The Neverending Thread for Political Shit

[allisonsdc]

Another fatal police shooting at 12:30pm today. This guy was armed, but you'd think with all that's going on the police wouldn't be shooting to kill... at least not at the moment.

St. Louis police fatally shoot man who brandished knife

[Lone Wolf1]

Another fatal police shooting at 12:30pm today. This guy was armed, but you'd think with all that's going on the police wouldn't be shooting to kill... at least not at the moment.

St. Louis police fatally shoot man who brandished knife

totally justified

[Tequila Cowboy]

Another fatal police shooting at 12:30pm today. This guy was armed, but you'd think with all that's going on the police wouldn't be shooting to kill... at least not at the moment.

St. Louis police fatally shoot man who brandished knife

totally justified

I'm certain it was. It appears to be "suicide by cop". It's not going to help the situation though.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Another fatal police shooting at 12:30pm today. This guy was armed, but you'd think with all that's going on the police wouldn't be shooting to kill... at least not at the moment.

St. Louis police fatally shoot man who brandished knife

totally justified

I'm certain it was. It appears to be "suicide by cop". It's not going to help the situation though.

I'm not so sure about what either of you say. It sounded more like mental illness than "suicide by cop" and I bet some history supporting that comes out. Now, guys with knives are a lot more dangerous than people take them to be, so I was inclined to give the cops some slack on this. Then I read that one had left their car to confront him, then they both shot him when he approached the car. If he was approaching the cop who was on foot, that'd be different. I might call this "acceptable", but "totally justified" is further than I'd go, and some patience might've solved this without killing.

On the other hand, most cops aren't given (in my partially-but-maybe-not-fully-informed opinion) sufficient training in dealing with the mentally ill, and these things happen awful fast. If the cop got out of his car unwisely and ended up with his life in jeopardy as a result, he doesn't deserve to die for it. If I'm going to say that regular citizens shouldn't die for mistakes or foolish actions, then I have to be consistent and say that police citizens shouldn't die for them, either. There needs to be a good review of this with an eye toward not getting anyone killed next time, though.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Of course he was mentally ill. From all reports that's obvious. It seems they tried to talk him down then he said this:

The chief said that the officers repeatedly ordered the man to drop the knife and drew their weapons after he did not drop it. The chief said the man told the police: “Shoot me now. Kill me now.”

It's pretty clear the man wanted die, ill or not, and by charging at the police he made that happen. By my understanding that is classic "suicide by cop" and frankly I think suicide itself is a symptom of mental illness. Trust me I know a little about that aspect. To be honest I would think that in light of recent events these cops would have tried another tactic than shooting him but it happened very fast and they went with their training. Nothing seems amiss here, although I suppose I could be wrong, but it is tragic and I think police in that area might start having to do some out of the box thinking in order to ease tensions.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Of course he was mentally ill. From all reports that's obvious. It seems they tried to talk him down then he said this:

The chief said that the officers repeatedly ordered the man to drop the knife and drew their weapons after he did not drop it. The chief said the man told the police: “Shoot me now. Kill me now.”

It's pretty clear the man wanted die, ill or not, and by charging at the police he made that happen. By my understanding that is classic "suicide by cop" and frankly I think suicide itself is a symptom of mental illness. Trust me I know a little about that aspect. To be honest I would think that in light of recent events these cops would have tried another tactic than shooting him but it happened very fast and they went with their training. Nothing seems amiss here, although I suppose I could be wrong, but it is tragic and I think police in that area might start having to do some out of the box thinking in order to ease tensions.

That all makes sense.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If they shoot quicker and from greater distance, they've got a good chance of a disabling leg wound instead of a fatality (for the cop as well as the crazy cat), and still have time to kill if they must. And then they sound like cowboys, because they shot fast and from far away.

More and better non-lethal weapons, more and better training, lots of other stuff that can make this less likely. It'll still happen, but maybe less often. Better for all concerned that way. I'd hate to be a cop who had to kill someone. My cousin-in-law was pretty shook up from just wounding a kid.

[Lone Wolf1]

...........................

[Flea]

To Protect And To serve. And To Fucking Kill You.




I really think this entire situation would de-escalate if the goddamn cops would just leave people alone.

[cortez the killer]

...........................

I concur.

[Lone Wolf1]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/mi ... ys-source/

[Zip City]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

Apparently there are as many versions of this story as there are witnesses. This entire thing is a joke

[LBRod]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

They would have led with those pictures if that was true. This sounds like a cya attempt.

[Lone Wolf1]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

Apparently there are as many versions of this story as there are witnesses. This entire thing is a joke

kinda why i posted it. MSNBC, CNN, have different slants on it.

[John A Arkansawyer]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

They would have led with those pictures if that was true. This sounds like a cya attempt.

Probably but not certainly true. One thing that I've noticed is that the Ferguson administration is in completely over its head. They don't have the slightest idea what they're doing. What you say makes total sense at a pro level, but these people are strictly amateur hour. Except their bullets. They kill pretty well. Unfortunately.

[John A Arkansawyer]

Of course he was mentally ill. From all reports that's obvious. It seems they tried to talk him down then he said this:

The chief said that the officers repeatedly ordered the man to drop the knife and drew their weapons after he did not drop it. The chief said the man told the police: “Shoot me now. Kill me now.”

It's pretty clear the man wanted die, ill or not, and by charging at the police he made that happen. By my understanding that is classic "suicide by cop" and frankly I think suicide itself is a symptom of mental illness. Trust me I know a little about that aspect. To be honest I would think that in light of recent events these cops would have tried another tactic than shooting him but it happened very fast and they went with their training. Nothing seems amiss here, although I suppose I could be wrong, but it is tragic and I think police in that area might start having to do some out of the box thinking in order to ease tensions.

That all makes sense.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If they shoot quicker and from greater distance, they've got a good chance of a disabling leg wound instead of a fatality (for the cop as well as the crazy cat), and still have time to kill if they must. And then they sound like cowboys, because they shot fast and from far away.

More and better non-lethal weapons, more and better training, lots of other stuff that can make this less likely. It'll still happen, but maybe less often. Better for all concerned that way. I'd hate to be a cop who had to kill someone. My cousin-in-law was pretty shook up from just wounding a kid.

It helps if the cops don't lie like rugs about what happened:

St. Louis Police Release Video Of Kajieme Powell Killing That Appears At Odds With Their Story

St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said Tuesday that both of the officers opened fire on Powell when he came within a three or four feet of them holding a knife "in an overhand grip."

But the newly released cell phone footage undermines the statement, showing Powell approaching the cops, but not coming as close as was reported, with his hands at his side. The officers began shooting within 15 seconds of their arrival, hitting Powell with a barrage of bullets.

The three or four feet thing? Yeah, I'd cut 'em a break on screwing that up. Holding a knife in an overhand grip? Give me a fucking break.

P.S. Someone need to teach the county's persecuting attorney how to work his caps lock.

[chickenwingpuke]

Anyone watching the polical corruption trial of former Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell and former First Lady Maureen McDonnell in Federal Court in Richmond? Old Bob is throwing his wife under the bus...and it's a big bus, and it's moving really fast.
Your thoughts?

[allisonsdc]

Anyone watching the polical corruption trial of former Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell and former First Lady Maureen McDonnell in Federal Court in Richmond? Old Bob is throwing his wife under the bus...and it's a big bus, and it's moving really fast.
Your thoughts?

At first I thought he was throwing her under the bus, but now I'm thinking she's just a truly horrible person.

[chickenwingpuke]

I think I may be moving toward your opinion there Allison - I just read Bob's email to Maureen trying to work together. She must be a tyrant. I used to work with Bob, and saw them together many times, and they always appeared very close. But that was 20 years ago...lots has happened since then.

[Flea]

The way that McDonnell has always wrapped himself in the family values flag makes this rear-ending so tasty.

[Iowan]

The whole Ferguson thing is just a classic example of why I hate the modern news cycle. I feel like I can't trust a single news source out there. Everyone, and I mean everyone is reporting "facts" that play to their bias. More liberal news sources, or those tied to minority groups are saying this guy was just walking down the street, doing nothing, and was randomly harassed, then killed by the racist white officer. The conservative news sources say he was savagely attacking the white officer just after robbing a grocery store. All opinion pieces I've read take the stance that one of these accounts is true, and then go on to justify their bias, be it stating that America is as race-troubled as ever, or that there's a liberal conspiracy to make everything look racist. We still haven't seen any pictures, videos, or hard evidence supporting either side. The ONLY actual fact that has been confirmed is that a white officer shot and killed an unarmed black teenager.

The whole rush to judgment on either side is kind of sickening to me. No one wants to know the truth, they want to use this as an example to justify their biases. I personally wouldn't be surprised if either account is true, because God knows cops go too far and overreact to mild situations on a pretty routine basis (especially with minorities), just as we all know that the idea of idiot teenagers getting pissed off and attacking cops happens. The black witnesses say that he was doing nothing at all, and the cops say he was attacking them. I have a hard time believing either of these accounts, given things I've observed in my life and career.

But rather than wait and get any kind of video, or photos, or unbiased accounts, the news outlets just pick their side and furiously throw up any glimmer of information that they hear which supports the outcome they want to see in all of this. Liberals scream "racist cops" and conservatives scream "race-bait conspiracy". The truth gets lots in the shuffle.

[John A Arkansawyer]

But rather than wait and get any kind of video, or photos, or unbiased accounts, the news outlets just pick their side and furiously throw up any glimmer of information that they hear which supports the outcome they want to see in all of this. Liberals scream "racist cops" and conservatives scream "race-bait conspiracy". The truth gets lots in the shuffle.

I hear you. Having gotten to know some cops on a non-hostile basis over the years, I've gotten a lot more willing to look for reasons to cut them a break. People attacking with knives is one where I'm particularly willing--they're much more dangerous than most people realize. (Yes, I've had both knives and guns pulled on me. And I've been very lucky. It's not like I'm capable of being any sort of badass.) The human beings involved are always messier than they appear. Cops are just human beings, too, and I'm learning to treat them like humans should be treated. I'm also working on that for the rest of the human race. We'll see how that goes.

But I also took a side on this, early on without sufficient information to be certain what was true about the encounter between Darren Wilson and Michael Brown. If you wait to be certain, the world passes you by. (And that's another reason to see the humanity in a cop who had to make a hard, uninformed decision on the spot.) In this case, even if the worst is true about Michael Brown, I am still on the side of the people in Ferguson who had their town occupied by a paramilitary force. I'd be protesting, too, and I wouldn't be jumping when the paramilitaries said "Frog!" I'd be pushing back as hard as I was willing to risk.

I thought these two summaries from Doug Muder's invaluable <i>Weekly Sift</i> were very good:

What Your Fox-Watching Uncle Doesn’t Get About Ferguson

Unwarranted

The last one is particularly good in linking out to articles that show there's a systemic problem, and not just with Ferguson. The part about the use of the court system to finance the town government is particularly telling. When you fund your government by using the police in this manner, you've abandoned rule of law.

If this were a little town with a speed trap, we'd be shutting it down.

[Iowan]

FWIW, I do not agree with the paramilitary interaction between the police and protesters that occurred in Ferguson after the fact. I found it a bit over the top and unnecessary, which I do with the majority of instances where the police use paramilitary force.

I'm just talking about the incident between Brown and Wilson, and how it exemplifies the major issues with journalism in this country, and the effect it can have.

[John A Arkansawyer]

I'm just talking about the incident between Brown and Wilson, and how it exemplifies the major issues with journalism in this country, and the effect it can have.

Yes. It's not new--partisan journalism has a long and largely honorable tradition--but the speed with which it happens is. The resulting emergent behavior is new.

[beantownbubba]

There are a number of big picture issues being played out here but the fundamental one, IMHO, the one that stays away from the emotional and inflammatory issues of race, "police state" and the like is simply this: We have no idea what we expect from our police or even what is reasonable to expect. We want them to act as if every decision could be reviewed in advance (oxymoron I know, stick w/ me) in slo-mo multiple angle video and in consultation w/ experts. We want the cops to stay safe. We want cops to respect individuals yet be constantly alert to actual and potential dangers. And we want the cops to keep us safe and to do that in part by arresting/stopping the bad guys. We want them to balance the absolutely essential human functions of categorizing and classifying but to balance that w/ considerations of fairness and self-examination for bias in real time dangerous situations. It is a structure/system that does not and cannot work to satisfy all those objectives simultaneously. The phrase "set up to fail" comes to mind.

As JohnA notes, cops are just human beings for all the good and bad that implies. And we do ask them to make split second life and death decisions w/ incomplete and sometimes virtually no information. It's an impossible job and yes those human frailties such as racism and other profiling or stereotyping processing will inevitably make things worse. But it also makes it worse to pretend that cops, more than other human beings and in more stressful situations, can check/control the absolutely essential and inevitable human system which classifies, categorizes and compares to memory, experience and learned behavior. Why do we expect cops to be better at this than the rest of us in situations more stressful than most of us will ever face? Just to be clear, I'm not talking about stuff like driving while black and other flat out racist, harassing behavior. I'm talking about the inherently dangerous real time stuff.

I think that on some level everyone knows this. Which is why inevitably when these situations occur we flail around and we take sides depending more on which of those values/goals we value most highly rather than trying to "objectively" parse the ambiguous, incomplete and frustrating facts. And in the modern world where everything is systematized and institutionalized, there are people and groups/companies always ready to step in and replace ambiguity w/ specific agendas, whether they're appropriate or not. As Iowan started out saying, the news cycle is set up to give these folks the floor and they take it. It's actually quite similar in a way to high frequency stock trading (see Michael Lewis's most recent book) where the parties best equipped to take advantage of the structure/system w/ the most speed win w/out regard to substance (actually analyzing stocks and attempting to pick winners).

[Tequila Cowboy]

Michael Brown's Mom Laid Flowers Where He Was Shot—and Police Crushed Them

Classy.

[chickenwingpuke]

Holy shit. I thought old Bob had teflon armor and might skate. History has been made in Virginia. Wrapped in his cloak of holiness, he has been taken down.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state ... f6878.html

[beantownbubba]

Gay marriage is good for business. Who woulda thunk it?

"Thirty major U.S. corporations, from Alcoa Inc. to Viacom Inc., Thursday filed a friend of the court brief with the U.S. Supreme Court, urging the Court to grant certiorari and hear appeals on same-sex marriage cases.
The brief also urged the Supreme Court to hold that prohibitions on same-sex marriage and nonrecognition of same-sex marriages are both unconstitutional."


Read more: http://www.corpcounsel.com/id=120266908 ... z3CTR6h9i2

[Flea]

Well, I don't see what harm could come from this.

Military rifles, armor sent to Texas school police

http://www.khou.com/story/news/investigations/2014/09/05/military-rifles-armor-ammo-sent-to-texas-school-police/15112731/

[John A Arkansawyer]

I feel sorry for Mark Sanford. Most politicians sound humanoid at best. This letter sounds like it was written by an actual human being in considerable pain. I sincerely hope things work out for him.

[beantownbubba]

I feel sorry for Mark Sanford. Most politicians sound humanoid at best. This letter sounds like it was written by an actual human being in considerable pain. I sincerely hope things work out for him.

I have no idea what to make of this. The comments, however, freak me out.