This forum is for talking about non-music-related stuff that the DBT fanbase might be interested in. This is not the place for inside jokes and BS. Take that crap to some other board.
Clams wrote:I'm as liberal as they come, but if you accept the grand jury's findings as read by the prosecutor last night (and I do), I think the shooting was justified.
I haven't read it yet, but my gut tells me that this was probably the case.
I'm really trying to just get the facts of this, as much as possible, before really making a stance on it. There's no doubt that racism still pervades our society, and unfortunately, many units of government. But does that mean Michael Brown's shooting was an expression of it? I don't know.
I also just have to shake my head at the inevitable rioting and looting that precedes this. This was basically announced as an excuse to flip shit, and incite violence. What a horrible, horrible strategy. How does this help the existing issues? All it does is provide further for justification for those in positions of power who harbor racist views to say "See? We were right. They are a bunch of animals".
The whole thing is sad, from so many different angles.
You can take racism out of the equation completely and still justify having a trial. At the end of the day, we have one unarmed dead person and a police officer who shot that person. If there ultimately isn't enough evidence to find Wilson guilty, so be it, but at least there was an attempt at justice. Instead, we have the prosecutor basically saying "this isn't even worth our time".
The looting is terrible and unjustified on its face. Nothing good comes from it. But to dismiss the rage and resentment that drive the behavior is missing the point
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever
Clams wrote:I'm as liberal as they come, but if you accept the grand jury's findings as read by the prosecutor last night (and I do), I think the shooting was justified.
I do not. The prosecutor is an inept oaf who had no intention of getting an indictment
That's my feeling too. He presented a case he had no belief in and therefore was unable to successfully do his job. Governor Nixon should have appointed a special prosecutor to vigorously pursue the indictment. He did not and a lot of this is on him. The facts, of which we just aren't privy to enough of, should have gotten a thorough vetting in a trial. Based on only what we've seen in the media I believe there was enough for an indictment. Guilt or innocence are not the stakes in a Grand Jury.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
As far the violence and what's happening this is long simmering rage and frankly if it wasn't this shooting it might have been another one. There's a segment of this population that wants to move on and say that racism is over. it isn't and many of these people feel it and live it. This was pent up rage that was looking for a spark. I can't defend their actions but not understanding them means your head is so far up your ass that daylight is a long way away.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
There's plenty of rage in the black community and plenty of it is justified. But this violence is just bullshit. For all intents and purposes it was pre-meditated, not a spontaneous outpouring and I'd be willing to bet that plenty of the participants know what to say to cover what are simply criminal acts. It's very difficult to see that behavior as any kind of political protest.
I'm pretty much agnostic on the ultimate question of guilt or innocence. I suspect that the truth is somewhat gray - reason for the officer to feel threatened and a predisposition to feel threatened affecting his judgment. But at the 30K foot level I do know a little about the grand jury system. Any prosecutor who can't get an indictment out of a grand jury either had absolutely (and I mean absolutely as in zero) no case or is incompetent. Remember, the standard is far lower than guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Well I guess there's a 3rd possibility which is that the prosecutor affirmatively did not want an indictment. My guess is that it's much more likely that the prosecutor is incompetent or didn't want an indictment than that there was zero evidence. That's pretty fucked up any way you look at it.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard
Tequila Cowboy wrote:As far the violence and what's happening this is long simmering rage and frankly if it wasn't this shooting it might have been another one. There's a segment of this population that wants to move on and say that racism is over. it isn't and many of these people feel it and live it. This was pent up rage that was looking for a spark. I can't defend their actions but not understanding them means your head is so far up your ass that daylight is a long way away.
That's a cop out. Racism is alive and well, but it's not an excuse for this behavior. And this behavior only makes things worse. I just can't sympathize with rioting and looting just to take out pent up rage.
I understand why people are angry. I don't understand why they take their anger out in this fashion. Like bubba said, so much of it seems premeditated.
Last edited by Iowan on Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Clams wrote:I'm as liberal as they come, but if you accept the grand jury's findings as read by the prosecutor last night (and I do), I think the shooting was justified.
I do not. The prosecutor is an inept oaf who had no intention of getting an indictment
That's my feeling too. He presented a case he had no belief in and therefore was unable to successfully do his job. Governor Nixon should have appointed a special prosecutor to vigorously pursue the indictment. He did not and a lot of this is on him. The facts, of which we just aren't privy to enough of, should have gotten a thorough vetting in a trial. Based on only what we've seen in the media I believe there was enough for an indictment. Guilt or innocence are not the stakes in a Grand Jury.
I can get on board with this.
The prosecutor who investigated this should have been from outside the State of Missouri altogether, and someone with some serious credentials.
Clams wrote:I'm as liberal as they come, but if you accept the grand jury's findings as read by the prosecutor last night (and I do), I think the shooting was justified.
I agree with this. 12 Grand jury members, 60 witnesses and 3 medical experts. And as far as I know, the witnesses who said he had his arms up and was running away were quickly refuted by the autopsy. (I don't have TV and this is only from what I've read.) It's not that hard to get an indictment so I don't agree that here the justice system didn't work. If that cop was friend or your relative, you'd want the same justice. And like Clams, I'm pretty liberal, I understand a world and a system that is inherently racist. However, race shouldn't be the only factor here.
I know I sound heartless but this is not like the case in FL at all.
I'm gonna read through this, though, and maybe my opinion will change.
Clams wrote:I'm as liberal as they come, but if you accept the grand jury's findings as read by the prosecutor last night (and I do), I think the shooting was justified.
I agree with this. 12 Grand jury members, 60 witnesses and 3 medical experts. And as far as I know, the witnesses who said he had his arms up and was running away were quickly refuted by the autopsy. (I don't have TV and this is only from what I've read.) It's not that hard to get an indictment so I don't agree that here the justice system didn't work. If that cop was friend or your relative, you'd want the same justice. And like Clams, I'm pretty liberal, I understand a world and a system that is inherently racist. However, race shouldn't be the only factor here.
I know I sound heartless but this is not like the case in FL at all.
I'm gonna read through this, though, and maybe my opinion will change.
"Amazingly enough, people who think young, unarmed black men deserve to die at the hands of police officers have been telling me that really it's because young black men are probably criminals and they've brought this whole mess on themselves. Not that their position says anything about the injustice of the Judge-Dredd-if-You're-Black bullshit that this ruling represents, mind you. If you're black, and you kill someone, you are 8 times more likely to get the death penalty than a white person. Don't feed me the bullshit line that justice is equal it's just that black folks are just so criminal. If you're white, and you roll into a starbucks armed to the teeth, you're a patriot. If you're black, and you roll into a Target with an Airsoft gun, you're a corpse. Don't tell me it's just the way these kids dress. If you're white, and you steal a pair of 90 dollar jeans from the gap, you'll be looking down the barrel of some probation. If you're black, your corpse will bake in the sun for the better part of the day. If you're white, you can punch a cop when he's trying to pull your drunk ass off the girl who done touched your man. If you're black, your mother will get a visit from the police to tell them her baby is dead. White people don't get this. We don't understand this. We can't comprehend just how badly this system is stacked in our favor and stacked against people of color, especially African Americans and those who look like them. Don't tell me it's right or it's fair. It's lynching on a national scale, and so long as someone flashes a picture of a kid in sagging pants or mentions pot in their system, their death was justified. We're a sick, sick nation."
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever
"Amazingly enough, people who think young, unarmed black men deserve to die at the hands of police officers have been telling me that really it's because young black men are probably criminals and they've brought this whole mess on themselves. Not that their position says anything about the injustice of the Judge-Dredd-if-You're-Black bullshit that this ruling represents, mind you. If you're black, and you kill someone, you are 8 times more likely to get the death penalty than a white person. Don't feed me the bullshit line that justice is equal it's just that black folks are just so criminal. If you're white, and you roll into a starbucks armed to the teeth, you're a patriot. If you're black, and you roll into a Target with an Airsoft gun, you're a corpse. Don't tell me it's just the way these kids dress. If you're white, and you steal a pair of 90 dollar jeans from the gap, you'll be looking down the barrel of some probation. If you're black, your corpse will bake in the sun for the better part of the day. If you're white, you can punch a cop when he's trying to pull your drunk ass off the girl who done touched your man. If you're black, your mother will get a visit from the police to tell them her baby is dead. White people don't get this. We don't understand this. We can't comprehend just how badly this system is stacked in our favor and stacked against people of color, especially African Americans and those who look like them. Don't tell me it's right or it's fair. It's lynching on a national scale, and so long as someone flashes a picture of a kid in sagging pants or mentions pot in their system, their death was justified. We're a sick, sick nation."
^^^^^^ none of that has anything to do with what transpired between Brown and the cop during those 90 seconds in Ferguson.
Last edited by Clams on Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tequila Cowboy wrote:I think it has everything to do with it. If Michael Brown were white he wouldn't be dead.
If Michael Brown was white and the cop was white, or Michael Brown was white and the cop was black, we'd never hear about this, either.
Endless platitudes can't take the place of facts. From reading the accounts, this shows a kid (barely a kid, quite bigger than the cop and STANDING whereas the cop was sitting) attacked the police officer in the car and he fired the first shot at close range--meaning he was most likely being attacked. There was enough scuffle so the car was rocking back and forth at least. I implore you to read some of the transcripts and witness accounts--he took off running and didn't seem shot, he stopped and came back (now it's up for debate if he was lunging forward or not but most witness accounts are that his arms were not up and those that say they were--most of the them never said that in initial statements). It's in hindsight that this was a 'kid' and he was unarmed---I don't get firing the other bullets, unless he thought he was armed, and some witnesses said they also thought he was what appeared to be armed.
I must be looking at a completely different situation or something.
Tequila Cowboy wrote:I think it has everything to do with it. If Michael Brown were white he wouldn't be dead.
If Michael Brown was white and the cop was white, or Michael Brown was white and the cop was black, we'd never hear about this, either.
Endless platitudes can't take the place of facts. From reading the accounts, this shows a kid (barely a kid, quite bigger than the cop and STANDING whereas the cop was sitting) attacked the police officer in the car and he fired the first shot at close range--meaning he was most likely being attacked. There was enough scuffle so the car was rocking back and forth at least. I implore you to read some of the transcripts and witness accounts--he took off running and didn't seem shot, he stopped and came back (now it's up for debate if he was lunging forward or not but most witness accounts are that his arms were not up and those that say they were--most of the them never said that in initial statements). It's in hindsight that this was a 'kid' and he was unarmed---I don't get firing the other bullets, unless he thought he was armed, and some witnesses said they also thought he was what appeared to be armed.
I must be looking at a completely different situation or something.
Or you're just looking at the same set of facts the Grand Jury did and aren't assigning motives or using this as an example of the problems in America.
That's the thing. I'm not at all denying that racism is still a huge problem in this country, and the frustrations and anger of the African-American community is legitimate. But from what's out there, I am not convinced that Michael Brown would be alive if he was white.
That said, I am convinced that Trayvon Martin would be alive if he were white.
Penny, I have read the reports and an aggressive prosecutor could have gotten an indictment precisely because of those shots you don't get. My strong hunch is that lethal force could have been avoided. I don't know if Officer Wilson is guilty but none of us will ever know because there will be no trial and that leads to rage.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
so this Brown guy commits a strong arm robbery at a store, a BOLO goes out with Brown's description. shortly after he's confronted by the cop. an altercation ensues and the bad guy ends up dead. nothin' to do with skin color.
Tequila Cowboy wrote:Penny, I have read the reports and an aggressive prosecutor could have gotten an indictment precisely because of those shots you don't get. My strong hunch is that lethal force could have been avoided. I don't know if Officer Wilson is guilty but none of us will ever know because there will be no trial and that leads to rage.
I would imagine there will be a wrongful death trial. It won't be a criminal trial, but it will get more facts brought to light.
I'm as liberal as it gets, and I'm not at on the officer's side (whatever happened to non-lethal force?) but I'm not sure race had anything to do with (the initial shooting) either. From what I understand, a cop was afraid of a big guy who he deemed a threat. In his heart, Brown's skin color may have had something to do with it; I know plenty of white people who are inherently afraid of a black person (at least compared to a white person) but that's not something anyone aside from Wilson himself could ever say for sure. I was in Ferguson last week and talked to some coworkers who've lived there their whole life. Two were black and one was white, all in their mid 40's/early 50's. They all agreed that before this mess, Ferguson was a relatively safe, nice community to live in and were all saddened by the situation. While they didn't necessarily believe the shooting was justified (they, as I do, believe it could've been handled a lot differently and noone had to die; whether or not the reason Mr. Brown is dead was cowardice, racism or just poor training) They believed the racial aspect was blown out of proportion by outsiders with agendas who tried to force a narrative before the facts were out and lamented that their hometown was now ground zero for a racial issue that wasn't clear if it had anything to do with the shooting. I also spoke with some other workers for my company from St. Louis who were excited about the prospect of being involved in riots and looting and obviously didn't give a shit about what this was all supposed to be about. Unfortunately footage of the latter mindset probably brings more viewers in than the former.
There is a major race problem in America (well, anywhere humans reside I guess) that needs to be addressed, I just wish there was a more clear cut catalyst for that to happen and so many innocent people weren't caught in the crossfire. I also wish more people, left or right leaning, would quit making broad generalizations and attacking anyone who doesn't necessarily see it as black and white, because it's far from.
I also gotta say the Ferguson Police Dept after the initial incident and McCullough last night both dropped the ball and made things a lot worse than they could've been. Seriously, wtf were they thinking?
Smitty wrote: I also gotta say the Ferguson Police Dept after the initial incident and McCullough last night both dropped the ball and made things a lot worse than they could've been. Seriously, wtf were they thinking?
A huge factor here is, as usual, the complete absence of leadership displayed by anyone w/ a hand in the process. The governor, mayor, police chief and prosecutor are apparently just small town folk not ready for the big stage. This is the kind of problem nobody ever mentioned might arise when they were running for office and they're totally unequipped to deal w/ it. The African American community in Ferguson seems to be light on leadership as well. You put incompetent people in charge of potentially violent situations and you get... bad decisions and violence. Can't nobody be surprised by that.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard
Smitty wrote:I also gotta say the Ferguson Police Dept after the initial incident and McCullough last night both dropped the ball and made things a lot worse than they could've been. Seriously, wtf were they thinking?
beantownbubba wrote:A huge factor here is, as usual, the complete absence of leadership displayed by anyone w/ a hand in the process. The governor, mayor, police chief and prosecutor are apparently just small town folk not ready for the big stage. This is the kind of problem nobody ever mentioned might arise when they were running for office and they're totally unequipped to deal w/ it. The African American community in Ferguson seems to be light on leadership as well. You put incompetent people in charge of potentially violent situations and you get... bad decisions and violence. Can't nobody be surprised by that.
Yes and yes. This was a shit show from every angle. Did outside forces make it worse? Oh yeah. Could leadership and transparency have made it better. Emphatically yes.
However, all we're doing right now is pointing fingers at each other and calling each other names. How do we get past that? I'm at the point where I don't think we can.
Oh, and a man is still dead and I will always believe that didn't have to happen.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
BTW, while i do not keep trick of all the ins and outs of washington my guess is that we're seeing/experiencing the opposite of "Nixon was the only one who could go to China." I'm guessing that Obama is feeling very constrained about what he can say and do. Seriously, try writing his speech for him, from any perspective you choose.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard
beantownbubba wrote: I'm guessing that Obama is feeling very constrained about what he can say and do. Seriously, try writing his speech for him, from any perspective you choose.
he could just recycle the trayvon martin speech....or a recent school shooting.....or some dude going postal.
LBRod wrote:Perhaps there is far too much reliance on "leaders".
Yep.
Too much reliance on leaders? Either you guys live in a different country than i do or we define terms like reliance and leaders quite a bit differently.
What used to be is gone and what ought to be ought not to be so hard
Either you guys live in a different country than i do or we define terms like reliance and leaders quite a bit differently.