The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Iowan
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

305 Engine wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:08 pm
Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:57 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:55 am


So you're saying that my hypothetical presidential candidate can't win w/out 'em while I'm suggesting s/he can't win with 'em. We could both be right which makes for quite the dilemma.

What you say makes sense and I know nothing about Iowa demographics or politics so I couldn't question it anyway. But just on the math, if Trump bringing people out resulted in down ballot candidates out polling Trump, it necessarily means that some people, presumably Republicans, voted for the down ballot candidates but didn't vote for Trump, which I suppose is just another way of restating the previous paragraph.
In a long way, I'm saying the Republican party is an a massive pickle. They can't win without the extra numbers from the Trump-and-only-Trump voters, but as long as Trumpist ideas are out in the open, there's a sizeable portion of their former base that's going to vote for a Democrat president, or not at all. Unless they can bring these lower class/uneducated white people out to vote for more mainstream conservative candidates, they'll never get to have their cake and eat it too like they did in '16.

I have zero issue with this. My hope is that it forces them to move left, or at a minimum dismiss the open embrace of racism/sexism/anger and focus on actual conservative values.
I wont pretend to know more than an actual American but hasnt it been the case for a while that they cant win without voter suppression and gerrymandering?

Looking from outside, the Republicans are a horrible party.
They can't even really win with gerrymandering anymore, at least at the Federal level. That only effects the house of Representatives, and they have almost zero chance of controlling that in the current landscape even with the insane level of gerrymandering that's in place.

The voter suppression thing is losing for them, too. Turn out was super high despite their efforts to make it difficult.

The electoral college, and the subsequent stranglehold they have on rural voters is what keeps the Republicans in play for the President. Because electoral votes aren't completely proportionate to population, they can win a bunch of low population states and get the requisite amount of electoral votes to win the election. If the Democrats could regain some of the rural vote, they could obliterate that too.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:25 pm
If the Democrats could regain some of the rural vote, they could obliterate that too.
As far as i know, the Dems didn't even try to make an issue of Trump's near destruction of the farm economy w/ his easy to win trade war. I would have thoughts there'd be some votes there, but what do I know? If someone could tell me why rural voters don't seem to care about their own health or the health of their loved ones, maybe I could make a case for healthcare being another winning issue for the Dems in rural areas.. Until then I remain totally mystified by how that complex of issues plays out in the politics of rural states. The bottom line is that if that doesn't change it's hard to see a path to Democratic gains in those geographic areas. And forget about education: Rural areas have not exactly made this into the cause celebre I think it should be but I'm not sure the Dems have any great answers, anyway.
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cortez the killer
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:25 pm
305 Engine wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:08 pm
Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:57 pm


In a long way, I'm saying the Republican party is an a massive pickle. They can't win without the extra numbers from the Trump-and-only-Trump voters, but as long as Trumpist ideas are out in the open, there's a sizeable portion of their former base that's going to vote for a Democrat president, or not at all. Unless they can bring these lower class/uneducated white people out to vote for more mainstream conservative candidates, they'll never get to have their cake and eat it too like they did in '16.

I have zero issue with this. My hope is that it forces them to move left, or at a minimum dismiss the open embrace of racism/sexism/anger and focus on actual conservative values.
I wont pretend to know more than an actual American but hasnt it been the case for a while that they cant win without voter suppression and gerrymandering?

Looking from outside, the Republicans are a horrible party.
They can't even really win with gerrymandering anymore, at least at the Federal level. That only effects the house of Representatives, and they have almost zero chance of controlling that in the current landscape even with the insane level of gerrymandering that's in place.

The voter suppression thing is losing for them, too. Turn out was super high despite their efforts to make it difficult.

The electoral college, and the subsequent stranglehold they have on rural voters is what keeps the Republicans in play for the President. Because electoral votes aren't completely proportionate to population, they can win a bunch of low population states and get the requisite amount of electoral votes to win the election. If the Democrats could regain some of the rural vote, they could obliterate that too.
One could make the argument that The Senate is the ultimate gerrymandering.
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305 Engine
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by 305 Engine »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:25 pm
305 Engine wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:08 pm
Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:57 pm


In a long way, I'm saying the Republican party is an a massive pickle. They can't win without the extra numbers from the Trump-and-only-Trump voters, but as long as Trumpist ideas are out in the open, there's a sizeable portion of their former base that's going to vote for a Democrat president, or not at all. Unless they can bring these lower class/uneducated white people out to vote for more mainstream conservative candidates, they'll never get to have their cake and eat it too like they did in '16.

I have zero issue with this. My hope is that it forces them to move left, or at a minimum dismiss the open embrace of racism/sexism/anger and focus on actual conservative values.
I wont pretend to know more than an actual American but hasnt it been the case for a while that they cant win without voter suppression and gerrymandering?

Looking from outside, the Republicans are a horrible party.
They can't even really win with gerrymandering anymore, at least at the Federal level. That only effects the house of Representatives, and they have almost zero chance of controlling that in the current landscape even with the insane level of gerrymandering that's in place.

The voter suppression thing is losing for them, too. Turn out was super high despite their efforts to make it difficult.

The electoral college, and the subsequent stranglehold they have on rural voters is what keeps the Republicans in play for the President. Because electoral votes aren't completely proportionate to population, they can win a bunch of low population states and get the requisite amount of electoral votes to win the election. If the Democrats could regain some of the rural vote, they could obliterate that too.
Good response and summary.

To be clear, when I said gerrymandering I was including the electoral college in that. It's nonsense.

Iowan
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:54 pm
Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:25 pm
If the Democrats could regain some of the rural vote, they could obliterate that too.
As far as i know, the Dems didn't even try to make an issue of Trump's near destruction of the farm economy w/ his easy to win trade war. I would have thoughts there'd be some votes there, but what do I know? If someone could tell me why rural voters don't seem to care about their own health or the health of their loved ones, maybe I could make a case for healthcare being another winning issue for the Dems in rural areas.. Until then I remain totally mystified by how that complex of issues plays out in the politics of rural states. The bottom line is that if that doesn't change it's hard to see a path to Democratic gains in those geographic areas. And forget about education: Rural areas have not exactly made this into the cause celebre I think it should be but I'm not sure the Dems have any great answers, anyway.
Trump chucked subsidies at farmers to literally buy votes from farmers. He didn’t buy this farmer’s vote, but I digress.

Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).

People are fucking complicated.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:02 pm


Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).

People are fucking complicated.
Yes yes yes, we keep hearing this over and over. "Why won't Democrats work to understand us rural folk?"

You know what we never hear? "Why won't rural folk work to understand urban folk?"
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

Zip City wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:51 pm
Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:02 pm


Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).

People are fucking complicated.
Yes yes yes, we keep hearing this over and over. "Why won't Democrats work to understand us rural folk?"

You know what we never hear? "Why won't rural folk work to understand urban folk?"
I wasn't complaining about a lack of understanding for rural people, and you definitely have a point that it should be a two way street.

But in regards to the Democratic Party, they already have the urban vote locked up. They already understand and appeal to urban voters. Their deficit is in rural areas, and it's getting worse. I don't need to be understood by the Democrats, as I vote for Democrats 85% of the time as it is. But I'd like to see the party gain wider appeal.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:02 pm
Trump chucked subsidies at farmers to literally buy votes from farmers. He didn’t buy this farmer’s vote, but I digress.

Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).

People are fucking complicated.
The way I heard it (which is just one version of the story) is that farmers took the money but resented it and prefer to actually farm.

There used to be such a thing as anti-abortion Democrats. That is now a quaint relic of a time gone by, one part of the polarization that is our current lot in life. I can't even begin to suggest how we (as a society) might go about de-polarizing to the benefit of just about everyone.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

As you know, I think Heather Cox Richardson is must reading all the time but I want to particularly flag today's email (dated yesterday). It is less about her usual historical perspective and more a really good summary of the avalanche of events that seem so overwhelming.

It also contains new to me tidbits like Pence keeping Pelosi & Schumer on hold for 25 minutes and then refusing their call and that there is some question about whether the various acting Cabinet secretaries would/should/could vote on a 25th Amendment certification.

Her wry observation that by resigning now certain Cabinet secretaries are avoiding having to take a public stand on the 25th Amendment, much less do anything, is dead on.

And while her punch in the face to Josh Hawley wasn't anything new it is still very satisfying.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

beantownbubba wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:54 pm
Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:25 pm
If the Democrats could regain some of the rural vote, they could obliterate that too.
As far as i know, the Dems didn't even try to make an issue of Trump's near destruction of the farm economy w/ his easy to win trade war. I would have thoughts there'd be some votes there, but what do I know? If someone could tell me why rural voters don't seem to care about their own health or the health of their loved ones, maybe I could make a case for healthcare being another winning issue for the Dems in rural areas.. Until then I remain totally mystified by how that complex of issues plays out in the politics of rural states. The bottom line is that if that doesn't change it's hard to see a path to Democratic gains in those geographic areas. And forget about education: Rural areas have not exactly made this into the cause celebre I think it should be but I'm not sure the Dems have any great answers, anyway.
Iowan, here's a place where it seems to me Biden has done a bad job in picking cabinet members: Tom Vilsack is not a friend of the family farm. Am I wrong?
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:02 pm
Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).
My solution to that is a democratic party that actually, as a united front, supports "universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires". If the Democratic Party had done those things--but three of them don't please major donors, so enjoy the weed, hippie.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

Tom Vilsack was the best governor this state has had in my lifetime. I'm a fan.

The "family farm" that you likely imagine doesn't really exist any more as a stand alone viable economic entity. No one is making a living off 160 acres and subsistence agriculture. Most things that people call corporate agriculture are family owned entities with multiple generations involved and making decisions, and plenty of non-family employees.

Iowan
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:33 am
Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:02 pm
Trump chucked subsidies at farmers to literally buy votes from farmers. He didn’t buy this farmer’s vote, but I digress.

Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).

People are fucking complicated.
The way I heard it (which is just one version of the story) is that farmers took the money but resented it and prefer to actually farm.

There used to be such a thing as anti-abortion Democrats. That is now a quaint relic of a time gone by, one part of the polarization that is our current lot in life. I can't even begin to suggest how we (as a society) might go about de-polarizing to the benefit of just about everyone.
This farmer took the money and resented it. You can't afford to stare a gift horse in the mouth. I'd imagine 80% of grain and livestock farmers in this country voted for Trump.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:33 am
Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:02 pm
Trump chucked subsidies at farmers to literally buy votes from farmers. He didn’t buy this farmer’s vote, but I digress.

Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).

People are fucking complicated.
The way I heard it (which is just one version of the story) is that farmers took the money but resented it and prefer to actually farm.

There used to be such a thing as anti-abortion Democrats. That is now a quaint relic of a time gone by, one part of the polarization that is our current lot in life. I can't even begin to suggest how we (as a society) might go about de-polarizing to the benefit of just about everyone.
why is it that such heavily catholic countries such as France, Italy and Ireland have no issues with legal abortion (albeit Ireland just recently adopting it as law)?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

John A Arkansawyer wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:00 am
Iowan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:02 pm
Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).
My solution to that is a democratic party that actually, as a united front, supports "universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires". If the Democratic Party had done those things--but three of them don't please major donors, so enjoy the weed, hippie.
yep.

and to add another big issue/win to the process of gaining voters would be term limits for Congress, but the self-servers would never agree to that.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by dime in the gutter »

tinnitus photography wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:20 pm
why is it that such heavily catholic countries such as France, Italy and Ireland have no issues with legal abortion (albeit Ireland just recently adopting it as law)?
evangelicals is the answer you seek. highly motivated and organized lobby.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Iowan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:50 am
This farmer took the money and resented it. You can't afford to stare a gift horse in the mouth.
At the risk of beating dead livestock, that was what I was trying to get at. I speculated that having received the money to ameliorate at least the worst of the pain, affected farmers might have felt the freedom to vote against the policy that led to the payments. It sounds like that wasn't much a part of your decision making process but you already lean more Dem anyway. It seems that most GOP leaning farmers didn't reach that conclusion or considered other issues more important.
tinnitus photography wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:20 pm
why is it that such heavily catholic countries such as France, Italy and Ireland have no issues with legal abortion
I assume your question is largely rhetorical but I think it's worth noting that at least in France, the strict line between religion and politics is much more fiercely observed than in the US despite our First Amendment. Catholic politicians in the US like Biden (Ted Kennedy being a previous well known example) who take the "I'm personally opposed but can't impose my religious views on others" approach get an awful lot of shit from institutional Catholicism that does not seem to acknowledge or account for separation of church and state concerns. Strange country, America.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

Zip City wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:51 pm

You know what we never hear? "Why won't rural folk work to understand urban folk?"
Rural folk aren't trying to tell urban folk how to live. They just want to be left alone.
Don't hurt people, and don't take their stuff.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

dime in the gutter wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:34 pm
tinnitus photography wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:20 pm
why is it that such heavily catholic countries such as France, Italy and Ireland have no issues with legal abortion (albeit Ireland just recently adopting it as law)?
evangelicals is the answer you seek. highly motivated and organized lobby.
makes sense.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

I know a lot more Catholics that vote Democrat than any other practicing sect of Christianity, actually.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

Iowan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:23 pm
I know a lot more Catholics that vote Democrat than any other practicing sect of Christianity, actually.
well.... isn't there really just Catholics and Protestants?

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Iowan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:20 am



Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).
Although I agree here, I just question the blind loyalty to abortion and gun issues. Where they LOSING here? The gun control debate has clearly been lost. There are WAY more guns than people in the country and you can basically own anything up to Military grade equipment. What else do you want here? Same with abortion, while it remains the "law of the land", there is essentially no check on local/state restrictions. I'd put abortion in more of the 'barely legal' category.

On these issues, the've won. It pisses me off, but they've won. What the fuck are they actually fight FOR?
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

tinnitus photography wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:34 pm
Iowan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:23 pm
I know a lot more Catholics that vote Democrat than any other practicing sect of Christianity, actually.
well.... isn't there really just Catholics and Protestants?
Don't forget the largest segment, "Christianists". Most people would use the term "Evangelicals", but I think "Christianist" is much more appropriate.
Love each other, Motherfuckers!

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

LBRod wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:00 pm
Zip City wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:51 pm

You know what we never hear? "Why won't rural folk work to understand urban folk?"
Rural folk aren't trying to tell urban folk how to live. They just want to be left alone.
We both know this isn't true
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Mr. B »

pearlbeer wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:37 pm
Iowan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:20 am



Coastal Democrats can’t comprehend how important guns and abortion are to people out here in the middle. It would blow your mind how many people I know that support universal health care, legal weed, campaign finance reform, and taxing billionaires, but absolutely will not vote for legal abortion, stricter gun control, or the “party of riots and looting” (the irony is certainly thick today).
Although I agree here, I just question the blind loyalty to abortion and gun issues. Where they LOSING here? The gun control debate has clearly been lost. There are WAY more guns than people in the country and you can basically own anything up to Military grade equipment. What else do you want here? Same with abortion, while it remains the "law of the land", there is essentially no check on local/state restrictions. I'd put abortion in more of the 'barely legal' category.

On these issues, the've won. It pisses me off, but they've won. What the fuck are they actually fight FOR?

Exactly. And further, on the abortion issue, what will really change? If you live in many sections of the country it is virtual impossible to get an abortion unless you have the opportunity and means to travel hundreds of miles to get one. And if you live in Chicago, Boston or LA, your abortion rights will not be impacted even if Roe v. Wade is overturned unless the Supreme Court does something radical.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

LBRod wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:00 pm
Zip City wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:51 pm

You know what we never hear? "Why won't rural folk work to understand urban folk?"
Rural folk aren't trying to tell urban folk how to live. They just want to be left alone.
I know that's your personal outlook/belief, Rod, but do you think it's a widely shared perspective? I don't.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

Zip City wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:40 pm
LBRod wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:00 pm
Zip City wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:51 pm

You know what we never hear? "Why won't rural folk work to understand urban folk?"
Rural folk aren't trying to tell urban folk how to live. They just want to be left alone.
We both know this isn't true
You don't speak for me.
Don't hurt people, and don't take their stuff.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:15 pm
LBRod wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:00 pm
Zip City wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:51 pm

You know what we never hear? "Why won't rural folk work to understand urban folk?"
Rural folk aren't trying to tell urban folk how to live. They just want to be left alone.
I know that's your personal outlook/belief, Rod, but do you think it's a widely shared perspective? I don't.
Most urban folk don't understand. As to how widely shared the perspective,
how many rural folk do you know?
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

There are many social issues associated with conservative, rural folk that are about telling people what they can and can’t do. That’s not just wanting to be left alone
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

LBRod wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:57 pm
beantownbubba wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:15 pm
LBRod wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:00 pm


Rural folk aren't trying to tell urban folk how to live. They just want to be left alone.
I know that's your personal outlook/belief, Rod, but do you think it's a widely shared perspective? I don't.
Most urban folk don't understand. As to how widely shared the perspective,
how many rural folk do you know?
I know a few. Not enough to be statistically significant. But that's not really the point here. I think we're talking about what rural people want v. what urban people want as expressed in their collective or cumulative political actions/decisions/votes and the people they elect to represent them.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard.

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