Goodell's gonna nuke Gregg Williams and the Saints

[Duke Silver]

Not a good time to be on the wrong side of anything that endangers players' health.

http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports. ... 8/35064299

NFL: N.O. had bounty program to injure opponents

By Josh Katzowitz

In a stunning announcement, the NFL has released the news of an investigation into a team-wide bounty program in New Orleans in which at least one coach and about two dozen players conspired to intentionally hurt opponents and knock them out of the game for money.

Between 22 and 27 players, and at least one assistant coach maintained this “pay for performance” bounty program, violating league rules in 2009, 2010 and 2011.

And the knowledge of the program reaches all the way into the owners box. Saints owner Tom Benson -- who was cited by the league as giving his “immediate and full cooperation to investigators” -- told general manager Mickey Loomis to end the program immediately when he became aware of it in 2011. According to the NFL, “the evidence showed that Mr. Loomis did not carry out Mr. Benson’s directions. Similarly, when the initial allegations were discussed with Mr. Loomis in 2010, he denied any knowledge of a bounty program and pledged that he would ensure that no such program was in place. There is no evidence that Mr. Loomis took any effective action to stop these practices.”

According to the NFL, the funds of the bounty pool -- to which players regularly contributed and which was administered by former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, now with the Rams -- might have reached as high as $50,000 during the 2009 playoffs. If a player knocked out an opponent, they received $1,500. If an opponent had to be taken off on a cart, a player was paid $1,000. Those payouts could double or triple during the playoffs.

“Our investigation began in early 2010 when allegations were first made that Saints players had targeted opposing players, including Kurt Warner of the Cardinals and Brett Favre of the Vikings,” commissioner Roger Goodell said in a statement. “Our security department interviewed numerous players and other individuals. At the time, those interviewed denied that any such program existed and the player that made the allegation retracted his earlier assertions. As a result, the allegations could not be proven. We recently received significant and credible new information and the investigation was re-opened during the latter part of the 2011 season.”

The NFL also found that coach Sean Payton was not a direct participant in the bounty program but that he didn’t make an attempt to learn about it or stop it when NFL investigators began asking about it.

Now, it’s up to Goodell to dole out the possible punishment. He has told the Saints that he will hold more proceedings and meet with the NFLPA and individual player leaders to discuss the appropriate discipline.

The league notes that “the discipline could include fines and suspensions and, in light of the competitive nature of the violation, forfeiture of draft choices. … Any appeal would be heard and decided by the commissioner.”

Said Goodell: “The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for ‘performance,’ but also for injuring opposing players. The bounty rule promotes two key elements of NFL football: player safety and competitive integrity.

“It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated. We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety and we are not going to relent. We have more work to do and we will do it.”

Here's Benson's statement on the matter: "I have been made aware of the NFL's findings relative to the 'bounty rule' and how it relates to our club. I have offered and the NFL has received our full cooperation in their investigation. While the findings may be troubling, we look forward to putting this behind us and winning more championships in the future for our fans."

[bovine knievel]

i had just read this on MSN. First thing I thought of was...

[Duke Silver]

i had just read this on MSN. First thing I thought of was...

yep. williams comes from his coaching tree, doesn't he?

[beantownbubba]

So let's see...

Let's say an average NFL starting defender makes about $600K. I don't know the actual numbers but if I'm off I suspect it's low. Over 16 games, that's $37,500/game. And for a measly 2.6% more, not even enough for a nite in a VIP room, they're willing to maim an opponent, someone they may have gone to football factory with. Someone a whole lot like them. Not just criminals. Stupid criminals.

[Duke Silver]

Peter King has a good summary.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... index.html

The most alarming finding by the league, according to one club source who was briefed on the investigation late Friday afternoon, was this: Before the 2009 NFC Championship Game, Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma offered any defensive teammate $10,000 in cash to knock then-Vikings quarterback Brett Favre out of the game. Favre was hit viciously several times in the game. That fact was in a report to the 32 NFL owners, sent out by the league to detail further what the league's 50,000-page investigation found.

[Zip City]

Who dat?

[Clams]

Peter King has a good summary.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... index.html

The most alarming finding by the league, according to one club source who was briefed on the investigation late Friday afternoon, was this: Before the 2009 NFC Championship Game, Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma offered any defensive teammate $10,000 in cash to knock then-Vikings quarterback Brett Favre out of the game. Favre was hit viciously several times in the game. That fact was in a report to the 32 NFL owners, sent out by the league to detail further what the league's 50,000-page investigation found.

Interesting to me that the NFL could perform such a wide-ranging investigation and compile a 50,000 page report and keep it entirely confidential, yet MLB couldn't do the same with the Ryan Braun fiasco, which seems to be much more limited in scope.

Now then. All that aside... where's dime???

[Tequila Cowboy]

Clams, don't compare the NFL with MLB. Pud Selig and his merry band have the market cornered on stupid.

Anyway on with the subject at hand. This is a huge one folks. In the current NFL atmosphere where it seems that another lawsuit is filed daily by former players over safety issues, this is the last thing the NFL needed. Football is a violent sport played by big angry men and, frankly, they've been taught to go after guys as hard as they could since they were boys with a fraction of the strength they have as adults. Gregg Williams has been around a long time and I'm guessing other coaches that have worked with him are doing similar things, in fact I'm sure Williams learned it from his mentor Buddy Ryan. So what does the NFL do? Strip the SB trophy away? Take draft picks? What? This here is a pickle to be sure and, I'm guessing, is the tip of a very dangerous iceberg.

[dime in the gutter]

whiney fucksticks.

[cortez the killer]

whiney fucksticks.

Yup. Heads are gonna roll. Love him or hate him, Gregg Williams got those fuckers to play hard. Those that don't understand, will never understand. It's a violent game played by violent men. It's America's version of Roman gladiators. Eat the sausage. Enjoy the sausage. Do not tour the sausage factory.

[beantownbubba]

whiney fucksticks.

Yup. Heads are gonna roll. Love him or hate him, Gregg Williams got those fuckers to play hard. Those that don't understand, will never understand. It's a violent game played by violent men. It's America's version of Roman gladiators. Eat the sausage. Enjoy the sausage. Do not tour the sausage factory.

Bullshit.

"Paying someone money to intentionally disable a third person" describes at least a half dozen felonies. That's not playing hard. That's not playing violent. That's not "what do you expect when huge men jacked up on steroids play an inherently violent game?" That's not the hypocrisy involved in the current concussion "controversy." That's just plain criminal.

[Clams]

whiney fucksticks.

Yup. Heads are gonna roll. Love him or hate him, Gregg Williams got those fuckers to play hard. Those that don't understand, will never understand. It's a violent game played by violent men. It's America's version of Roman gladiators. Eat the sausage. Enjoy the sausage. Do not tour the sausage factory.

Bullshit.

"Paying someone money to intentionally disable a third person" describes at least a half dozen felonies. That's not playing hard. That's not playing violent. That's not "what do you expect when huge men jacked up on steroids play an inherently violent game?" That's not the hypocrisy involved in the current concussion "controversy." That's just plain criminal.

It also goes to the integrity of the game, b/c you have guys who are more intent on knocking someone out than tackling the guy with the ball.

[cortez the killer]

Payments were made for plays such as interceptions and fumble recoveries. But the program also included "bounty" payments for "cart-offs," meaning that the opposing player was carried off the field, and "knockouts," meaning that the opposing player was not able to return.

What is a "cart-off" or a "knockout"? The player got hit so hard he needed to be carted off the field? Concuss him? Blow his knee out? Vague language, heightened by media coverage. Seriously guys, I DO NOT advocate dirty play, but I appreciate tough, hard, straddle-the-line play. Williams was attempting to instill toughness in his players. He stradled the line, but I do not see anything explicit in terms of dirty play. With millions and millions of dollars at stake, lines certainly get blury. Don't bury your heads in the sand.

[Tequila Cowboy]

whiney fucksticks.

Yup. Heads are gonna roll. Love him or hate him, Gregg Williams got those fuckers to play hard. Those that don't understand, will never understand. It's a violent game played by violent men. It's America's version of Roman gladiators. Eat the sausage. Enjoy the sausage. Do not tour the sausage factory.

Bullshit.

"Paying someone money to intentionally disable a third person" describes at least a half dozen felonies. That's not playing hard. That's not playing violent. That's not "what do you expect when huge men jacked up on steroids play an inherently violent game?" That's not the hypocrisy involved in the current concussion "controversy." That's just plain criminal.

I understand where you're coming from Beantown, but this type of thing isn't new. I think the only shock here is that they kept off the record books on this to track the program and the money. In the Eighties Charles Martin of the Packers used to have his "hit list" of numbers on his towel for all the world to see. Again these are large angry men playing a violent game, the sentiment of trying to send an opposing player out of a game on stretcher is hardly surprising. Now what makes this problemeatic for me is the charged atmosphere of player safety that exists in the game right now. How many of these players involved in this have participated in the NFL Player's Association's meeting and negotiations with the league over safety? Several former PA reps just filed a suit against the NFL this week. Because of this hypocrisy my guess is that the NFL will be forced into policies of massive overreaction.

[Iowan]

Even the "victims" of this scheme (most notably Kurt Warner from the '09 playoff game) have come out and said the majority of the hits were clean.

I'm with Cortez on this. You have to play on the verge of crossing the line. Its no secret that in many levels of the game, the least penalized teams are often at the bottom of the standings. You aim to play clean, but you play as hard as possible and as close to the line as you can. Its one thing to encourage guys to play as hard and close to the line as possible, and having the occasional play that crosses it, and its another to just encourage dirty play. I don't seen Williams as having encouraged dirty play.

Just my $.02.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Don't get me wrong I'm mostly on Cortez' side of the fence on this. My questions primarily are about procedure and hypocrisy. First why keep the fucking books? By doning so these players and coaches violated the CBA and skirted the salary cap. If you're going to that don't leave a paper trail. Also many Saints players have been involved in studies and negotiations towards making the game safer. That's hypocrisy.


This is a good piece by Matt Bowen, an NFL reporter and commentator based here in Chicago who used to play for Williams:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/fo ... 992.column

[dime in the gutter]

the hammer is gonna come down hard on this deal.

[Zip City]

Had I heard this story without knowing the team involved, I would've guessed the Lions long before the Saints

[sg207]

Can't say that I'm shocked. It was knows that this went on 20-30 years ago. I can't imagine why it would have changed since then.

Cortez is right, it's a violent game played by violent people. This isn't surprising at all. What would be very surprising to me is if they are the only team that does it.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Can't say that I'm shocked. It was knows that this went on 20-30 years ago. I can't imagine why it would have changed since then.

Cortez is right, it's a violent game played by violent people. This isn't surprising at all. What would be very surprising to me is if they are the only team that does it.

Agreed. The biggest thing here is the stupidity of the participants. Again my real concern is in the overeaction which is already starting, I mean the IRS has now launched an investigation into the money. Really IRS?

edit:

I am not condoning this, merely accepting the fact that this most likely goes on in the majority of NFL locker rooms. This case is egregious because of the off the record bookkeeping and some of the explicit terminology (ie. cart off).

[Flood18]

whiney fucksticks.

Yup. Heads are gonna roll. Love him or hate him, Gregg Williams got those fuckers to play hard. Those that don't understand, will never understand. It's a violent game played by violent men. It's America's version of Roman gladiators. Eat the sausage. Enjoy the sausage. Do not tour the sausage factory.

Bullshit.

"Paying someone money to intentionally disable a third person" describes at least a half dozen felonies. That's not playing hard. That's not playing violent. That's not "what do you expect when huge men jacked up on steroids play an inherently violent game?" That's not the hypocrisy involved in the current concussion "controversy." That's just plain criminal.

You mean like boxing?

[beantownbubba]

You mean like boxing?

This observer's card had it 10 points out of 10 for a witty riposte; 2 out of 10 for a useful analogy.

[Zip City]

A violent sport that's about violent men hurting each other?

I thought it was about scoring more points than your opponent

[sg207]

A violent sport that's about violent men hurting each other?

I thought it was about scoring more points than your opponent

It is.

But it's not scored by who has the best tea and crumpets, that's for sure.

[rip_this_joint]

As a Rams fan this is going to be bad for us. Will probably have to let Williams go. No sense keeping a D-coordinator who is not going to be around much of the season.

[cortez the killer]

But it's not scored by who has the best tea and crumpets, that's for sure.

Can we measure that statistically?

[Zip City]

Hitting players hard is part of the game, but the goal should be to end the play, not end the player's season

[cortez the killer]

Thanks Zip. Your insight and perspective here has allowed me to look at this situation differently.

[UncleFrank23]

I thought this was a really good read offering a different perspective.

http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... nters.html

[sg207]

But it's not scored by who has the best tea and crumpets, that's for sure.

Can we measure that statistically?

I'm gussing there is some kind of sabremetric out there that at least attempts to qualify it.