all time sellouts

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Tequila Cowboy
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

You know I can still remember a time when there were very, very few rock songs used in commercials and those were almost always universally derided by rock fans. Neil Young's famous flip off to commercialism, This Note's For You, was like an anthem for those against the MAN. Now it's come to what "degree" of sellout we're willing to accept. I have very mixed feelings about this. On the one hand traditional sources of revenue have dried up for most rock bands and they need to find new ones. This is understandable, I mean we all need to eat. On the other hand how can you consider yourself a serious artist when your songs are selling cars or jewelry or even video games? I don't know the answer to this question but I don't think it's as simple as some of you guys seem to think.
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Clams »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:You know I can still remember a time when there were very, very few rock songs used in commercials and those were almost always universally derided by rock fans. Neil Young's famous flip off to commercialism, This Note's For You, was like an anthem for those against the MAN. Now it's come to what "degree" of sellout we're willing to accept. I have very mixed feelings about this. On the one hand traditional sources of revenue have dried up for most rock bands and they need to find new ones. This is understandable, I mean we all need to eat. On the other hand how can you consider yourself a serious artist when your songs are selling cars or jewelry or even video games? I don't know the answer to this question but I don't think it's as simple as some of you guys seem to think.



TC, this discussion should really be relocated to your State of the Music Industry thread. The times have changed, the music biz has changed, and (to me, at least) what's considered acceptable in terms of selling one's music has changed. Getting back to my original point, if the Black Keys want to let AT&T use one of their songs in a commercial in order to finance their next record or pay off their last one, I have no problem with it. Like Zip said, it's probably not going to change their sound or adversely affect them. Given the current lay of the land, I'd call it a no brainer from the band's perspective. Let's take it a step further... would you have a problem with some beer or whiskey company using Daddy Needs a Drink in their TV or magazine ads? I think I'd enjoy seeing it and be happy that the band is making some cash.
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by PeterJ »

I am not a musician, nor do I claim to be. I would imagine that if I wrote a song, I would want to expose as many people to that song as possible. Again, there is a difference between writing song in a certain fashion so more people will hear it vs. writing a song true to yourself, and doing whatever you can so more people will hear it. I used to think that selling out was the same as TC did, but as I grow older and more aware of the world, and how things work, selling out has changed for me, as I am sure it has for most of us.
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Zip City »

Also, if your band is getting no radio play (and MTV has been dead for years), why not stick 30 seconds of your song into something that millions will hear? Gotta get the word out somehow.

It's actually pretty cool in the Windows Phone commercial, as they're using the Black Keys song to promote the "surround sound" speakers on the phone. that's a huge compliment, IMO
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Kudzu Guillotine »

Zip City wrote:Also, if your band is getting no radio play (and MTV has been dead for years), why not stick 30 seconds of your song into something that millions will hear? Gotta get the word out somehow.


Or, in the case of Nick Drake's Pink Moon, it can dramatically increase sales of your back catalog and expose you to an entirely new audience.

I used to hate the use of rock songs (well known & otherwise) in commercials but these days it's become a necessary evil.

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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

PeterJ wrote:I am not a musician, nor do I claim to be. I would imagine that if I wrote a song, I would want to expose as many people to that song as possible. Again, there is a difference between writing song in a certain fashion so more people will hear it vs. writing a song true to yourself, and doing whatever you can so more people will hear it. I used to think that selling out was the same as TC did, but as I grow older and more aware of the world, and how things work, selling out has changed for me, as I am sure it has for most of us.


This is why this is such a thorny issue, IMO. We all make compromises in life, there's no question about that, but the use of music in commercials has skyrocketed at such a rate as to question how much is too much. Many years ago I was at a book signing and Q & A when someone asked a question that riled the author. the author told the guy who asked the question "I did not write this book for you and I would prefer you didn't read my work". The guy replied something like too bad I paid for it and now I just bought your new one. The author got up, grabbed the book from the guy and handed him two $20 bills and told him "here's your refund now get the hell out". I really respected the the author for that. My point is if you're the Black Keys, or whatever artistically oriented band do you really want to reach as "wide and audience as possible" just to make more money? When does a compromise become a sellout? Like I said I have no answers, only questions.
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Zip City »

Tequila Cowboy wrote:
PeterJ wrote:I am not a musician, nor do I claim to be. I would imagine that if I wrote a song, I would want to expose as many people to that song as possible. Again, there is a difference between writing song in a certain fashion so more people will hear it vs. writing a song true to yourself, and doing whatever you can so more people will hear it. I used to think that selling out was the same as TC did, but as I grow older and more aware of the world, and how things work, selling out has changed for me, as I am sure it has for most of us.


This is why this is such a thorny issue, IMO. We all make compromises in life, there's no question about that, but the use of music in commercials has skyrocketed at such a rate as to question how much is too much. Many years ago I was at a book signing and Q & A when someone asked a question that riled the author. the author told the guy who asked the question "I did not write this book for you and I would prefer you didn't read my work". The guy replied something like too bad I paid for it and now I just bought your new one. The author got up, grabbed the book from the guy and handed him two $20 bills and told him "here's your refund now get the hell out". I really respected the the author for that. My point is if you're the Black Keys, or whatever artistically oriented band do you really want to reach as "wide and audience as possible" just to make more money? When does a compromise become a sellout? Like I said I have no answers, only questions.


reaching the widest audience isn't necessarily about more money. it's wanting people to hear your music
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Joshua »

I agree. I like the Windows Phone commercial with the Black Keys. However, what if they licensed one of their songs to be used in a "Snuggie" commercial? Would opinions change then? Does the integrity of the product being sold affect the integrity of those selling it? I think most would agree it does, but disagreements would occur at what one deems "a product with integrity".

As a side note, but within the topic, Apple just announced that the Beatles catalog will be available on iTunes.
Last edited by Joshua on Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Zip City wrote:]

reaching the widest audience isn't necessarily about more money. it's wanting people to hear your music


Sure, but that's why I told the story about the author. There are some people great artists probably don't want to hear their music.
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Re: all time sellouts

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Tequila Cowboy wrote:My point is if you're the Black Keys, or whatever artistically oriented band do you really want to reach as "wide and audience as possible" just to make more money? When does a compromise become a sellout? Like I said I have no answers, only questions.

Why is pop radio OK, but commercials or ringtones or music blogs or stadium pa systems or whatever else are evil?
One thing getting overlooked in this discussion is that the whole notion of "media" in 2010 is a far cry from hearing your favorite band on the radio vs. hearing that same song in a commercial circa 1980. So many artists are doing their own development and promotion these days that the entire electronic world has become their potential top-40 playlist.
Now, I'll admit I still get annoyed when a song or band I like suddenly becomes over exposed through a commercial, but that's because I'm selfish about my likes and dislikes and want my hip little corner of the world to stay that way. If I had a band, I'd probably want as many people to hear it as possible.
Like so many other changes for the worse in this brave new cyber- cellular- networked-world, sellout today does not mean the same thing that it meant even a decade ago. Not saying that's good, just saying that's the reality.

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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

scotto wrote:Now, I'll admit I still get annoyed when a song or band I like suddenly becomes over exposed through a commercial, but that's because I'm selfish about my likes and dislikes and want my hip little corner of the world to stay that way.


Well this is probably at the heart of it for me and, I'd dare say, most of us. It's sort of selfish but calling anyone a "sellout" is selfish on it's face. Also I'm not big on change.

scotto wrote:If I had a band, I'd probably want as many people to hear it as possible.


I honestly don't remember if I felt this way or not when I was in bands. I wanted to be cool and I wanted the cool people to like me and my music, but I don't know I felt that way to the exclusion of others.
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by beantownbubba »

This is a complicated subject, but the best i can figure, "sell out" as a hot button epithet relates to the way the music and culture of the 60's were entertwined. The music had extra potency and punch because it defined a generation, drew lines between us and them, and generally was expected to speak for a large group of people in a way that popular music never has done before or since. And since the culture of that time was anti capitalist, anti establishment and anti traditional notions of success, the music and the people who made it were supposed to be that way too. Which raises the question, if the culture's no longer like that, why should we expect our artists to be the last holdouts?

There is also the idea of art as having some purity separate from commerce. This part of the "argument" has been around for quite some time, but the context changes all the time. I haven't heard anyone objecting to the Mona Lisa's face on postcards sold by museums and street stalls. But it's not just "classic" artists: Picasso was a legendary "sell out:" In his later years, he'd put his name on anything if it paid a few bucks. Laurence Olivier's later years were spent appearing in any movie that would have him, in effect selling his name and presence to lend class to otherwise forgettable and sometimes horrible movies. As I recall, he was pretty open about wanting to leave something for his kids, after a lifetime devoted to his not so well paying art.

Many of us first heard the music we love on commercial radio. As Scotto says, how much difference is there between playing songs so that you'll listen to the commercials between them and playing songs in the commercials? I want to say there is a difference, but i'm not sure what it is.

Like TC, i was totally shocked when i first heard the Who's music in a commercial. When Bob Dylan's music and mug appeared in a Victoria's Secret ad, i was stunned. OTOH, as has already been mentioned, i thought it was great that an ad revitalized nick drake's music for a new generation or 3. That it took an ad to do it is kind of sad, but that's a different issue i suppose. There's no question the world has changed and the bar has moved. But where should it be set?

Damned if i know, but i think the answer's floating around in this thread somewhere. I don't think it's as black & white, all or nothing as it was back in the hippie days. But it has to do w/ whether and to what extent the artist bends and twists his art to fit the demands of commerce. But even that is confusing: If an artist writes a song specifically for a commercial, he's clearly doing that as a commercial proposition and doesn't intend that song to represent his "art." So is that a problem? A song from the artist's catalog already exists in its "art" form, so does it matter if somebody takes it and uses it for a commercial purpose and the artist makes a few bucks and gets some exposure? Well, if the song is meaningful in a personal, emotional way to a bunch of people, then yeah, it does matter. But how many songs really reach that level, and how many of those are suitable for commercials?

I've called artists "sell outs" in the past and i'm sure i will do it again in the future. But frankly i have a lot less confidence that i know what i mean by that than i used to.
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Zip City »

There are certainly levels of sell out.

Hearing, say, and original Beatles song in a commercial is one thing. hearing a terrible cover of a Beatles song is another. Hearing a terrible version of a Beatles song, whose lyrics have been changed to sell a product is even another
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Kudzu Guillotine »

As much as I can see an artist licensing out their music for use in a commercial, TV program or movie as a sort of necessary evil these days I still applaud artists such as R.E.M. and Neil Young for refusing to allow their songs to be used in order to push a product. They're probably among the last hold outs left. Even Zeppelin caved to Cadillac which is something I thought I'd never see in my lifetime.

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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Zip City »

REM and Neil Young don't need the money. Of course, neither does The Who or whoever owns the rights to The Beatles catalog. Those are the artists who are truly whoring themselves out. The Black Keys or whoever who have barely had a gold record much less millions in the bank already are a different thing
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Re: all time sellouts

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Kudzu Guillotine wrote:As much as I can see an artist licensing out their music for use in a commercial, TV program or movie as a sort of necessary evil these days I still applaud artists such as R.E.M. and Neil Young for refusing to allow their songs to be used in order to push a product. They're probably among the last hold outs left. Even Zeppelin caved to Cadillac which is something I thought I'd never see in my lifetime.


Although, depending on how you define sellout, Neil Young & REM's music have both been featured in Guitar Hero & Rock Band videogames.

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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Smitty »

Zip City wrote:REM and Neil Young don't need the money. Of course, neither does The Who or whoever owns the rights to The Beatles catalog. Those are the artists who are truly whoring themselves out. The Black Keys or whoever who have barely had a gold record much less millions in the bank already are a different thing


In a recent RS article on "Brothers", the Keys say they gross way over a million a piece per year.
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Zip City »

Smitty wrote:
Zip City wrote:REM and Neil Young don't need the money. Of course, neither does The Who or whoever owns the rights to The Beatles catalog. Those are the artists who are truly whoring themselves out. The Black Keys or whoever who have barely had a gold record much less millions in the bank already are a different thing


In a recent RS article on "Brothers", the Keys say they gross way over a million a piece per year.


I'd love to see how that breaks down across tour revenue, merch, record sales vs. licensing
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Joshua »

Smitty wrote:
Zip City wrote:REM and Neil Young don't need the money. Of course, neither does The Who or whoever owns the rights to The Beatles catalog. Those are the artists who are truly whoring themselves out. The Black Keys or whoever who have barely had a gold record much less millions in the bank already are a different thing


In a recent RS article on "Brothers", the Keys say they gross way over a million a piece per year.


I read that article. Wouldn't have believed that number myself until I read it. Actually, that article is the reason I felt their Zales commercial crossed the line. They aren't struggling artists just trying to keep food on their table.

http://www.zinio.com/pages/RollingStone/May-28-10/416126841/pg-53


Some quotes from it:


"Carney estimates they clear almost $2 million dollars a year"

"They have no use for what Auerbach calls "indie-world" bullshit and make no secret of their desire to play bigger rooms, for more people and more money. Says Carney,"We want to be as big as we can without having to do anything that makes us completely uncomfortable"
So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Kudzu Guillotine »

rlipps wrote:
Kudzu Guillotine wrote:As much as I can see an artist licensing out their music for use in a commercial, TV program or movie as a sort of necessary evil these days I still applaud artists such as R.E.M. and Neil Young for refusing to allow their songs to be used in order to push a product. They're probably among the last hold outs left. Even Zeppelin caved to Cadillac which is something I thought I'd never see in my lifetime.


Although, depending on how you define sellout, Neil Young & REM's music have both been featured in Guitar Hero & Rock Band videogames.


I don't consider that selling out. When Microsoft had a massive relaunch around 10 years ago or so R.E.M. turned down a massive amount of cash for Gates to use "It's the End of the World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)". The Stones were only too happy to step right up to the plate and allow him to use Start Me Up instead. If R.E.M. had caved, I'd definitely consider that selling out. These days, allowing Guitar Hero/Rock Band to use your music is no different than releasing a single to commercial radio. It's yet one of very many ways to have a mass audience hear your music in the 00s.

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Re: all time sellouts

Post by rlipps »

Kudzu Guillotine wrote:
rlipps wrote:
Kudzu Guillotine wrote:As much as I can see an artist licensing out their music for use in a commercial, TV program or movie as a sort of necessary evil these days I still applaud artists such as R.E.M. and Neil Young for refusing to allow their songs to be used in order to push a product. They're probably among the last hold outs left. Even Zeppelin caved to Cadillac which is something I thought I'd never see in my lifetime.


Although, depending on how you define sellout, Neil Young & REM's music have both been featured in Guitar Hero & Rock Band videogames.


I don't consider that selling out. When Microsoft had a massive relaunch around 10 years ago or so R.E.M. turned down a massive amount of cash for Gates to use "It's the End of the World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)". The Stones were only too happy to step right up to the plate and allow him to use Start Me Up instead. If R.E.M. had caved, I'd definitely consider that selling out. These days, allowing Guitar Hero/Rock Band to use your music is no different than releasing a single to commercial radio. It's yet one of very many ways to have a mass audience hear your music in the 00s.


I happen to agree Kudzu, but from the previous discussions we've had on here, I know that several people vehemently disagree.

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Re: all time sellouts

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Joshua wrote:I read that article. Wouldn't have believed that number myself until I read it. Actually, that article is the reason I felt their Zales commercial crossed the line. They aren't struggling artists just trying to keep food on their table.

If true, that just means that they're earning some good dough while they're hot. Can't blame them for that. Next year there'll be a new "it" band and they'll be touring shit hole bars 250 nights a year. It's almost like an NFL contract, you take what you can get now because you never know what next year might bring.



Zip City wrote:REM and Neil Young don't need the money. Of course, neither does The Who or whoever owns the rights to The Beatles catalog. Those are the artists who are truly whoring themselves out. The Black Keys or whoever who have barely had a gold record much less millions in the bank already are a different thing

Couldn't agree more, Zip.
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Re: all time sellouts

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If true, that just means that they're earning some good dough while they're hot. Can't blame them for that. Next year there'll be a new "it" band and they'll be touring shit hole bars 250 nights a year. It's almost like an NFL contract, you take what you can get now because you never know what next year might bring.


But don't you feel that when you're at the top of your game is when you have the luxury to not take every crap deal that comes across your table? Once one is no longer the "it" band is when I would expect them to take advantage of every opportunity in sight. To your NFL analogy, you wouldn't see one of the league's "it" players doing an ad for the check cashing/payday loan store on the corner. They will be doing ads for Nike, Gatorade, etc. When you're on the top of the mountain you have the luxury to say "no", but it's when you're on your way down that you may have to do some things you aren't proud of.
So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: all time sellouts

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But once they aren't the it band, those opportunities probably won't present themselves.

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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Clams »

Joshua wrote:
If true, that just means that they're earning some good dough while they're hot. Can't blame them for that. Next year there'll be a new "it" band and they'll be touring shit hole bars 250 nights a year. It's almost like an NFL contract, you take what you can get now because you never know what next year might bring.


But don't you feel that when you're at the top of your game is when you have the luxury to not take every crap deal that comes across your table? Once one is no longer the "it" band is when I would expect them to take advantage of every opportunity in sight. To your NFL analogy, you wouldn't see one of the league's "it" players doing an ad for the check cashing/payday loan store on the corner. They will be doing ads for Nike, Gatorade, etc. When you're on the top of the mountain you have the luxury to say "no", but it's when you're on your way down that you may have to do some things you aren't proud of.



This conversation started, I believe, with a mention of a Black Keys' song in a Windows ad (or maybe it was a national Zales ad). Either way, that's not too shabby.
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Joshua »

I have no problem with the Windows ad. I think it's a great commercial. I also like that some of their songs have been used in some great shows on HBO (Eastbound and Down). However, I felt the Zales ad was beneath them(for lack of a better term). Completely my opinion of course and very valid points have been made to the contrary.
So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Clams »

Joshua wrote:I have no problem with the Windows ad. I think it's a great commercial. I also like that some of their songs have been used in some great shows on HBO (Eastbound and Down). However, I felt the Zales ad was beneath them(for lack of a better term). Completely my opinion of course and very valid points have been made to the contrary.



Maybe they got free jewelry and diamonds for their moms, sisters and girlfriends/wives. ;)
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Zip City »

Clams wrote:
Joshua wrote:I have no problem with the Windows ad. I think it's a great commercial. I also like that some of their songs have been used in some great shows on HBO (Eastbound and Down). However, I felt the Zales ad was beneath them(for lack of a better term). Completely my opinion of course and very valid points have been made to the contrary.



Maybe they got free jewelry and diamonds for their moms, sisters and girlfriends/wives. ;)


mmmmmmmmmmmm............mall quality diamonds..............
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Joshua »

Clams wrote:
Joshua wrote:I have no problem with the Windows ad. I think it's a great commercial. I also like that some of their songs have been used in some great shows on HBO (Eastbound and Down). However, I felt the Zales ad was beneath them(for lack of a better term). Completely my opinion of course and very valid points have been made to the contrary.



Maybe they got free jewelry and diamonds for their moms, sisters and girlfriends/wives. ;)



Game, set, and match to you sir. :lol:
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Re: all time sellouts

Post by Gator McKlusky »

Just about shit my pants the other day when I heard the Gang of Four in (I think it was) an X-Box commercial. Now that is the ultimate sell-out.
Looks like a bunch of little whiny fucksticks to me

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