Quick List #162: Top Five Baseball Managers

[Tequila Cowboy]

Current managers:

1. Joe Maddon
2. Tony LaRussa
3. Mike Scosia
4. Ron Gardenhire
5. Jim Leyland

Last 50 or 60 years (yeah, not an expert on Connie Mack and the like so why bother?):

1. Bobby Cox
2. Sparky Anderson
3. Tony LaRussa
4. Tommy Lasorda
5. Joe Torre

[Zip City]

I'm going to be contrary for a minute. Act surprised

I think a manager has very little to do with the outcome of a season. Maybe a 2-4 game swing one way or the other. Outside of setting a lineup (minor) and handling a pitching staff (manor), they don't have much affect on the game (compared to the coaches of other sports).

Those managers who have long, successful careers almost always benefit from being on teams with talented players. Look at Joe Torre, for example. Did he suddenly become a super genius manager when he was hired by the Yankees? Did he lose his mojo when he went to the Dodgers? Or did he maybe just benefit from being in NY at the right time?

That said, a manager can definitely fuck things up if they are bad. See: Dusty Baker

[Slipkid42]

Mgrs. who have long successful careers have more than a 2-4 game swing to hang their hat on.

Current:

Bochte
Leyland
LaRussa
Maddon
Gardenhire

Last 50-60 yrs.:

Earl
Sparky
Cox
Herzog
LaRussa (or Leyland)

[Zip City]

Was Terry Francona a bad manager in Philly, but suddenly a great one in Boston? How do you think he'd be doing with the Phillies of the past few years?

[mwh]

Of course managers with the more talented players have the more successful careers, but you could say that about any sport. Was Phil Jackson a great coach or did he benefit from having MJ and Kobe? I would argue that baseball managers are more integral to their teams success than basketball coaches. There is more strategy to baseball that you're giving credit for. Managing a pitching staff isn't minor. When to bunt, getting your favorable pitching/ hitting matchups, where to position your fielders, etc. I think basketball is more of a game of pure athleticism. A good manager is going to affect more than 2-4 games.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Of course managers with the more talented players have the more successful careers, but you could say that about any sport. Was Phil Jackson a great coach or did he benefit from having MJ and Kobe? I would argue that baseball managers are more integral to their teams success than basketball coaches. There is more strategy to baseball that you're giving credit for. Managing a pitching staff isn't minor. When to bunt, getting your favorable pitching/ hitting matchups, where to position your fielders, etc. I think basketball is more of a game of pure athleticism. A good manager is going to affect more than 2-4 games.

Agreed. To dismiss the importance of a baseball manager is, quite frankly, absurd. It's about all the things mwh states, and it's also about tone, fundamentals and standards. Let's look at the Minnesota Twins and Ron Gardenhire for a minute. The team has a medium size payroll and usually has to let go of young stars when it's time to get paid yet year after year the team contends. is it about their farm system? Yes. Is it about Gardenhire? Of course. There is a "Twins way" that is stressed at every level of the minor league system and is then continued at the major league level. If a guy comes in from another organization and shows himself to not be fundamemtally sound, it is Gardenhire's job to hold that player accountable and sit him until he conforms. Could he do this without talent? Of course not but his role is much greater than a 2-4 game swing. Joe Maddon and the Rays are a nearly identical story.

Another kind of manager is Tony LaRussa. While I loathe giving praise to the manager of the Cardinals, I'd be an idiot not to. This man got his team in the playoffs with zero bullpen and that's always been his blueprint, plugging holes anyway he can, shuffling players in and out from the minors, and getting everything he can from role players, in addition to letting his stars shine. I guarantee you that a lesser manager would not have had this team in the playoffs. Terry Francona is a different sort and, very much like Phil Jackson in basketball, is in addition to his game skills an ego manager. Ozzie Guillen always made his team better by making himself the spectacle and taking the heat off his players, and they loved him for it. Now that model doesn't work forever but it did work well enough to keep his team as contenders for several years and won a WS.

Sabermetricians love to break baseball down to stats, and they are important, but baseball is a game of mind set and and attitude as well. Those things fall to the managers and coaches. How those are managed are as different as the men doing them, but to deny their importance is folly.

[ScottyC]

Also, I think this needs to be graded on a curve. The best manager in the national league should be ranked higher than the american league. Having to worry about the pitchers spot in the lineup, maximizing your bullpen, double switches, etc means there is much more to worry about. Many times you will have to stick with a pitcher for an additional batter because the pitchers spot is due up during your next AB.

[Zip City]

I listed the managing of a pitching staff as the one major thing a manager does, and that's where I think the swing can happen over the course of a season. It's the closest thing to 'play calling' a manager does. Some managers are great at it, some are terrible. LaRussa, in my opinion, over manages his staff, always trying to get perfect matchups, which sometimes burns through his pen early in a game. Dusty Baker is awful with pitchers, as we've seen from the trail of broken arms he's left in his wake.

Look, Charlie Manuel can look like a genius for pinch-hitting Ben Francisco when the player hits a go-ahead home run, but it was the player who did it.

I also don't think you're giving enough credit to basketball coaches, especially in the NBA. Talk about ego-management! They also call the offensive and defensive plays and call for the substitutions to get favorable match ups. Basketball also has far more intense practices.

In conclusions, I think having a "good" manager in baseball basically means your team is going to do what they're supposed to do. Having a "bad" manager might cost you some games.

[beantownbubba]

Current:

Maddon
Leyland
Scosia
Gardenhire
Francona (LaRussa drives me crazy though his credentials are obviously top notch)

60 years:

Stengel
Herzog
Weaver
Leyland
In 5 years or so, Maddon will have this slot; as of today, it's a toss-up among a bunch of those already mentioned and Yogi Berra, a very underrated manager imo.

Re zip's comments, I'm w/ mwh & tc.

[Gang Green]

Lot's of subjectivity with this one, but I'm partial to the 70's and 80's, I'm going with

Whitey Herzog - I think was one of the best ever
Earl Weaver - I think was one of the other best ever
Dick Williams - with the A's he balanced the most pissed-off group of players with a nut case owner and won three in a row and some
Sparkey Anderson - Created an air of stablilty with two different multi-talanted teams
Tom Lasorda - What he accomplished in 1988 with a minimully talanted Dodger team was enough for me. He blew away Davey Johnson and Tony LaRussa

Worthy of mention:

Billy Martin - He got immediate results then his drinking and personal life would always get in the way and would self destruct.
Leo Durocher - Also, got immediate results, but abused pitchers and, ultimately, his personal life would get in the way. Helped the 1969 Cubs self destruct.
Roger Craig - Always liked what he accomplished with the Giants in the late eighties, big backer of the split finger fast ball which worked for awhile.
Lou Pinella - The 1990 Reds with a crazy owner and blowing away the A's was quite an accomplishment in my book
Jim Leyland - Had some good teams in Pittsburgh with high maintenance players Bonds and Bonilla, though never had the strong righthanded bat to get past the Braves. Got to win in Florida.

The ones I don't like, though everyone else does:

Tony LaRussa - Should have done more with those A's teams and got man handled by Tom Lasorda and Lou Pinella. And, he's got to do something about the hair
Bobby Cox - Had lots of talent with Toronto and Atlanta, didn't do enought for my taste. Like LaRussa, extremely overrated in my book
Joe Torre - Created an air of stability I suppose, but I still thought he was nothing special, maybe it was those early years with Mets which influenced me. I hear both sides from my Yankee fan friends from home.

[Tequila Cowboy]

I hate Tony LaRussa, but it's difficult to not call him one of the best managers in the game, and possibly one of the best of all time. I mean the man won a World Series with an 83 win team and got a pretty bad team this season to the NLCS. The way he uses the farm system during the year as an extension of his roster is something that no one else in the game has ever mastered. Being a colossal asshat doesn't diminish any of that.

[Zip City]

having Albert Pujols doesn't hurt either

[dime in the gutter]

wilford brimley in the natural.

dude in bull durham...not the annoying one, the other one.

[RevMatt]

No love for Davey Johnson? Both Gardenhire and Billy Beane came up under Davey Johnson.

[Bill in CT]

Current:
Mike Scioscia
Terry Francona
Tony LaRussa
Jim Leyland
Joe Maddon

Since World War II:
Casey Stengel
Dick Williams
Walter Alston
Sparky Anderson
Earl Weaver

[Erdlivz]

Cox
LaRussa
S. Anderson
Torre
Leyland

[Gang Green]

No love for Davey Johnson? Both Gardenhire and Billy Beane came up under Davey Johnson.

I'm not sure I would give credit to Davey Johnson for Billy Beane. He had long since left the Mets when he got a shot in the front office. Davey made a nice splash in the begining, and he had long been using data to help with his decision making, and he was clearly thinking out of the box and was a refreshing change in the begining. But after his first few years, he could never keep his Mets under control with all the drinking and drugs (and he was doing much of the drinking himself), and he succombed to pressure from his veterans Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter as he was letting them run the team (he should have dropped Carter in the line-up in 1987 and moved Strawberry up). And, he should have been playing Dykstra more than Mookie Wilson. He lost control of that team in the late 80's which should have done a little more than one World Series in 1986. Frank Cashen was no help then either, but by 1989 everything was all screwed-up with that team.

[RevMatt]

No love for Davey Johnson? Both Gardenhire and Billy Beane came up under Davey Johnson.

I'm not sure I would give credit to Davey Johnson for Billy Beane. He had long since left the Mets when he got a shot in the front office. Davey made a nice splash in the begining, and he had long been using data to help with his decision making, and he was clearly thinking out of the box and was a refreshing change in the begining. But after his first few years, he could never keep his Mets under control with all the drinking and drugs (and he was doing much of the drinking himself), and he succombed to pressure from his veterans Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter as he was letting them run the team (he should have dropped Carter in the line-up in 1987 and moved Strawberry up). And, he should have been playing Dykstra more than Mookie Wilson. He lost control of that team in the late 80's which should have done a little more than one World Series in 1986. Frank Cashen was no help then either, but by 1989 everything was all screwed-up with that team.

I don't know if moving Straw to cleanup in 1984 was the right answer. At that point in his career Straw was not as disciplined a hitter as he was with The Yankees in the 90's. Johnson figured that with Straw batting behind Carter, Carter would see better pitches. I think Kevin Mitchell might have ended up being the clean up hitter had he not been traded after the 86 season.

If you look at the development of sabermetric thinking in baseball managers, it starts with Earl Weaver, then goes to Davey Johnson and onto Billy Beane. Beane served his minor league apprenticeship under Johnson. So did Gardenhire who was a Wally Backman type of player in the Mets organization. One of the great rivalries in the eighties was The Mets and The Cardinals. Whitey Herzog was the master of the stolen base, the sacrifice bunt and the suicide squeeze. Davey played for the big inning. It was small ball versus moneyball. The only difference is that when it came to pitching, Herzog was more Moneyball than Johnson. Herzog used a bullpen by committee. Johnson would often bring his closer in during the seventh or eighth and have him finish the game. That was seventies bullpen thinking.

If they had a wild card back in the eighties, Johnson would have made the playoffs in each of his first five years as manager of The Mets.

[Slipkid42]

Orioles record in 1995 - 71-73
Orioles record in '96-97 (under Davey J.) - 186-138
Orioles record since 1997 - 990-1276

[njMark]

well I dont really know who was better or worse but the managers I can remember liking in my 25 years of watching baseball are

Joe Torre
Sparky Anderson
Tony LaRussa

Does Sparky Lyle count? he manages our local independent league team and they won like a shitload of titles

[njMark]

Walter Matthau in The Bad News Bears, hands down.

[Gang Green]

No love for Davey Johnson? Both Gardenhire and Billy Beane came up under Davey Johnson.

I'm not sure I would give credit to Davey Johnson for Billy Beane. He had long since left the Mets when he got a shot in the front office. Davey made a nice splash in the begining, and he had long been using data to help with his decision making, and he was clearly thinking out of the box and was a refreshing change in the begining. But after his first few years, he could never keep his Mets under control with all the drinking and drugs (and he was doing much of the drinking himself), and he succombed to pressure from his veterans Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter as he was letting them run the team (he should have dropped Carter in the line-up in 1987 and moved Strawberry up). And, he should have been playing Dykstra more than Mookie Wilson. He lost control of that team in the late 80's which should have done a little more than one World Series in 1986. Frank Cashen was no help then either, but by 1989 everything was all screwed-up with that team.

I don't know if moving Straw to cleanup in 1984 was the right answer. At that point in his career Straw was not as disciplined a hitter as he was with The Yankees in the 90's. Johnson figured that with Straw batting behind Carter, Carter would see better pitches. I think Kevin Mitchell might have ended up being the clean up hitter had he not been traded after the 86 season.

If you look at the development of sabermetric thinking in baseball managers, it starts with Earl Weaver, then goes to Davey Johnson and onto Billy Beane. Beane served his minor league apprenticeship under Johnson. So did Gardenhire who was a Wally Backman type of player in the Mets organization. One of the great rivalries in the eighties was The Mets and The Cardinals. Whitey Herzog was the master of the stolen base, the sacrifice bunt and the suicide squeeze. Davey played for the big inning. It was small ball versus moneyball. The only difference is that when it came to pitching, Herzog was more Moneyball than Johnson. Herzog used a bullpen by committee. Johnson would often bring his closer in during the seventh or eighth and have him finish the game. That was seventies bullpen thinking.

If they had a wild card back in the eighties, Johnson would have made the playoffs in each of his first five years as manager of The Mets.

Rev, your forcing me to revisit my nightmares which would be the Mets in the late eighties. Thank god for John McNamara, Bill Buckner, Oil Can Boyd, Al Nipper, Bob Stanley and Tom Seaver's bad knee in 1986 or we would not have won anything (listen to "Buckners Polero" by the Baseball Project). I agree with some of your points and disagree with others. You mentioned 1984, Davey's first year. He was still a breath of fresh air. Straw strugged a lot that year, but Hubie Brooks had nice year, and they didn't get Gary Carter until 1985. Above I was discussing 1987, when Carter first showed signed of depreciation as he hit into double play after double play. Strawberry was coming into his own and they had McReynolds, both were better hitters than Carter at that point, and both were hitting down in the line-up. I'm telling you Carter was killing them batting fourth. Actually, Hernandez was starting to depreciate that year as well.

Ron Gardenhire and Wally Backman were clearly Davey's boys, and he moved them right into their line-up when he took over the Mets in 1984. Though, Gardenhire never panned out as a player. But, in the little amount of time Billy Beane played for Davey early in his career, he was still set on being a ball player, as he was drafted the same year as Strawberry. He was only just starting to realize he didn't have it. But, it would be several years later when he came full circle. Though Billy Beane may have noticed Davey's approach, I'm not sure I would credit Davey Johnson for Billy Beane's success. But, Davey was one of the first to value on base percentage, and I remember he hated Mookie Wilson as a lead-off hitter because he had no clue of the strike zone. And, Earl Weaver did hate to give away outs and he loved slugging percentage, though he might not of realized it. Both Davey and Earl are right in line with Sabermetric thinking.

In response to njmark, Buttermaker certainly has to be considered one of the best particularly after that game agianst the Vic Morrow led Yankees with Brandon Cruise (from Courtship of Eddie's father) on the mound.

Skipkid, I'm going back over Davey's O's years. Maybe I'm wrong about Davey afterall.

[RevMatt]

Actually, Carter's deterioration began in 1986 when he batted .255 and grounded into 21 double plays. He had major knee problems by the time he went to The Mets which hurt him in the batter's box as well as behind the plate. It also didn't help that Shea Stadim was a pitcher's park and not conducive to home runs. Carter would have had much better later career numbers if he played in a hitter's park. 1986 was also an off year for Strawberry as well. His OPS was .865 while in 85 and 87 it was .947 and .981 respectively. The Mets won all those games that season because they had great production in the number six and number seven spots in the order. (George Foster did have a hot streak before the All Star break and when he reverted to form Johnson put Danny Heep, Kevin Mitchell or Mookie Wilson in left.) Plus Davey would start guys like Kevin Mitchell or Howard Johnson at shortstop on the days Sid Fernandez and sometimes Dwight Gooden pitched. Davey took one look at El Sid's ground ball to fly ball ratio and concluded that putting a slugger at short for the first six innings would only increase production.

Davey Johnson does not get nearly enough credit for what The Mets did in 1986. The Mets won 108 games in a season where their number four and number five hitters had an OPS of .776 and .865. He was brilliant in the way he used his bench that year. It was a sabermetric case study.

[Zip City]

How about a list of Top Five Baseball General Managers. They have WAY more influence over the final record of the team than a fat old manager does

[Tequila Cowboy]

How about a list of Top Five Baseball General Managers. They have WAY more influence over the final record of the team than a fat old manager does

If you're talking the last twenty years, and now more than ever, you're right, the GM is the more important position. In the golden age of the game and through most of it's history the GM was nearly always at the beck and call of the field manager. The manager would consult with the owner and GM and say "get me this guy, or get me that guy" and that's how it went. If the manager was bad, so went the GM. In some cases the scouts reported directly to the field manager bypassing the GM entirely. Until John Schuerholz most fans didn't even know a GM's name.

[Tequila Cowboy]

How about a list of Top Five Baseball General Managers. They have WAY more influence over the final record of the team than a fat old manager does

If you're talking the last twenty years, and now more than ever, you're right, the GM is the more important position. In the golden age of the game and through most of it's history the GM was nearly always at the beck and call of the field manager. The manager would consult with the owner and GM and say "get me this guy, or get me that guy" and that's how it went. If the manager was bad, so went the GM. In some cases the scouts reported directly to the field manager bypassing the GM entirely. Until John Schuerholz most fans didn't even know a GM's name.

[Zip City]

How about a list of Top Five Baseball General Managers. They have WAY more influence over the final record of the team than a fat old manager does

If you're talking the last twenty years, and now more than ever, you're right, the GM is the more important position. In the golden age of the game and through most of it's history the GM was nearly always at the beck and call of the field manager. The manager would consult with the owner and GM and say "get me this guy, or get me that guy" and that's how it went. If the manager was bad, so went the GM. In some cases the scouts reported directly to the field manager bypassing the GM entirely. Until John Schuerholz most fans didn't even know a GM's name.

well clearly there is a difference in the GM job pre-free agency vs. post-free agency

[Gang Green]

Actually, Carter's deterioration began in 1986 when he batted .255 and grounded into 21 double plays. He had major knee problems by the time he went to The Mets which hurt him in the batter's box as well as behind the plate. It also didn't help that Shea Stadim was a pitcher's park and not conducive to home runs. Carter would have had much better later career numbers if he played in a hitter's park. 1986 was also an off year for Strawberry as well. His OPS was .865 while in 85 and 87 it was .947 and .981 respectively. The Mets won all those games that season because they had great production in the number six and number seven spots in the order. (George Foster did have a hot streak before the All Star break and when he reverted to form Johnson put Danny Heep, Kevin Mitchell or Mookie Wilson in left.) Plus Davey would start guys like Kevin Mitchell or Howard Johnson at shortstop on the days Sid Fernandez and sometimes Dwight Gooden pitched. Davey took one look at El Sid's ground ball to fly ball ratio and concluded that putting a slugger at short for the first six innings would only increase production.

Davey Johnson does not get nearly enough credit for what The Mets did in 1986. The Mets won 108 games in a season where their number four and number five hitters had an OPS of .776 and .865. He was brilliant in the way he used his bench that year. It was a sabermetric case study.

Great post, now I know who to console for my Mets whoes for which there are many. I'm coming around on Davey between you and Skipkid42. I thought they got rid of Foster during the 1986 season?

[RevMatt]

They did get rid of George Foster midway through the 1986 season. My memory is that Foster started off slowly in April but went on a tear in May or June. Foster was always a streaky batter but suffered when he went from Riverfront to Shea. Many hits that would have been a home run at higher elevation and smaller dimensions died at the warning track in Flushing. But he did have a streak early in the 86 season but slumped prior to the All Star break. Johnson began to use Mitchell, Wilson and Heep in left field while keeping Foster on the bench. Foster was released either in late July or early August and replaced by Lee Mazilli who was playing in Tidewater. (I was at the ball park in Hampton Roads the night Maz was called up, serving my two weeks Army Reserve duty at the School of Music.) The final straw for Foster and The Mets was when he refused to leave the dugout during a bench clearing brawl. Mazilli was another addition to a strong bench that included Tim Teuffel, Danny Heep, Howard Johnson, Kevin Mitchell (a future MVP), Mookie Wilson and Ed Hearn who had a decent year backing up Gary Carter in what would be his only major league season.

I believe the keys to the '86 season was a career year from Keith Hernandez (who batted .310 and won a gold glove), Lenny Dykstra coming into his own as a lead off hitter, the platoon of Backman and Teuffel, and the skillfull use of the bench players which enhanced production from the 6, 7 and 8 slots in the order. Also, it was a year where Roger McDowell had double digit wins from the bullpen.

[scotto]

The Skip.
Played for the Kansas City Monarchs from 1938 to 1950 (with two years out for military service during World War II), manager from 1948 to 1955. As manager, the Monarchs won five pennants and two Negro World Series. He signed Jackie Robinson to the Monarchs and helped Robinson transition to the Dodgers. In 1962 he became the first black coach in the majors with the Cubs. He was also a scout and signed Ernie Banks and Lou Brock to their first minor-league contracts.
And don't tell me that Negro Leagues stats don't count.