
But you have to consider many dont live like that. They just dont trend. Ever. Who cares about being outside and communing with humans and nature and the obvious benefits thereof? Certainly not the news or the cdc or Pfauci or any government agency, gmo grain, amazon, etc. All avoidable imo

No, I don't remember this because I was an infant in the mid-80s. I do know that I am barred from donating blood to this day because I was born in and lived in Germany during a time when Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (mad cow) was apparently running rampant and they apparently can't take any chances with my blood.

In terms of why obesity rates have increased, it's a good question. I think it probably has something to do with letting agribusiness set our policy agenda and "inform" our regulatory frameworks. But these things rarely have simple answers. Policy, culture, economics all play a role.

I don't know to what extent anything Oprah did or said actively changed behavior or is causally linked to the decline in the beef market that you describe, but it is an interesting counterpoint about one potential mechanism to change behavior (media) that has little to do with government.

I guess the issue with people living like you advocate is that if we're going to have a "modern" society, cities and towns are seemingly pretty essential, and there's probably not enough land to go around without destroying our wilderness and open spaces. America does have an absolute shitload of land relative to many of its peers, which points directly to an entirely different conversation about settler colonialism and dispossession of Native land that would really derail this thread. Also, land as an economic base that was denied to Black Americans (and actively given to White Americans) was something that MLK, Jr., was talking about at the end of his life as he pivoted from Civil Rights to economic justice issues, but that's also neither here nor there.

Humans developed agriculture, what, 10,000 years ago? Around the time they realized that settling in towns was preferable to hunter-gatherer lifestyles, and that dividing labor such that some people farm while other people cook and make art and play music for a living resulted in, presumably, a higher quality of life in aggregate. I think that horse has left the barn. Which isn't to say people with the space and the means shouldn't grow a garden or raise some chickens or whatever. Hell, "urban gardens" make that more viable even for people who don't have the space or the means. But I don't know that, at scale, "get back to nature" is a workable solution. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Mundane Mayhem]

And so you assume my opinion before i can type it out. You asked for nuance and asked a question. Oh but you assume you know my answer? I know what i see. And have experienced. And dont have a mic drop solution. Thats whats cool about having a discussion.

I'm pretty safe to assume you have less faith in government than I do, on this point, and there wasn't a value judgment intended in that statement. If you're arguing with a libertarian, they're probably going to have libertarian perspectives on most issues. If you're arguing with a communist, they'll probably have a class-based analysis to throw at you on most issues. It's more to point out that it's almost an unbridgeable divide on questions like this. It wasn't intended to put words in your mouth, so I'm sorry if that's how it came across.

Got it. And what am i? Got a name for me? So quick to dileneate. I think of myself as human. Its how i officially identify maybe thats why i see these divides as totally bridgeable. And they are divides if you make them. Not evrryting has to mesh or be perfectly explained. It aint all black and white otherwise whats the point. Tharts the point.

Jesus Christ, can we take it down a notch? I didn't put you into any category and I apologized if it seemed like I was putting words in your mouth. I have seen enough of your thinking to strongly suspect that you would be less amenable than I am to government playing an active role in promoting health and wellness. If that's wrong, then we can talk about it without it being DON'T PUT ME IN A BOX HOW DARE YOU. I'm a lefty on, oh, 98% of issues. You can use that to shorthand how I'm likely to respond if you want. I might surprise you 2% of the time!

[Mundane Mayhem]

It can't. Nor should it. Personal healthcare and lifestyle choices should be none of the governments business.

This was, of course, going to be your response. And probably boyyourself’s and Cole’s and others’. No surprise. I guess my point is that given the way our society is organized, if the government isn’t involved, I don’t think there’s any feasible way for these types of enormous changes to take root. Which renders “WELLNESS!” a fine idea but a fanciful one. Just one guy’s opinion.


There is a scale of wellness to illness that is very real and has some obvious markers.
But to you welness is a fanciful notion because its one guys opinion? Honestly you are one step shy of saying people are healthy at any size. It even has an acronym....HAAS.
People got told that and actually believe it. Why? How is that helpful? Its not its dangerous,
And you shouldnt villify people seeking welness.
Food is like religion. I dont understand where folks get there beliefs or why they believe what they do. T
The question is now what. The question is always now what. Where are the solutions? In medicine? In changing language to soften reality? Truth hurts. Lies destroy. In real time.

One guy=me

I'm not saying there's no such thing as wellness or anything resembling that. Speaking of putting words in people's mouths. I'm saying that without a mechanism to change the behavior of 350 million people (like, perhaps, government, but open to other solutions!), it will remain a fanciful notion.

[Mundane Mayhem]

Unbridgeable divide