Music and Internet Ethics

[Tequila Cowboy]

David Lowery just posted an excellent piece on this. As someone who uses Spotify I think about these issues a lot vis a vis my own ethics in the matter. The way he frames the Spotify issue may have me rethinkng my stance. I certainly support music monetarily in various ways but the issue is am I doing enough? Am I part of the problem? Anyway read Lowery's thoughts on these issues:

http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/201 ... /#comments

[rip_this_joint]

I was just coming to post the same article. Lowery is always very articulate when discussing this subject. I have always read that Spotify pays next to nothing to the artists and that is the reason I have never signed up. I get the convenience but I will always use Pandora because they do a better job of compensating the artists.

I loved this quote.

"Congratulations, your generation is the first generation in history to rebel by unsticking it to the man and instead sticking it to the weirdo freak musicians!"

[RMD]

I'm old school. I buy all my music in physical form, unless I buy a live download of a show.

[Zip City]

I buy everything digitally, but the key is I buy it. Spotify is a great way to preview albums before I buy them. I never went the bit torrent route.

[Duke Silver]

As a consumer of music I feel kinda stuck right now. I like physical media, but buying CDs in 2012 is pointless; there's something unsatisfying about buying MP3s; vinyl w/ a download is a nice compromise, but prohibitively expensive. So I use Spotify ($10/mo version) and buy vinyl whenever I'm able to.

[RMD]

Why do you feel buying cd 's is pointless?

[Tequila Cowboy]

Why do you feel buying cd 's is pointless?

Well last year a rumor was started, purportedly by the industry itself, that the CD would cease being manufactured at the end of 2012. While that was false it was also a test balloon to see what the future held for the format. Any way you look at it the CD is on borrowed time. I buy very few anymore myself and those I do I immediately rip to MP3 as I dont even have a player except in my car.

[Iowan]

I've been buying music off of Amazon.

I use Spotify to preview stuff/listen at work, and the stuff I like, I buy. Regarding the article's original premise, I've completely quit stealing music since I got Spotify. I knew I needed to get back to buying more stuff, but it makes it so much easier for me to buy music knowing I like the album, and Spotify allows me to do that.

[rip_this_joint]

Except Spotify is pretty much stealing music. The artist receives almost nothing from Spotify.

[Clams]

Except Spotify is pretty much stealing music.

No it most definitley isn't. It's perfectly legal, and the artist wouldn't be on there if he/she/they didn't agree to it first.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Except Spotify is pretty much stealing music. The artist receives almost nothing from Spotify.

Agreed except if you use it to preview music you later buy I think it is a decent tool. I also use it to play things I own but don't carry with me on portable media, and I don't consider that stealing. All that being said I am reconsidering my Spotify subscription.

[Steve French]

Why do you feel buying cd 's is pointless?

Well last year a rumor was started, purportedly by the industry itself, that the CD would cease being manufactured at the end of 2012. While that was false it was also a test balloon to see what the future held for the format. Any way you look at it the CD is on borrowed time. I buy very few anymore myself and those I do I immediately rip to MP3 as I dont even have a player except in my car.

How do you listen to music at home? (all vinyl all the time?)

thanks for the link to Lowery's article. it has clarified a lot of my thinking. I've never been comfortable downloading music but it irks me that a CD in a store is the same price today as it was in 1988 (in dollar terms, though of course that dollar buys less today)

[Duke Silver]

Except Spotify is pretty much stealing music. The artist receives almost nothing from Spotify.

Bullshit. The same licenses that Lowery calls out services like Grooveshark for not obtaining are used by Spotify, Pandora, and other LEGAL streaming services. Is it my fault that the record companies have put themselves in such a horrible bargaining position by spending a decade with their heads in the sand, suing the shit of out their customers rather than, I don't know, trying to adapt to a rapidly changing marketplace?

[Shakespeare]

Great article. But I'm a bit curious what Lowery would have to say when used CDs/records are factored in. I buy a lot of music, new and from the artist if possible, but the majority of my musical purchases come from great used record shops around me. My own personal arguments against downloading everything is that I want to support the artist and have a physical product to collect, and I know secondhand purchases don't directly support the artists themselves, although they can lead to falling in love with a band and buying their stuff directly from them in the future. I hear a lot of artists praise the record store experience, so it's hard to believe they'd object to secondhand purchases of their stuff, but I don't know. I can't say I feel conflicted about it (I've found too many otherwise unheard gems in used shops to stop relying on them to discover new things) but it seems like an odd gray area in the buying music debate.

As for MP3s, I've never paid for them (unless you count a download coming immediately after ordering a CD) and don't quite feel right doing it. I need a physical thing if I'm gonna pay money. So far I've never been in a situation where a download is the only legal way to buy music, but it will always be my very last option.

[Iowan]

Except Spotify is pretty much stealing music. The artist receives almost nothing from Spotify.

So is Spotify worse than listening on youtube? The artist doesn't receive "almost nothing" from Youtube, they receive actual nothing. How the hell is someone supposed to figure out if they like music before buying it?

[beantownbubba]

Buying used discs is perfectly appropriate (not "merely" legal). In addition to encouraging new finds and supporting local retailers who in turn help support local and regional music scenes, the knowledge that one can sell albums for either cash or credit helps encourage some people to buy full price albums in the first place (i.e. the existence of a secondary market supports the primary market and doesn't particularly detract from it).

I've been having my own doubts about Spotify ever since i signed up: The biggest problem w/ buying music is how often you're given the choice of buying the music unheard or not buying at all. Spotify changes that which is a HUGE plus for the music fan. I wish it was around for my entire music listening and buying lifetime. BUT if i'm being honest i know that it results in me buying fewer albums because there are so many that are marginal: Artists i like, decent enough albums but i know i'll never listen to them regularly and given the choice between paying 15ish bucks for essentially "archival" or completist purposes or paying nothing and having the music available to me for free on the off chance that i'll want to listen to it again, well, that quickly becomes no contest. The effect might not have been so pronounced at other times in my life when discretionary cash was easier to come by, but there would have been an effect even then, and at this time and place, it's pronounced. FWIW, i speak as someone w/ an all-format music collection numbering into many thousands.

What to do about the problems this creates for working musicians is another issue entirely: I don't think the music buying public is responsible for fixing the music industry's problems. I've said for years that given reasonable cost-effective choices, the great majority of people will pay at least something for at least a good portion of their music. But the industry has never really given us that choice, not in formats music lovers want anyway (itunes and the like have their uses and obviously millions and millions of copies of songs have been sold there; It's not the complete solution but it is part of it). Right now i've STILL got the choice between paying full price for something i've never heard or listening to it for free. Not even the most coked out head up his ass music executive nervously waiting for a pink slip could possibly expect me to fork over the money. In the meantime, whole generations are growing up believing that music just arrives, magically and free, which is a huge problem in the making.

As an interested outsider for many many years (and one who has from time to time attempted to suggest "better mousetraps" to the industry), I have no problem saying that the industry brought the current catastrophe on itself, mostly on the backs of people like me who put up w/ its bullshit because we love the music so much, so it's hard to get too excited about their problems. Obviously not all artists today benefited equally (or at all) from the good old days, but still, as between me (consumer) and them (product seller), it's on them to figure it out. I'll do my part but don't expect me to lead the way.

[Bill in CT]

It's a great article. Thanks for posting it, TC.

I'm able to listen to samples of the music I buy without Spotify. I listen to samples on artists' websites or YouTube or Amazon or my favorite record store's website, http://www.aquariusrecords.org (the oldest independent record store in San Francisco).

I don't need to listen to a whole album to know whether or not I want to buy it. Do you have to read a whole book before you know if you want to buy it? Do you have to watch a whole movie before you know if you want to go see it or rent it? I don't.

I'm with those who say they like to have a physical object and not just music files on an electronic device.

[Tequila Cowboy]

How do you listen to music at home? (all vinyl all the time?)

No, my turntable is in my upstairs den and I'm often in my downstairs den/living room. Down here I have everything based around my personal laptop (as opposed to my work laptop). I have it hooked up to my big screen TV & stereo system and use the TV as a monitor. I usually have iTunes or Spotify running.

[beantownbubba]

It's a great article. Thanks for posting it, TC.

I'm able to listen to samples of the music I buy without Spotify. I listen to samples on artists' websites or YouTube or Amazon or my favorite record store's website, http://www.aquariusrecords.org (the oldest independent record store in San Francisco).

I don't need to listen to a whole album to know whether or not I want to buy it. Do you have to read a whole book before you know if you want to buy it? Do you have to watch a whole movie before you know if you want to go see it or rent it? I don't.

I'm with those who say they like to have a physical object and not just music files on an electronic device.

I am absolutely one who prefers the physical object (and [wishful thinking] legible liner notes and pics and the occasional superior packaging), that's what makes the current environment so frustrating and difficult. I want a way to buy music w/out feeling ripped off.

We also should distinguish between "the spotify problem" which is what we're mostly talking about here, and the free download problem, which is mostly what Lowery is talking about. The ethical issues implicated by the latter are far greater than the former, which doesn't seem to me to be an especially ethical issue at all. FWIW, I'm not w/out sin, but as a general rule, I try not to download illegally. The biggest issue for me is whether to download leaked albums and my personal guideline is to do so only if I know i'm going to buy the album when it's released. I've been very good (but not perfect) about that.

I'm all for alternative ways to sample music before buying. Right now, Spotify is legal and it's centralized so it's easier, but if artists want to opt out of spotify as not being economically worthwhile and offer samples on their own websites, that seems like a legit alternative w/ promise. I suspect that even a Luddite like me can be "trained" to check artists' websites more systematically.

While the book & movie analogy is not totally unfair, i don't think it's especially accurate either because they're very different experiences and the media/art forms are "used" in very different ways. Don't know whether i'm representative, but here's one big reader's recent experience w/ book buying: I've bought one, maybe 2 books in the past year for personal use (i.e. not as a present) and that was because i had nothing to read as i was getting on a plane. During that time i've taken out over 70 (100?) books from the library, mostly in reaction to the skyrocketing cost of books, espy paperbacks.

[Steve French]

I'm a bit curious what Lowery would have to say when used CDs/records are factored in. I buy a lot of music, new and from the artist if possible, but the majority of my musical purchases come from great used record shops around me.

I wondered the same thing because I buy a lot of used records and CDs and DVDs.

[Steve French]

How do you listen to music at home? (all vinyl all the time?)

No, my turntable is in my upstairs den and I'm often in my downstairs den/living room. Down here I have everything based around my personal laptop (as opposed to my work laptop). I have it hooked up to my big screen TV & stereo system and use the TV as a monitor. I usually have iTunes or Spotify running.

Ah interesting. I am embarrassed by how little my "Big" stereo and speakers get used these days (and the vinyl collection): my music listening tends to be background at work (though I do not regret buying decent speakers for the work PC) or in the car (I burn CDs for that) and I have some stuff on my phone. But the brains of my electronic music files is the ext HDD I have it all ripped to. 95% legit, too, I'm happy to say.


on another topic: do artists make more if I buy a CD from their site or if I buy a T shirt?



(It is of course a trick question: usually I buy both)

[Tequila Cowboy]

I have rarely gotten music without paying for it. Back in the "I'll burn you a CD" days people would give me something to check out and I'd invariably buy it. Today if I listen to something on Spotify and truly dig it I usually download it directly from the artist. I really don't feel guilty for the way I use Spotify, but by being a subscriber I am helping to keep them in business and their way of doing business is to rip off the artist. My subscription just renewed so I'm not uninstalling it quite yet but I'm fairly certain I will. Personally I wish they would just charge more and pay the artists, but of course they won't do that. So here is a service I like and legally pay for but of course it's the online equivalent of shopping at Walmart and I fell for it.

I will do whatever I can to help musicians make a buck. I go to between 20-30 live shows a year, I buy deluxe vinyl packages and when I really like a band (DBT, Centro-Matic, Two Cow Garage among others) I buy multiple copies of the CD on release day and give them away to people who haven't heard them yet. I rarely even keep one for myself. Despite all this however, I'm not solving any problems. Sad really.

[Erdlivz]

Why do you feel buying cd 's is pointless?

I haven't purchased a CD in years. I've had some lumped into record and download packages. I see what he means by pointless. I look for vinyl and with that comes a digital download usually. To me CDs have become the red-headed step child. Records are being offered more and fits my needs. If I didn't prefer vinyl then I'd purchase CDs.

[Shakespeare]

I don't get how CDs get brushed aside as such an inferior product when they more than solve some of the biggest cons (at least for me) of vinyl records. CDs are way cheaper, way easier to store, usually have just as much in terms of packaging (though smaller, obviously), can be played at home and on the road, and still sound really good in a decent stereo system.

I know vinyl has a distinct sound that many people love, and there's the vinyl "experience" of flipping the record and whatnot, but CDs remain far and away the most practical form of music in my mind. I buy a lot of older music on vinyl but all of my new release purchases will be CDs. Add the fact that they're so cheap and easy for artists and labels to produce and I think they'll be around for a lot longer than some people seem to think.

[Kudzu Guillotine]

Unfortunately no matter how much of a case David Lowery makes and no matter how clearly he spells it out, there are still going to be some people that feel they are entitled to free music. Sadly there's a whole bunch of folks out there that just don't give a shit and given the option, they're going to steal music rather than trying to put a little dough in their favorite musicians' back pocket. I've seen this from even the most diehard music fans. For whatever reason they feel the music is owed to them and if they don't have to, they're not going to fork over one red cent for it. Fuck those people.

Even though I haven't used Spotfiy, I know a lot of people that do and they seem to swear by it. I'm sure I'd like it too if I were to give it a try but so far I haven't. I never in a million years thought I'd ever say this but as it stands, my options for listening to music are so wide open that I've found all of the choices a bit overwhelming. At present I'm content to listen to local radio, satellite radio and iTunes to listen to various radio stations from around the globe for my new music fix.

In regards to having the option of listening to an album before you buy it, Record Bar used to have a program called No Risk Records where you could try out a new record for a limited time and return it if you didn't like it. Of course that only applied to limited releases (usually by breaking artists) but I thought it was a pretty good deal. Plus, the price was right. Also, lots of records did (and still do) have listening stations.

I'm not sure if I understand the reselling thing completely but I seem to remember Garth Brooks catching a rash of shit when he wanted to receive royalties from his albums that were resold in pawnshops.

[rip_this_joint]

Except Spotify is pretty much stealing music.

No it most definitley isn't. It's perfectly legal, and the artist wouldn't be on there if he/she/they didn't agree to it first.

Really? Legal or not 1/10th of a penny per play is stealing. Throw in the fact that most of the artists never even see their cut. You can justify it however you like but to me it's robbery. I find plenty of good music on sites/forums just like this. I am not holier than though and claiming I have never downloaded music from questionable sites before but to insinuate that because Spotify is "legal"(it doesn't meet the same royalty standards as set forth by Congress for Pandora and others) it's ok is BS IMHO.

[Steve French]

I wont sign up to Spotify because i apparently have to link to stalk book.

and I am on the verge of deleting stalk book entirely

[Duke Silver]

I wont sign up to Spotify because i apparently have to link to stalk book.

and I am on the verge of deleting stalk book entirely

You log in with your facebook account, but that's about the extent of it. You can choose to share every song you listen to with your friends, but that's optional.

That social marketing aspect is another benefit of Spotify not included in the royalty rate. I've seen friends start listening to some of the music I listen to based on the fact it showed up in my Spotify feed.

[beantownbubba]

Except Spotify is pretty much stealing music.

No it most definitley isn't. It's perfectly legal, and the artist wouldn't be on there if he/she/they didn't agree to it first.

Really? Legal or not 1/10th of a penny per play is stealing. Throw in the fact that most of the artists never even see their cut. You can justify it however you like but to me it's robbery. ...to insinuate that because Spotify is "legal"(it doesn't meet the same royalty standards as set forth by Congress for Pandora and others) it's ok is BS IMHO.

Interesting point.

To me the key issue is not the amount of the royalties that Spotify does or doesn't pay, but the fact that the record companies and artists grant the licenses to Spotify. I can't get around that. To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, nobody can take advantage of you unless you let them. I'd much prefer that the artists get their due, but why is it my fault if they choose to give away their product?

[Flying Rabbit]

Except Spotify is pretty much stealing music.

No it most definitley isn't. It's perfectly legal, and the artist wouldn't be on there if he/she/they didn't agree to it first.

Really? Legal or not 1/10th of a penny per play is stealing. Throw in the fact that most of the artists never even see their cut. You can justify it however you like but to me it's robbery. I find plenty of good music on sites/forums just like this. I am not holier than though and claiming I have never downloaded music from questionable sites before but to insinuate that because Spotify is "legal"(it doesn't meet the same royalty standards as set forth by Congress for Pandora and others) it's ok is BS IMHO.

First, it is illegal for them not to get their royalties (even a few pennies).

As a spotify user, I feel compelled to bring up some points. As Clams mentioned, if a label or artist doesn't want to be represented they don't have to include their albums. Its not like Grooveshark or other sites/programs which pull from websites. So, when you see an artist on spotify, it either means they've decided to give it a run or they've decided its worth putting it there.

Can I ask you a question? Do you listen to the radio? Or probably more appropriately did you listen to the radio? Because guess what, an artist gets about the same amount of money in royalties from being played on the radio as they do being played on Spotify (actually maybe less on radio).

Most people that use spotify are using it as a tool to find new music. Or in my case, using it as both a discovery tool and a virtual harddrive of my music. Because, guess what? Those albums/songs that spotify pays 1/100th of a penny for a play for--they'd be getting 0% of a penny if I didn't have spotify. Mainly because I take more chances on spotify to listen to a record than going to store and buying it, note unheard. If I like an album/song heard on spotify, I buy it.

Which, brings up another point. You seem to want to support artists and make sure they're paid. That's admirable. You say you find music through other sources. How much $ does an artist get from a play through soundcloud? Youtube? Other ways you'd have to hear a song? I'm willing to guess its about the same as spotify.

And, here's the thing--at least spotify is offering direct links to buy the music you're listening to right there on the interface.