The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

beantownbubba wrote:
Cole Younger wrote:
LBRod wrote:Perhaps there is far too much reliance on "leaders".


Yep.


Too much reliance on leaders? :shock: Either you guys live in a different country than i do or we define terms like reliance and leaders quite a bit differently.


I won't speak for Rod but my meaning is really just a variation on what is essentially the narrative of all my posts in the political thread. This is already being used as grist for political mill and as "proof" that either A whitey really is evil and out to get you just as we told you or B see they're nothing but animals just like we've always told you. It will be used as some sort of opportunity if it can possibly be used as such. I can't excuse what is happening out there on the basis of pent up rage but I do understand why that rage is there. But so called "leaders" on both the national and local levels will do nothing but use this as an issue to inflame and continue to divide. I ain't much but I do know a whole lot more can be accomplished on the race relations front by us rather than those who are supposedly in positions of leadership.

In short, I still believe this is a great country because I still believe that most Americans while not perfect are good people. I think most of our "leaders" are swine.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by LBRod »

beantownbubba wrote:A huge factor here is, as usual, the complete absence of leadership displayed by anyone w/ a hand in the process. The governor, mayor, police chief and prosecutor are apparently just small town folk not ready for the big stage. This is the kind of problem nobody ever mentioned might arise when they were running for office and they're totally unequipped to deal w/ it. The African American community in Ferguson seems to be light on leadership as well. You put incompetent people in charge of potentially violent situations and you get... bad decisions and violence. Can't nobody be surprised by that.

I wonder what it is you think the leaders should be doing? Individuals make choices.
The late Mr Brown, the cop, the rioters, you and I. Every day.
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Zip City
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

It's amazing to me that this story, which is completely apolitical IMO, has lines drawn almost exactly down political lines when it comes to who defends Wilson and who doesn't. The Zimmerman story was the same
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Flea »

Sometimes it's all too depressing to contemplate

Now it's dark.

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Tequila Cowboy
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

LBRod wrote:
beantownbubba wrote:A huge factor here is, as usual, the complete absence of leadership displayed by anyone w/ a hand in the process. The governor, mayor, police chief and prosecutor are apparently just small town folk not ready for the big stage. This is the kind of problem nobody ever mentioned might arise when they were running for office and they're totally unequipped to deal w/ it. The African American community in Ferguson seems to be light on leadership as well. You put incompetent people in charge of potentially violent situations and you get... bad decisions and violence. Can't nobody be surprised by that.

I wonder what it is you think the leaders should be doing? Individuals make choices.
The late Mr Brown, the cop, the rioters, you and I. Every day.


Leaders should set examples and understand that their actions can affect many other actions. Going way back to the summer the leaders in Ferguson could have decided to be open and honest about their investigation and what was going on in an attempt to quell uncertainty and anger. Monday night the prosecutor could have released the grand jury finding at 2:30 in the afternoon instead of leaking it was coming and releasing it at 8:00. Leadership is important because group think, peer pressure, mob mentality and pent up anger do exist. Pretending they don't and saying that it's all about individual responsibility misses the point. We all live in a symbiotic relationship with one another whether we like it or not.

In a more general sense what if our "leaders" condemned the kind of empty rhetoric that's slung all over the place and from all sides of the ideological spectrum? What if the message was we will never move forward as a people if we don't work together? Now before you call me a Pollyanna I'll say this, no I don't think any of that is possible anymore and I think we're all screwed. It should be possible though and I have such a deep sadness over the fact that it's not that some days I don't want to get up out of bed. Then I realize that if I concentrate on myself and Lurleen and our lives as individuals that I can ease that sadness some because in that context life is pretty damned good. The thing is our thoughts should be about all of us together, working side by side to improve the human condition not receding into a bubble of individualism for answers but our "leaders" want this. You think they want every man, woman and child on the same page working together? Yeah leadership matters and it's fucked up, down and sideways.

Here's the thing though, in this fucked up world we all need to be leaders. We need to lead by loving each other. The next time someone says something ugly to you in person turn the other cheek and tell them you understand. Next time something ugly is said online and maybe someone calls you a name don't call them a name back and turn the other cheek. Here we're music geeks and there are all sorts of lessons in music and lyrics that might help when it all feels hopeless. In that context I'll end with this; it's going to be a world of hurt but love is all you need.
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Wolf
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Wolf »

Clams wrote:I'm as liberal as they come, but if you accept the grand jury's findings as read by the prosecutor last night (and I do), I think the shooting was justified.

brown made bad choices. he ended up dead. the cop was in the right. it's not about blacks or whites. the "black community" made it something that it's not
Last edited by Wolf on Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Iowan »

Zip City wrote:It's amazing to me that this story, which is completely apolitical IMO, has lines drawn almost exactly down political lines when it comes to who defends Wilson and who doesn't. The Zimmerman story was the same


I see a lot of liberals who aren't attacking Wilson. There are 3 in this thread alone.

Zimmerman was more political, because the jury's ruling game down to the Florida SYOG law.

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Beebs
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Beebs »

Wolf wrote:
Clams wrote:I'm as liberal as they come, but if you accept the grand jury's findings as read by the prosecutor last night (and I do), I think the shooting was justified.

that brown kid made bad choices. he ended up dead. the cop was in the right. it's not about blacks or whites. the "black community" made it something that it's not


It's not about race but you insist on referring to him as "that brown kid"
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Wolf »

his last name is brown. try again. i edited it so you can understand better

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Clams »

Wolf wrote:his last name is brown. try again

:lol:
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Wolf »

Zip City wrote:
Clams wrote:I'm as liberal as they come, but if you accept the grand jury's findings as read by the prosecutor last night (and I do), I think the shooting was justified.


I do not. The prosecutor is an inept oaf who had no intention of getting an indictment

the cop is guilty of defending himself from a thug bent on getting his weapon and being killed himself

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Iowan wrote:
Zip City wrote:It's amazing to me that this story, which is completely apolitical IMO, has lines drawn almost exactly down political lines when it comes to who defends Wilson and who doesn't. The Zimmerman story was the same


I see a lot of liberals who aren't attacking Wilson. There are 3 in this thread alone.

Zimmerman was more political, because the jury's ruling game down to the Florida SYOG law.


I'm actually not attacking Wilson either but I did think there was enough to bring the matter to trial because that's the proper forum for the facts to be weighed. The most ambiguous part of the evidence presented to the grand jury were those last few seconds and whether or not Brown was charging Wilson or not. I think that needed to be looked at in a jury trial. I have some serious issues with the rush to black and white judgement on both sides and I have issues with the leadership displayed as I spoke about above.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Beebs »

Clams wrote:
Wolf wrote:his last name is brown. try again

:lol:


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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Beebs wrote:
Clams wrote:
Wolf wrote:his last name is brown. try again

:lol:


Always go to the show. Never post before coffee.


Axioms both.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Clams »

are wolf and lonewolf the same person?
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Penny Lane
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Penny Lane »

Iowan wrote:
Zip City wrote:It's amazing to me that this story, which is completely apolitical IMO, has lines drawn almost exactly down political lines when it comes to who defends Wilson and who doesn't. The Zimmerman story was the same


I see a lot of liberals who aren't attacking Wilson. There are 3 in this thread alone.

Zimmerman was more political, because the jury's ruling game down to the Florida SYOG law.



These are not political sides here, Zip. Don't simplify it to make yourself feel righteous. Not everything in life is a Truckers song.

There is a side who cares about what the facts might be and there is a side that rushed to 'black and white judgment'. It's not up to leaders to lead us out of group-think or mob mentality, it's up to us to think for ourselves. Perhaps I did give the cop the benefit of the doubt, BECAUSE HE'S A COP, not because he's white. What about the small business owner he'd just robbed---maybe Wilson saved a life somewhere down the line. I'm not saying that black people shouldn't be angry, I'm not saying that white people aren't privileged, but until WE as a society fix our actions then nothing will change.

And as far as the Grand Jury, they're the only ones who have all the information. It's not up to the justice system to move forward with a trial to quell the social unrest. That's not fair to the person being put on trial---any citizen would deserve that.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Penny Lane wrote:There is a side who cares about what the facts might be and there is a side that rushed to 'black and white judgment'. It's not up to leaders to lead us out of group-think or mob mentality, it's up to us to think for ourselves.


Penny, I'm sorry but that's naive. The vast majority of people don't think for themselves instead following what they're told and where they're led. I would hope that doesn't apply to people here but it is reality.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by tinnitus photography »

Clams wrote:are wolf and lonewolf the same person?

it's a pack.

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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by cortez the killer »

tinnitus photography wrote:
Clams wrote:are wolf and lonewolf the same person?

it's a pack.

The latter seems to contradict that.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Beebs »

cortez the killer wrote:
tinnitus photography wrote:
Clams wrote:are wolf and lonewolf the same person?

it's a pack.

The latter seems to contradict that.


he only comes around for holidays
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by beantownbubba »

Cole Younger wrote:This is already being used as grist for political mill and as "proof" that either A whitey really is evil and out to get you just as we told you or B see they're nothing but animals just like we've always told you. It will be used as some sort of opportunity if it can possibly be used as such. I can't excuse what is happening out there on the basis of pent up rage but I do understand why that rage is there. But so called "leaders" on both the national and local levels will do nothing but use this as an issue to inflame and continue to divide. I ain't much but I do know a whole lot more can be accomplished on the race relations front by us rather than those who are supposedly in positions of leadership.

In short, I still believe this is a great country because I still believe that most Americans while not perfect are good people. I think most of our "leaders" are swine.


LBRod wrote:I wonder what it is you think the leaders should be doing? Individuals make choices.
The late Mr Brown, the cop, the rioters, you and I. Every day.


CY, I think we're saying exactly the same thing. What I was trying to say is that the people we have in leadership positions don't lead. Some are swine, some are "merely" incompetent, but there is a leadership vacuum and we're feeling its effects. Or put another way, it doesn't matter how many leadership titles we have, it's the people that fill those posts that matter and we've got lousy people wearing those title.

Rod, leadership sets the tone and framework for the "micro decisions" that we make every day. Leaders don't make those decisions. 2 versions: One might imagine a world in which effective leadership exercised over time had helped to create an environment in which both Brown and Wilson would have made different decisions. But ok, that's pretty far out there on the pollyanna scale so let's be more realistic. Leadership applied from the time of the initial shooting could and should have had us in a very different place today. You can start w/ ill-trained police playing w/ military toys against real life citizens. You can add in delayed and incompetent reactions from the mayor and governor. You can add in an atmosphere of complete distrust between the governing and the governed which essentially made the last couple of nites inevitable. Apparently, neither community nor government leaders spent the time nor made the effort necessary between the time of the shooting and the announcement that might have led to cooler heads prevailing or more constructive demonstrations taking place. The decision to release the grand jury's decision at nite is one small piece in that chain. An absurd, incomprehensible, unjustifiable and to date to my knowledge unexplained decision.

The American Bar Association, an organization not exactly noted for its firebrand radicalism, came out and essentially said that the grand jury proceedings were a farce. The American Bar Association! Does one need to know anything more to know that government totally failed in its essential functions and that there is a complete absence of leadership from our leaders?
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Beantown, the voice of reason and truth. Excellent post my friend. I agree wholeheartedly.
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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

Bubba we agree way more than we don't as usual. I do agree with Rod that it really comes down to you and me and him and TC and all of us rather than those at the top though. I say this simply because I have absolutely no faith in either of the big two to do anything other than what they do now. Pursue their own interest which is more power.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Duke Silver »

Wolf wrote:http://www.ijreview.com/2014/11/207627-shot-owner-robbed-michael-brown-standing-now-looted-store-shows-side-tragedy/


god help me, i must be desperate to kill time at work today, because i clicked on that dumbass link. anyone who thinks that potato chips on the floor and a broken bakery window is "the other side" of any tragedy is fucked in the head.
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Cole Younger
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Cole Younger »

A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog.

Zip City
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

Well I'm pretty sure that no cop in America would be found guilty for what Wildon did. Shit, the cops who beat down Rodney King were ON TAPE and got away with it.
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Zip City
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Zip City »

And honestly, at this point any racial parts of the story are secondary to how utterly botched the entire thing was, from the day it happened to today.
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Re: The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

Post by Wolf »

Zip City wrote:And honestly, at this point any racial parts of the story are secondary to how utterly botched the entire thing was, from the day it happened to today.

a cop defended himself. a criminal died. that's the story. anything else is fluff. nothin' racial about it

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