The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:12 am
Everything you say about the protections afforded to people in smaller states by the electoral college can be reversed and said about the rules foisted upon big states by smaller states who have outsized say in what decisions are made due to the way the Senate and the EC are structured yet have no clue how people in big cities live or how they want to live. It's a problem. A real big serious problem. A good start would be for everyone to realize the nature of this problem and to work on finding the right balance, which may not be the same balance as made sense to a small group of people in the 18th century (see below).
good point, Bubba and here's an interesting take that shows voter turnout also has an effect on the impact of voters/EC votes:
https://theconversation.com/whose-votes ... lege-74280

Cole, you raise good points but i think that the differences you state between rural/urban are better suited to hash out at the local, county and state level - the fact that every vote in a national election isn't weighted the same is kind of ridiculous.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by 305 Engine »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:12 am

There is a view of American history which says that our history has been the evolution of a bunch of states into a unified nation. The Civil War is often pointed to as the key moment in this evolution but, having eliminated slavery, it was really commercial developments after the Civil War that define our current circumstances. In everything from the establishment of the ICC and the regulation of railroads, to trust busting, to the New Deal to the interstate highway system we have evolved an overriding Federal system that has permitted the unbelievable economic growth of this country. One can compare and contrast the economic development of Europe where the existence of small separate states was a major factor in limiting growth of all the European countries. This was only addressed after WWII w/ the development of the Common Market and eventually the EU.

It is only in the last, say, 20 to 30 years that the downside of this history has become obvious and has come to dominate our politics. For all practical purposes we cannot unwind our economic interdependence so we better figure out a way to balance our other conflicting interests and to protect all the constituencies that need protecting. The path in that direction is at best unclear.
This is pretty much every nation state on the planet though.

America is split in various ways but so are most countries. Regardless of size. America is arguably exceptional in that other large countries have only become one and started achieving prominence (China, Soviet Union...) after a strong dose of authoritarianism but these splits on regional, racial or rural/urban lines are pretty consistent throughout the world.

Generally they only really become an issue when people try to exploit those splits. And, I think that is exactly what has been happening in America, and it's the first thing you need to tackle before mapping out anything else.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

305 Engine wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:25 am
This is pretty much every nation state on the planet though.

America is split in various ways but so are most countries. Regardless of size. America is arguably exceptional in that other large countries have only become one and started achieving prominence (China, Soviet Union...) after a strong dose of authoritarianism but these splits on regional, racial or rural/urban lines are pretty consistent throughout the world.

Generally they only really become an issue when people try to exploit those splits. And, I think that is exactly what has been happening in America, and it's the first thing you need to tackle before mapping out anything else.
At one level you're correct and there are some good insights/lessons to be gained/learned from those comparisons.

At another level I'm not so sure that the similarities withstand close analysis. I think you do not place enough emphasis on the distinction you acknowledge between authoritarian roots and the US experience.

Also, the "American Experiment" of creating a country based on something other than ethnicity/nationality, religion or similar unifying and recognizable cultural glue makes for very different experiences and less similarity than you suggest.

In a similar vein, the conquest of the native peoples in what became the US was a precondition to its formation and evolution, but the natives were both literally and figuratively excluded. When they became states, the culture and enabled population of each state was in important ways American, not an assimilation or forced union of other peoples (Hawaii possibly excepted). Compare and contrast the formation and dissolution of the Soviet Union or, say, Yugoslavia. NB that the history of slavery, emancipation, jim crow and civil rights interacts with the model i'm suggesting in complicated ways. I acknowledge those complications and the exceptions or objections they create but that is far beyond the scope of what I can address here.

I also don't see much similarity between the creation of countries such as Germany or Italy out of smaller nation states and the creation of the US out of smaller colonies and expanding states. The creation of countries by mostly thoughtless or clueless colonial fiat created countries w/ regional, racial or other conflicts but I don't think analogies between the US and those countries can be stretched very far. I'm not sure how China fits into any of this.

I think I'm correct in saying that in all these cases, including China, either before or at the creation of the larger nation, power rested primarily at the federal level and the states got the leftovers (very much top down). In the US the states voluntarily created the federal system and retained much of the power which has only grudgingly been ceded to the federal level over centuries. Beyond that, at least in theory, in the US all power emanates from the people and from there to the states and then to the federal government. This was something new in the world and even today is not a widely implemented concept.

Collectively, these are important distinctions that have large consequences today.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by boyyourself »

Beantown, I appreciate your questions from earlier, I just spent an hour curating a response but it didn't get submitted somehow. That'll teach me.
But trust me it was mostly brilliant with a slice of willful ignorance.
Regarding climate change and personal agency I'll summarize...

I'm all for policy change but I read AOCs green new deal and it was painful to read for how ignorant it is. IMO.
And the notion that all you can do is vote? Not true. There's plenty we can do as people to help foster a healthy eco system and communities at large.

Grow your own food. Even in an urban setting. Building a garden and get some chickens. It ain't hard. The worst thing you can do regarding adding to the local food supply chain, is nothing.
Hang your clothes to dry instead of using electricity. This is huge. I'm talking to you Southern California. It's always sunny, you have no excuse. I hang mine up in my apartment.
Walk or bike instead of driving. Ain't talkin bout e bikes neither. Batteries don't grow on trees and lithium mining is so fucked.
Buy food locally from farmers you trust. Go visit farms They should be transparent in how they operate. If they aren't, buy from someone who is. It doesn't have to me certified organic which is bullshit. Walmart is the biggest buyers of organic because they greased the palms of the certification process.

Amazon packaging, disposable masks, and to go containers are running out of ocean. Please stop using that shit.
Let's talk quick about the pandemic and how the government acts....
Wal Mart remains open while farmers markets get shut down. What in the living hell is that?
McDonald's showing quarterly profit increase. Jeff Bezos is surely about to be a trillionaire, Oh and he owns the Washington Post. Think he benefits from a lockdown? So, where'd ya get your information from huh? I trust science, just not yours. And really I trust the scientific process more so than "science".

And btw I quit paying for health insurance years ago and take zero medication.
Though I did trade some pork for a half pound of weed.
I also traded pork for a painting from a local artist I Gave to my daughter.
I traded pork for beef from a buddy's grass fed operation. I traded for elk my buddy shot. We also mixed it together for sausage. I traded for wild caught Alaskan salmon and cod from a buddy in AK.
I traded for carpentry work from a buddy.
Just trying to be as independent as possible so policy doesn't affect me. And realize that my day to day choices matter a shit ton in the grand scheme of things.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

boyyourself wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:16 pm
But trust me it was mostly brilliant with a slice of willful ignorance.
Regarding climate change and personal agency I'll summarize...
boy, yours is a welcome and needed voice around here. I hope you'll stick around.
Your comments about personal agency as applied to environmental issues and choices is fantastic. Puts me to shame, but fantastic. I salute you as someone who is clearly walking the walk and I will try to up my game in response. We'll see how that goes.

I was wondering how I'd respond if one of you said you didn't have health insurance. I think what I think is that it's crazy in an admirable way, but I'm not sure lol. One thing's for sure: I'll be rooting for your continued good health. I also wonder whether your daughter is covered, perhaps thru her mother? Making that decision for one's self seems legit to me even if scary; making it for someone else is a harder question. Full disclosure: My experiences w/ the healthcare and insurance systems in this country are very much firsthand due to my son's long illness and death. The flaws in the system are endless, but being w/out insurance when my son was sick is an unimaginable nightmare to me. Hell, it was actually a very real nightmare: Virtually every day at Children's Hospital and the Jimmy Fund I saw families struggling, drowning and sick with worry because of medical bills and being forced into making horrible choices that no human being should be forced to make. Needless to say, insured or not I hope you're never in that situation.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Image

If Biden holds MI/MN/WI, he only needs to win NC or PA and its over. Give Trump all of FL, GA, IA....doesn't matter
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by boyyourself »

Dude thanks for the response and the kind words Beantown.
My daughter does in fact have health insurance through her moms work. Which is a non profit orginization and is privately funded. They do great work in the community with low income families and immigrant workers. Mostly illegal.
Try running a restraunt or a house cleaning service in a ski town without the use of undocumented workers. I wouldn't want to. Nobody wants those jobs around here.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Zip City wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:44 pm
Image

If Biden holds MI/MN/WI, he only needs to win NC or PA and its over. Give Trump all of FL, GA, IA....doesn't matter
May be what he needs, ZIP. Because Biden is getting his ass handed to him in Florida right now.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

It’s become socially acceptable to have chickens and grow a garden. We’ve always done it. But before the kewel people decided it was a good idea you were a redneck if you did that.

You’d be surprised how much food a small garden produces. With a bigger one you just about never have to buy vegetables. Maybe doing this is why nobody is ever sick at my house. I mean ever. Learn how to can and you’re really in good shape. I’ve got a skill set that is going to insure that I’m just fine regardless of what everybody else does. I’ve been around and I’ve tried other types of living. I live the way that I do not because I don’t know any better but because I believe it is better.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by phungi »

just coming out from my "lurker" status in this thread to share a brief story:

Homecoming, 2015 (if I recall correctly, whatever was the "I Blame Clams" t-shirt year)
Hanging out waiting for the show to begin, taking with/meeting a bunch people around me, probably 5-7 people deep at the 4-Watt, center stage. Among this group is Cole, and he and I can't be more different, in appearance, background, demographics, etc. I likely learned he is a veteran and he learned I am a professor, and that we both like the Truckers (and even Clams). That said, we jokingly develop what we referred to as the "circle of trust" with a few others (Guinness among them), saving space, etc. In between sets, people start to filter into the open spaces, and a group of 3-4 people show up behind us, and 1-2 of them manage to get in front of us. They are now talking to each other "through" our circle of trust. To say we were pissed is an understatement. In some way, I thought Cole (being way larger than I) would be a natural deterrent to such asshattery, and kinda expected him to set them straight... However, he didn't seem comfortable in the presence of these douchebags, but wasn't budging, either physically or verbally. So, I said to the two "cutters" in front of us something along the lines of "hey guys, you managed to find some good space, but we've been hanging out here all night, and now you are on either side of us and ruining our night... could you two move back and join your friends so we can all enjoy the show"

Cole and I are by no means "friends" and I think we've only seen each other 1-2 more times in Athens, but that night we both came to understand a lot about each other, develop a mutual understanding and appreciation, and also share a really amazing show together that night. I generally lurk in this thread, and have come to appreciate Cole as a "voice of reason" that gives me perspective that I would not otherwise have. I guess I am saying "Cole's a good dude, he's served our country and been in places I would/will never go", and perhaps vice versa. Glad this thread has veered away from what appeared to be a "piling on" of sorts, but just wanted to speak up... after all, we're still in the "circle of trust" and he's my kin.
We got messed up minds for these messed up times...

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:23 pm
It’s become socially acceptable to have chickens and grow a garden. We’ve always done it. But before the kewel people decided it was a good idea you were a redneck if you did that.

I’ve got a skill set that is going to insure that I’m just fine regardless of what everybody else does.
I am really surprised that there are people out there who would ridicule someone for growing vegetables. I can't recall ever hearing anyone saying anything like that, in person or via the internet/social media (which is not to say my memory is totally reliable). Occasionally back in the day boys who were interested in growing flowers might get some stereotypical homosexual shit but that was so long ago it wasn't even not PC to make fun of gay stereotypes. But that's it. I'm sorry your experience is different. Anyway, as far as I know people everywhere love to garden and love fresh veggies (even me as to the latter). Around here, the growing season is short, the land is not the most fertile and plot sizes are generally small so I'm sure the experience is different than in other parts of the country, but everyone either gardens or knows someone who does and everyone wants some of those fresh tomatoes when they're in season, thank you very much.

I personally think self sufficiency is cool. It's not enough (dare I say sufficient?) imho but it is a very good thing and I admire those who aspire to or attain it. If anyone remembers back that far on 3dd or maybe 9B, I used to tell cotter that when the shit comes down I was heading to his place in Wisconsin. He had the guns and he had the food. He could tell me what to do to earn my keep and I would just shut up and do it. I think it was the "shut up" part that had him doubting me.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

boyyourself wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:00 pm
Try running a restraunt or a house cleaning service in a ski town without the use of undocumented workers. I wouldn't want to. Nobody wants those jobs around here.
Part of the contradictions and hypocrisies surrounding our current immigration dilemma. Hard to remember, but it was as recent as the George W administration that there seemed to be a fairly wide consensus in this country on getting control of immigration while treating all the various constituencies more or less fairly. That fell apart and its been downhill (even in the flatlands) ever since.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Cole Younger wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:05 pm
Zip City wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:44 pm
Image

If Biden holds MI/MN/WI, he only needs to win NC or PA and its over. Give Trump all of FL, GA, IA....doesn't matter
May be what he needs, ZIP. Because Biden is getting his ass handed to him in Florida right now.

Florida always felt like a pipe dream to me.

I forgot to include Virginia in that map, which seems semi-solidly a blue state this cycle. Give him VA (and take away NC) and Biden sits at 269.
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:23 pm
It’s become socially acceptable to have chickens and grow a garden. We’ve always done it. But before the kewel people decided it was a good idea you were a redneck if you did that.
It just occurred to me that you may be referring to ridicule of "survivalists." If that's what you mean, then sure there's been and continues to be plenty of that, but to me that's different than what I thought you were talking about. Sorry if I misunderstood.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by pearlbeer »

Love each other, Motherfuckers!

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by boyyourself »

Part of what Cole may be getting at is the Rural vs Urban divide. Which seems quite large. And we are unfortunately programmed to look down upon something we don't understand. My dad never leaves his ranch. Never has. He went to California once. Said he didn't like it. He's a conservative Christian who hates Trump and is one of the least racist people I've ever been around.
I'm thankful looking back that he never pounded racially divisive bullshit into my head. And we always had a Mexican working for us all summer. Serviano Olivias in particular would just show up every spring. How he got there from Chihuahua Mexico I'll never know. Then he'd disappear after grinding it out for the old man all summer. Then parents got divorced in 5th grade and I moved to town. It was about half white kids and half Mexicans in the Texas panhandle. It's more like 80 20 Mexican to white now and my brothers kids are some of the only whit kids in school there. Anyways I discovered quickly that there was bigotry all around me and I had already made fast friends with all the Mexicans because they are fucking cool and tough and they took me in. It pissed me off. And I kinda stayed pissed for about the next 35 years. But I got over it mother fuckers.

To me it sort of helps explain these divides between races or even rural vs urban. It's all completely misguided, and founded on a lack of understanding and an unwillingness to be tolerant of shit you don't understand. So I know who I like to blame, motherfuckers that like to shit up for no reason. If you reLky feel like shaking shit, try getting some chickens and mix their shit with carbon and create compost. Then plant some fucking vegetables. Water them and give them sun. Harvest and eat them with some fresh eggs. Win win

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by boyyourself »

It could be said that if you ain't into sequestering carbon, then you're into carbon emission. But I'm not going to say it.

Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:17 pm
Cole Younger wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:23 pm
It’s become socially acceptable to have chickens and grow a garden. We’ve always done it. But before the kewel people decided it was a good idea you were a redneck if you did that.
It just occurred to me that you may be referring to ridicule of "survivalists." If that's what you mean, then sure there's been and continues to be plenty of that, but to me that's different than what I thought you were talking about. Sorry if I misunderstood.
Bingo.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

phungi wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:55 pm
just coming out from my "lurker" status in this thread to share a brief story:

Homecoming, 2015 (if I recall correctly, whatever was the "I Blame Clams" t-shirt year)
Hanging out waiting for the show to begin, taking with/meeting a bunch people around me, probably 5-7 people deep at the 4-Watt, center stage. Among this group is Cole, and he and I can't be more different, in appearance, background, demographics, etc. I likely learned he is a veteran and he learned I am a professor, and that we both like the Truckers (and even Clams). That said, we jokingly develop what we referred to as the "circle of trust" with a few others (Guinness among them), saving space, etc. In between sets, people start to filter into the open spaces, and a group of 3-4 people show up behind us, and 1-2 of them manage to get in front of us. They are now talking to each other "through" our circle of trust. To say we were pissed is an understatement. In some way, I thought Cole (being way larger than I) would be a natural deterrent to such asshattery, and kinda expected him to set them straight... However, he didn't seem comfortable in the presence of these douchebags, but wasn't budging, either physically or verbally. So, I said to the two "cutters" in front of us something along the lines of "hey guys, you managed to find some good space, but we've been hanging out here all night, and now you are on either side of us and ruining our night... could you two move back and join your friends so we can all enjoy the show"

Cole and I are by no means "friends" and I think we've only seen each other 1-2 more times in Athens, but that night we both came to understand a lot about each other, develop a mutual understanding and appreciation, and also share a really amazing show together that night. I generally lurk in this thread, and have come to appreciate Cole as a "voice of reason" that gives me perspective that I would not otherwise have. I guess I am saying "Cole's a good dude, he's served our country and been in places I would/will never go", and perhaps vice versa. Glad this thread has veered away from what appeared to be a "piling on" of sorts, but just wanted to speak up... after all, we're still in the "circle of trust" and he's my kin.
I take one small issue with that post. I am most certainly your friend. Hope to see you at a show again soon, man. Thanks for the kind words.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

boyyourself wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:16 pm


And btw I quit paying for health insurance years ago and take zero medication.

You may regret that choice when you break a leg or detach a retina.
Now it's dark.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

phungi wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:55 pm
just coming out from my "lurker" status in this thread to share a brief story:

Homecoming, 2015 (if I recall correctly, whatever was the "I Blame Clams" t-shirt year)
Hanging out waiting for the show to begin, taking with/meeting a bunch people around me, probably 5-7 people deep at the 4-Watt, center stage. Among this group is Cole, and he and I can't be more different, in appearance, background, demographics, etc. I likely learned he is a veteran and he learned I am a professor, and that we both like the Truckers (and even Clams). That said, we jokingly develop what we referred to as the "circle of trust" with a few others (Guinness among them), saving space, etc. In between sets, people start to filter into the open spaces, and a group of 3-4 people show up behind us, and 1-2 of them manage to get in front of us. They are now talking to each other "through" our circle of trust. To say we were pissed is an understatement. In some way, I thought Cole (being way larger than I) would be a natural deterrent to such asshattery, and kinda expected him to set them straight... However, he didn't seem comfortable in the presence of these douchebags, but wasn't budging, either physically or verbally. So, I said to the two "cutters" in front of us something along the lines of "hey guys, you managed to find some good space, but we've been hanging out here all night, and now you are on either side of us and ruining our night... could you two move back and join your friends so we can all enjoy the show"

Cole and I are by no means "friends" and I think we've only seen each other 1-2 more times in Athens, but that night we both came to understand a lot about each other, develop a mutual understanding and appreciation, and also share a really amazing show together that night. I generally lurk in this thread, and have come to appreciate Cole as a "voice of reason" that gives me perspective that I would not otherwise have. I guess I am saying "Cole's a good dude, he's served our country and been in places I would/will never go", and perhaps vice versa. Glad this thread has veered away from what appeared to be a "piling on" of sorts, but just wanted to speak up... after all, we're still in the "circle of trust" and he's my kin.

That particular Circle Of Trust was/is me, you, Cole, and Guiness. I think. I was pretty baked, TBH.
Now it's dark.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by 305 Engine »

beantownbubba wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:51 am
305 Engine wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:25 am
This is pretty much every nation state on the planet though.

America is split in various ways but so are most countries. Regardless of size. America is arguably exceptional in that other large countries have only become one and started achieving prominence (China, Soviet Union...) after a strong dose of authoritarianism but these splits on regional, racial or rural/urban lines are pretty consistent throughout the world.

Generally they only really become an issue when people try to exploit those splits. And, I think that is exactly what has been happening in America, and it's the first thing you need to tackle before mapping out anything else.
At one level you're correct and there are some good insights/lessons to be gained/learned from those comparisons.

At another level I'm not so sure that the similarities withstand close analysis. I think you do not place enough emphasis on the distinction you acknowledge between authoritarian roots and the US experience.

Also, the "American Experiment" of creating a country based on something other than ethnicity/nationality, religion or similar unifying and recognizable cultural glue makes for very different experiences and less similarity than you suggest.

In a similar vein, the conquest of the native peoples in what became the US was a precondition to its formation and evolution, but the natives were both literally and figuratively excluded. When they became states, the culture and enabled population of each state was in important ways American, not an assimilation or forced union of other peoples (Hawaii possibly excepted). Compare and contrast the formation and dissolution of the Soviet Union or, say, Yugoslavia. NB that the history of slavery, emancipation, jim crow and civil rights interacts with the model i'm suggesting in complicated ways. I acknowledge those complications and the exceptions or objections they create but that is far beyond the scope of what I can address here.

I also don't see much similarity between the creation of countries such as Germany or Italy out of smaller nation states and the creation of the US out of smaller colonies and expanding states. The creation of countries by mostly thoughtless or clueless colonial fiat created countries w/ regional, racial or other conflicts but I don't think analogies between the US and those countries can be stretched very far. I'm not sure how China fits into any of this.

I think I'm correct in saying that in all these cases, including China, either before or at the creation of the larger nation, power rested primarily at the federal level and the states got the leftovers (very much top down). In the US the states voluntarily created the federal system and retained much of the power which has only grudgingly been ceded to the federal level over centuries. Beyond that, at least in theory, in the US all power emanates from the people and from there to the states and then to the federal government. This was something new in the world and even today is not a widely implemented concept.

Collectively, these are important distinctions that have large consequences today.
Thank you for a lengthy, thoughtful response. The topic of nationhood, it's origins and creation myths is more a thing for a book than a post on a messageboard. I think it usually has far more to do with geography and accident than cultural similarities and ideals (these are things that usually get applied long after the event) but this is the political shitkicking thread not the historical shitkicking thread.

The reason I weighed in, and the point I was trying to allude to, was that a nation's origins and foundation stories are considerably less significant than we tend to imagine. And, reflecting too much on a nation's origins can become a dangerous blind alley.

Countries evolve. If we take France as an example (because I know you enjoyed The Bureau!), however France, or the concept of a French nation state, was first established, it sure as shit is very different now. France is a very diverse nation. Diverse racially and culturally. Certainly very, very diverse on regional lines. But it is united by certain concepts and beliefs (Liberté, égalité, fraternité...) which are taken to be uniquely French. Absolutely none of that other than the regional differences was true when the French nation originated.

Frankly, I would suggest that france today is based on a concept very close to "the american experiment" and its no different to many other countries in Europe and elsewhere. That modern reality of culturally diverse nations with common problems seems very much more relevant to the here and now than how old they are or how they were founded.

If Americans are looking for a way ahead, or to find a way through the woods of current circumstances, it's a profound mistake to believe that the issues faced are new or specifically american. Pick a conflict, and one way or another it's probably been experienced multiple times through history and by multiple nations.

Every nation has splits. Every nation has people that will seek to exploit those splits to further their own agendas. Don't vote for those pricks. That's my original point and I'm sticking with it.

P.S. I really love this thread because it's one of the few places on social media that people can disagree without despising each other. It's really nice.

P.P.S. Strictly speaking, none of this stuff is any of my business because I cant vote in this election anyway. But if my hot political takes are unwelcome I can always go back to making jokes about Trump's mushroom cock.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

i've got the TV on but am listening to Blue Oyster Cult records and drinking excellent New England IPAs.

also, #fucktrumpandhislittlemushroomdick

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Clams »

CNN's John King is to election night as Mel Kiper is to the NFL draft. He's incredible.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

305 Engine wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:32 pm
Thank you for a lengthy, thoughtful response. The topic of nationhood, it's origins and creation myths is more a thing for a book than a post on a messageboard. I think it usually has far more to do with geography and accident than cultural similarities and ideals (these are things that usually get applied long after the event) but this is the political shitkicking thread not the historical shitkicking thread.

The reason I weighed in, and the point I was trying to allude to, was that a nation's origins and foundation stories are considerably less significant than we tend to imagine. And, reflecting too much on a nation's origins can become a dangerous blind alley.

Countries evolve. If we take France as an example (because I know you enjoyed The Bureau!), however France, or the concept of a French nation state, was first established, it sure as shit is very different now. France is a very diverse nation. Diverse racially and culturally. Certainly very, very diverse on regional lines. But it is united by certain concepts and beliefs (Liberté, égalité, fraternité...) which are taken to be uniquely French. Absolutely none of that other than the regional differences was true when the French nation originated.

Frankly, I would suggest that france today is based on a concept very close to "the american experiment" and its no different to many other countries in Europe and elsewhere. That modern reality of culturally diverse nations with common problems seems very much more relevant to the here and now than how old they are or how they were founded.

If Americans are looking for a way ahead, or to find a way through the woods of current circumstances, it's a profound mistake to believe that the issues faced are new or specifically american. Pick a conflict, and one way or another it's probably been experienced multiple times through history and by multiple nations.

Every nation has splits. Every nation has people that will seek to exploit those splits to further their own agendas. Don't vote for those pricks. That's my original point and I'm sticking with it.

P.S. I really love this thread because it's one of the few places on social media that people can disagree without despising each other. It's really nice.

P.P.S. Strictly speaking, none of this stuff is any of my business because I cant vote in this election anyway. But if my hot political takes are unwelcome I can always go back to making jokes about Trump's mushroom cock.
Great stuff, 305. You must have 350 heads on that engine.

You're certainly right that this is a really bad medium to discuss this kind of heavy detailed stuff, but that's because it's heavy detailed stuff, not because of the thread title (who cares, it's close enough) or because you are not welcome (you most certainly are, on general grounds, but for me international perspectives are only one of many perspectives we can use more of here).

Again I think you make a number of good and challenging points but not many that I fully endorse. I sorta agree with you that it's fair to talk about France's foundational event as the Revolution and aftermath, but I would also argue that France is still very much influenced by its founding by the Gauls and its history of monarchy. England is similar. The Magna Carta was a long time ago, and William the Conqueror was even longer ago, but those events continue to resonate, as to stories and myths of Anglos, Saxons and the other merry bands. But having said that, I have to agree with you that focusing too much on origin myths can be a blind alley so I guess as with most things the secret is moderation.

The secret to learning from others' experiences whether those others are individuals or countries is to know which parts are applicable and which aren't. I agree the US much to learn from the experiences, trials and tribulations of other countries but to be useful we need to understand which parts of those experiences are most analogous and which are tangential or counter indicative.

"Don't vote for those pricks" are words to live by and I'm with you 100% there.

Almost inevitably, just about every conversation I have about the development of the US and how best to understand it gets to the point where I ask this question: Have you read Louis Hartz's The Liberal Tradition in America? I haven't read it in many years so the detail has faded but it was profoundly influential on me in college and I still find his basic thesis essential and very relevant to what we're talking about. Very loosely summarized, Hartz says that "the liberal American tradition" starts with the first European settlers who were representative of the evolution of Europe to the mid 1600's so America started far more evolved towards "modernity," and free of much of the baggage of history that continued to exert influence over European societies long after the specifics were no longer relevant (monarchy, class, etc) . Add to that almost unlimited physical space (except for the Natives of course) and America started in a very different place and that has huge consequences even if one wants to say that, for example, modern France began in 1789. Also see Frederick Jackson Turner on the crucial influence of the un and underdeveloped Western American continent and the impact of the "closing" of the frontier (i.e. when the country was fully settled coast to coast). Agree or disagree both are worth your time if you're interested in delving into "the American experience." And of course de Tocqueville is very insightful and written from a European's point of view.

I guess I can't avoid it any longer and have to head back to the TV to see how bad the news is. What a long stressful night.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

i have to laugh when pundits talk about either Biden or Trump not spending enough time in any particular state... what percentage of people go to those rallies whose mind is not made up? i can't believe it matters.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

It's been that kind of night and day I guess.

I could swear that I made my last post some time after 2 am Eastern, well after tinnitus's last post. The board says differently. Anyone else happen to notice or am I just that crazy and disoriented?
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

So it turns out that this nation has about as much soul as a fat, orange, corrupt 73 year old white man trying to dance to a song that he doesn't even know is about gay sex. Hardly worth battling for.

So it turns out that despite Joe Biden's claims to the contrary, and whether Biden wins or loses, this IS in fact who we are as a country. We are a country that kidnaps children. We are a country that puts babies in cages. We are a country that glories in its corruption and celebrates its ignorance. We are a country that sends anonymous storm troopers to attack peaceful citizens. We are a country that can't distinguish between reality tv and reality.

So it turns out that after all the slogans, after all the rousing campaign speech applause lines, after all the endless punditry by an army of clueless pundits, after all the memes, after all the zillions of dollars spent on clever advertising, the state of the nation was best summarized by 9 words uttered by a cartoon character 50 years ago. "We have met the enemy and he is us" said Walt Kelley's Pogo in 1970. That is exactly who we are and it ain't pretty..

(Originally posted on my FB page)
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by John A Arkansawyer »

Biden's ahead in Nevada and Wisconsin. If that holds, any other of those four states* but North Carolina is a win, and North Carolina, god bless it, would be a tie. Lose Wisconsin or Nevada and any two states would be a win or a tie. Lose both of them and any three states would be a win or a tie.

This is certainly not the result I'd hoped for, but I'm not going to throw it out of bed for eating crackers, not while I still have hopes.

*Just assume Alaska goes Republican. It's almost certainly happening and it makes thinking about it easier:

Wisconsin + Nevada = Michigan = Georgia = North Carolina - 1 = 16, so those can be swapped in and out easily. The Anti-Alaska is Pennsylvania, with its weird number of twenty votes. It's interesting that Alaska + Pennsylvania = 23 = 24 -1 = Georgia * 1.5 = Michigan * 1.5 etc, but is of limited thought value.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by 305 Engine »

beantownbubba wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:28 am
So it turns out that this nation has about as much soul as a fat, orange, corrupt 73 year old white man trying to dance to a song that he doesn't even know is about gay sex. Hardly worth battling for.

So it turns out that despite Joe Biden's claims to the contrary, and whether Biden wins or loses, this IS in fact who we are as a country. We are a country that kidnaps children. We are a country that puts babies in cages. We are a country that glories in its corruption and celebrates its ignorance. We are a country that sends anonymous storm troopers to attack peaceful citizens. We are a country that can't distinguish between reality tv and reality.

So it turns out that after all the slogans, after all the rousing campaign speech applause lines, after all the endless punditry by an army of clueless pundits, after all the memes, after all the zillions of dollars spent on clever advertising, the state of the nation was best summarized by 9 words uttered by a cartoon character 50 years ago. "We have met the enemy and he is us" said Walt Kelley's Pogo in 1970. That is exactly who we are and it ain't pretty..

(Originally posted on my FB page)
Despite a highly polarised, emotive situation, this hasn't turned violent.

The turnout has been huge. A lot more people are now engaged with politics and can see the value of the vote.

From what I can tell, at this stage most people can see Trump's attempt to stop votes being counted (FFS) for the bullshit it is.

These are bigger positives than they may seem right now. There's light amongst the FUBAR.

(thanks for the book recommendation, I'll read it)

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