oilpiers wrote:The simple truth is you can expect less sympathetic reactions from the medical field, social service departments,law enforcement,fire fighters, mental health, and even substance abuse professionals. It is not really callousnes, but a perspective where you see so much self induced destruction where literally that person is the only one that can make a difference. You also witness first hand the trail of destruction which leaves the real innocent victims in its wake.
I sincerly hope you are doing well. There is no implied hostility in what I say, just my perspective. I have had plenty of friends seriously affected by substance abuse, several die.
I think thats pretty much the defination of callousness if you ask me.
Those who help with the results of bad shit of any sort on a day to day basis have to be actively, meanly callous before it slips from a useful state of mind into a moral deficiency, in my opinion. It's just another sort of damage and they get my sympathy, too.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be
John A Arkansawyer wrote:Those who help with the results of bad shit of any sort on a day to day basis have to be actively, meanly callous before it slips from a useful state of mind into a moral deficiency, in my opinion. It's just another sort of damage and they get my sympathy, too.
I think there is a very fine line here. I used to date a girl who worked in social services mainly dealing with addicts and the welfare of their children. She was, and is, one of the sweetest, kindest, most compassionate people I have ever known. She really did make a difference, but she couldn't eat regularly, had difficulty sleeping and was often an emotional mess. She knew that she had two options, to steel herself against it and build up an emotional shell, or stop doing what she was doing and find a different career. She chose the latter because she didn't think the job was worth losing her humanity. Difficult questions, difficult choices.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
oilpiers wrote:I will go a little against the grain here. This is what I posted on Facebook a few hours ago........ "80 children were killed yesterday by one gunman, and I see nothing posted by anyone I know. Yet there are 6 threads in the past few hours on Amy Winehouse, a possibly talented drug addict. Far from tragic when compared to what happened in Norway."
Pretty much anyone who works in law enforcement, mental health, or substance abuse fields would likely feel the same way. (PS 30 years in the field)
I think if those cops, mental health workers and substance abuse recovery specialists really feel that way then they are in the wrong fucking job. All three of those lines of work require compassion, and If that's how they feel then they have been working in a high stress field for way too long and they should seek emplyment elsewhere.
You are very naive. My job, which I will be at in an hour, is to evaluate people for involuntary psychiatric hospitalization. I work with all the types of agencies I listed.I see people who are mentally ill, substance abusing, personality disordered, and mostly suicidal. I am a very compassionate person, use critical thinking, and look for any solid reason not to take someones rights away. From what I have seen about her the past 5 years, she was on a clear path of self destruction. Does that mean she deserved it? No. Does that mean she is fully responsible? Clearly. If you think I need another profession you should speak to the majority of people and their families I have worked with. They would probably disagree with you.
If having sympathy and compassion make me naive, then I guess I'm naive. I stand by my original statement. You work in a high stress environment and It has obviously gotten to you. Maybe you could go work at Sears.
sactochris wrote:If having sympathy and compassion make me naive, then I guess I'm naive. I stand by my original statement. You work in a high stress environment and It has obviously gotten to you. Maybe you could go work at Sears.
What a bunch of needlessly hostile, self righteous, soapbox bullshit. You go fucking work at Sears.
Its clear that you have no idea about what you are professing such strong opinions about. When a job A) involves caring for a lot of people who place no value on themselves and no value on you as the provider and B) comes with a steady stream of vicarious traumatization to you, you simple can't afford to be emotionally involved with everyone you encounter. Its not callousness and its not whatever idea of disregard for one's clients/patients that you seem to have cooked up. The shields need to be up most of the time and you need to ration your emotional involvement carefully so that you can continue to do your job effectively. Folks who don't know how to do this have as little business working in these fields as folks who are genuinely callous and without compassion. I assure you, when folks who work in human services do not have to prioritize their own safety over being openly sympathetic and compassionate they are some of the most caring people you may ever encounter.
But based on how you've chosen to go about this conversation, it's clear that you know nothing about empathy or compassion in the first place so I'm just wasting my time.
Saw a great retweet today along the lines of "Your grief protocol: You must expend 60% of your grief on Somalia, 35% on Norway and 5% on Amy Winehouse."
We feel what we feel. I'm not more upset about Amy than Norway, quite the contrary, but that's what the thread was about! And young people, or any people, really, who destroy themselves = infinitely sad to me.
Matt playing like an evil motherfucker w/ rhythm with a capital MPLAEMWR.
Agree with me or not, but I think this thread took a turn that was good. Lots of interesting ideas shared. Some may have even made others think. Too bad some things look so hostile in writing, even if it wasn't meant to be anything than expressing ideas.
Never thought I'd be quoting Russell Brand, but I think this needs to be shared.
For Amy
When you love someone who suffers from the disease of addiction you await the phone call. There will be a phone call. The sincere hope is that the call will be from the addict themselves, telling you they've had enough, that they're ready to stop, ready to try something new. Of course though, you fear the other call, the sad nocturnal chime from a friend or relative telling you it's too late, she's gone.
Frustratingly it's not a call you can ever make - it must be received. It is impossible to intervene.
I've known Amy Winehouse for years. When I first met her around Camden she was just some twit in a pink satin jacket shuffling round bars with mutual friends, most of whom were in cool Indie bands or peripheral Camden figures Withnail-ing their way through life on impotent charisma. Carl Barrat told me that "Winehouse" (which I usually called her and got a kick out of cos it's kind of funny to call a girl by her surname) was a jazz singer, which struck me as a bizarrely anomalous in that crowd. To me with my limited musical knowledge this information placed Amy beyond an invisible boundary of relevance; "Jazz singer? She must be some kind of eccentric" I thought. I chatted to her anyway though, she was after all, a girl, and she was sweet and peculiar but most of all vulnerable.
I was myself at that time barely out of rehab and was thirstily seeking less complicated women so I barely reflected on the now glaringly obvious fact that Winehouse and I shared an affliction, the disease of addiction. All addicts, regardless of the substance or their social status share a consistent and obvious symptom; they're not quite present when you talk to them. They communicate to you through a barely discernible but un-ignorable veil. Whether a homeless smack head troubling you for 50p for a cup of tea or a coked-up, pinstriped exec foaming off about his "speedboat" there is a toxic aura that prevents connection. They have about them the air of elsewhere, that they're looking through you to somewhere else they'd rather be. And of course they are. The priority of any addict is to anaesthetise the pain of living to ease the passage of the day with some purchased relief.
From time to time I'd bump into Amy she had good banter so we could chat a bit and have a laugh, she was "a character" but that world was riddled with half cut, doped up chancers, I was one of them, even in early recovery I was kept afloat only by clinging to the bodies of strangers so Winehouse, but for her gentle quirks didn't especially register.
Then she became massively famous and I was pleased to see her acknowledged but mostly baffled because I'd not experienced her work and this not being the 1950's I wondered how a "jazz singer" had achieved such cultural prominence. I wasn't curious enough to do anything so extreme as listen to her music or go to one of her gigs, I was becoming famous myself at the time and that was an all consuming experience. It was only by chance that I attended a Paul Weller gig at the Roundhouse that I ever saw her live.
I arrived late and as I made my way to the audience through the plastic smiles and plastic cups I heard the rolling, wondrous resonance of a female vocal. Entering the space I saw Amy on stage with Weller and his band; and then the awe. The awe that envelops when witnessing a genius. From her oddly dainty presence that voice, a voice that seemed not to come from her but from somewhere beyond even Billie and Ella, from the font of all greatness. A voice that was filled with such power and pain that it was at once entirely human yet laced with the divine. My ears, my mouth, my heart and mind all instantly opened. Winehouse. Winehouse? Winehouse! That twerp, all eyeliner and lager dithering up Chalk Farm Road under a back-combed barnet, the lips that I'd only seen clenching a fishwife fag and dribbling curses now a portal for this holy sound. So now I knew. She wasn't just some hapless wannabe, yet another pissed up nit who was never gonna make it, nor was she even a ten-a-penny-chanteuse enjoying her fifteen minutes. She was a f**king genius.
Shallow fool that I am I now regarded her in a different light, the light that blazed down from heaven when she sang. That lit her up now and a new phase in our friendship began. She came on a few of my TV and radio shows, I still saw her about but now attended to her with a little more interest. Publicly though, Amy increasingly became defined by her addiction. Our media though is more interested in tragedy than talent, so the ink began to defect from praising her gift to chronicling her downfall. The destructive personal relationships, the blood soaked ballet slippers, the aborted shows, that youtube madness with the baby mice. In the public perception this ephemeral tittle-tattle replaced her timeless talent. This and her manner in our occasional meetings brought home to me the severity of her condition. Addiction is a serious disease; it will end with jail, mental institutions or death. I was 27 years old when through the friendship and help of Chip Somers of the treatment centre, Focus12 I found recovery, through Focus I was introduced to support fellowships for alcoholics and drug addicts which are very easy to find and open to anybody with a desire to stop drinking and without which I would not be alive.
Now Amy Winehouse is dead, like many others whose unnecessary deaths have been retrospectively romanticised, at 27 years old. Whether this tragedy was preventable or not is now irrelevant. It is not preventable today. We have lost a beautiful and talented woman to this disease. Not all addicts have Amy's incredible talent. Or Kurt's or Jimi's or Janis's, some people just get the affliction. All we can do is adapt the way we view this condition, not as a crime or a romantic affectation but as a disease that will kill. We need to review the way society treats addicts, not as criminals but as sick people in need of care. We need to look at the way our government funds rehabilitation. It is cheaper to rehabilitate an addict than to send them to prison, so criminalisation doesn't even make economic sense. Not all of us know someone with the incredible talent that Amy had but we all know drunks and junkies and they all need help and the help is out there. All they have to do is pick up the phone and make the call. Or not. Either way, there will be a phone call.
That was very moving, if curiously bereft of proper punctuation.
Everyone has lost somebody in their lives, unless you are very young. Some of you know that I recently lost a friend of 20 years to suicide. And reading this article, I was struck again by that unbelieving feeling, "how can it be that I will really never see her or speak to her again?" It's still hard sometimes to credit. I mean, my father visited me in a dream last night, and I still think all the time of something I want to tell him, or music I want him to hear. So what I get to thinking about when I read about an Amy Winehouse, or those children killed in Norway, is those waves of disbelief and grief running through every breath their families are taking today. I can't stop thinking about their mothers.
Obviously, I need a nap.
Matt playing like an evil motherfucker w/ rhythm with a capital MPLAEMWR.
one belt loop wrote:That was very moving, if curiously bereft of proper punctuation.
Everyone has lost somebody in their lives, unless you are very young. Some of you know that I recently lost a friend of 20 years to suicide. And reading this article, I was struck again by that unbelieving feeling, "how can it be that I will really never see her or speak to her again?" It's still hard sometimes to credit. I mean, my father visited me in a dream last night, and I still think all the time of something I want to tell him, or music I want him to hear. So what I get to thinking about when I read about an Amy Winehouse, or those children killed in Norway, is those waves of disbelief and grief running through every breath their families are taking today. I can't stop thinking about their mothers.
Obviously, I need a nap.
when I was reading it I heard it in Russell Brand's voice. He's a fine one to talk about a straggly back combed barnet!.
sactochris wrote:If having sympathy and compassion make me naive, then I guess I'm naive. I stand by my original statement. You work in a high stress environment and It has obviously gotten to you. Maybe you could go work at Sears.
The shields need to be up most of the time and you need to ration your emotional involvement carefully so that you can continue to do your job effectively. Folks who don't know how to do this have as little business working in these fields as folks who are genuinely callous and without compassion.
You make a very good point. I just don't feel that you need to be emotionally involved to show sympathy and compassion.
sactochris wrote:If having sympathy and compassion make me naive, then I guess I'm naive. I stand by my original statement. You work in a high stress environment and It has obviously gotten to you. Maybe you could go work at Sears.
What a bunch of needlessly hostile, self righteous, soapbox bullshit. You go fucking work at Sears.
Its clear that you have no idea about what you are professing such strong opinions about. When a job A) involves caring for a lot of people who place no value on themselves and no value on you as the provider and B) comes with a steady stream of vicarious traumatization to you, you simple can't afford to be emotionally involved with everyone you encounter. Its not callousness and its not whatever idea of disregard for one's clients/patients that you seem to have cooked up. The shields need to be up most of the time and you need to ration your emotional involvement carefully so that you can continue to do your job effectively. Folks who don't know how to do this have as little business working in these fields as folks who are genuinely callous and without compassion. I assure you, when folks who work in human services do not have to prioritize their own safety over being openly sympathetic and compassionate they are some of the most caring people you may ever encounter.
But based on how you've chosen to go about this conversation, it's clear that you know nothing about empathy or compassion in the first place so I'm just wasting my time.
200000000X
Last edited by The Black Canary on Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
so what is it like living with your mommy again BWAHAHAHAHAH
I think a lot of the anger towards Winehouse stems from the perception that her success (celebrity or financial) should have given her more resources or more motivation to overcome her addiction. So many poor people with addiction problems who don't have the access to the help she had, yet she still threw her life away.
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever
Ryan Adams: "It makes me angry to think after years of being a punching bag in the press that it takes the death of Amy Winehouse for her art and life to be treated with any amount of respect. For every slurred line or stumble paraded in newspapers or across the internet & tv there was a real person with real issues who's life and works were marginalized in order to exploit her sickness. What a shame."
Ryan Adams: "It makes me angry to think after years of being a punching bag in the press that it takes the death of Amy Winehouse for her art and life to be treated with any amount of respect. For every slurred line or stumble paraded in newspapers or across the internet & tv there was a real person with real issues who's life and works were marginalized in order to exploit her sickness. What a shame."
Only thing is, Ryan brought a lot of that abuse from the press upon himself. I can't say the same is true of Amy Winehouse.
Ryan Adams: "It makes me angry to think after years of being a punching bag in the press that it takes the death of Amy Winehouse for her art and life to be treated with any amount of respect. For every slurred line or stumble paraded in newspapers or across the internet & tv there was a real person with real issues who's life and works were marginalized in order to exploit her sickness. What a shame."
Ok, I've been very sympathetic towards Winehouse's life and tragic death, but this is a bit of a stretch. The woman won Grammy awards, she had a lot of fans. Not all of the accolades were posthumous. We also shouldn't ignore the fact that she did bear some responsibility for her own actions which included using her struggle with drugs a public persona. Make no mistake, she was as much a part of that as anyone. Was that exploited by others? Yes. Did entertainment media feast on this woman's weakness? Absolutely, but she had opportunities to straighten her life out and she didn't take them. Addiction is a terrible thing but in the end the only person who can fight it is the individual themselves.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
Ryan Adams: "It makes me angry to think after years of being a punching bag in the press that it takes the death of Amy Winehouse for her art and life to be treated with any amount of respect. For every slurred line or stumble paraded in newspapers or across the internet & tv there was a real person with real issues who's life and works were marginalized in order to exploit her sickness. What a shame."
Ok, I've been very sympathetic towards Winehouse's life and tragic death, but this is a bit of a stretch. The woman won Grammy awards, she had a lot of fans. Not all of the accolades were posthumous. We also shouldn't ignore the fact that she did bear some responsibility for her own actions which included using her struggle with drugs a public persona. Make no mistake, she was as much a part of that as anyone. Was that exploited by others? Yes. Did entertainment media feast on this woman's weakness? Absolutely, but she had opportunities to straighten her life out and she didn't take them. Addiction is a terrible thing but in the end the only person who can fight it is the individual themselves.
But she did take them. It's documented she went to rehab many times - not every celebrity that goes to rehab is probably genuinely trying to get help, but I don't think we have the right to question her intentions. To say she didn't try to get help just isn't true.
I didn't say she didn't try. Are you saying she bore no responsibility for her death? Because that isn't true either. As I said I have sympathy but holding her completely blameless for the tragedy that ultimately befell her is unrealistic.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
oilpiers wrote:Agree with me or not, but I think this thread took a turn that was good. Lots of interesting ideas shared. Some may have even made others think. Too bad some things look so hostile in writing, even if it wasn't meant to be anything than expressing ideas.
I wasn't trying to be hostile. I appreciate that you realize that things often seem hostile in writing when they weren't meant to be taken that way. Cheers!
Tequila Cowboy wrote:I didn't say she didn't try. Are you saying she bore no responsibility for her death? Because that isn't true either. As I said I have sympathy but holding her completely blameless for the tragedy that ultimately befell her is unrealistic.
No I'm not saying she doesn't bear responsibility for her death (of course she is)- but to say she had opportunities to clean up and "didn't take them" is a total misunderstanding of how addiction and recovery works. I also don't see anywhere where Ryan is saying she is "blameless", only that it's a shame that it took her death to get people to stop laughing and pointing their finger and recognize what a great talent she was; it doesn't matter how many Grammys she won, how much has been written about her in the past couple years that's been either positive or treated her like a real person with a real problem, instead of exploiting the shape she was in? Although I'm sure it does add additional pressure, I don't subscribe to the idea that she was an addict because of the tabloids/paparazzi exploitation or even handlers without her best intentions at heart, like Steve Earle's said "If I had been a carpenter, I'd still have been a heroin addict", but for the gossip mags/press to treat her one way while she was alive and do a 180 after she's dead is pathetic, and I believe that's what Ryan was getting at.
Last edited by Smitty on Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ryan Adams: "It makes me angry to think after years of being a punching bag in the press that it takes the death of Amy Winehouse for her art and life to be treated with any amount of respect. For every slurred line or stumble paraded in newspapers or across the internet & tv there was a real person with real issues who's life and works were marginalized in order to exploit her sickness. What a shame."
Only thing is, Ryan brought a lot of that abuse from the press upon himself. I can't say the same is true of Amy Winehouse.
I'm sure Amy did too, but that doesn't make it right IMO - but that's the culture we live in, and it's not going to change.
oilpiers wrote:Agree with me or not, but I think this thread took a turn that was good. Lots of interesting ideas shared. Some may have even made others think. Too bad some things look so hostile in writing, even if it wasn't meant to be anything than expressing ideas.
I wasn't trying to be hostile. I appreciate that you realize that things often seem hostile in writing when they weren't meant to be taken that way. Cheers!
I was not referring to you. I was referring to any disagreement in writing takes a hostile tone, where in speech it would be normal. But some of the things you did say can only be interpreted as hostile, but that was not what I was speaking of.
Regardless of how you feel about Amy Winehouse, I'm glad this opened up this conversation on perhaps the longest lasting epidemic in human history. We can disagree on whether it's a disease, what's the proper way to treat it, or whether a junkie is worthy of human compassion/sympathy, but I believe we can all agree that it's a real problem that affects us all in way or another, and it's devastating people and families in all walks of life, rich/poor, famous or not.
sactochris wrote:If having sympathy and compassion make me naive, then I guess I'm naive. I stand by my original statement. You work in a high stress environment and It has obviously gotten to you. Maybe you could go work at Sears.
What a bunch of needlessly hostile, self righteous, soapbox bullshit. You go fucking work at Sears.
Its clear that you have no idea about what you are professing such strong opinions about. When a job A) involves caring for a lot of people who place no value on themselves and no value on you as the provider and B) comes with a steady stream of vicarious traumatization to you, you simple can't afford to be emotionally involved with everyone you encounter. Its not callousness and its not whatever idea of disregard for one's clients/patients that you seem to have cooked up. The shields need to be up most of the time and you need to ration your emotional involvement carefully so that you can continue to do your job effectively. Folks who don't know how to do this have as little business working in these fields as folks who are genuinely callous and without compassion. I assure you, when folks who work in human services do not have to prioritize their own safety over being openly sympathetic and compassionate they are some of the most caring people you may ever encounter.
But based on how you've chosen to go about this conversation, it's clear that you know nothing about empathy or compassion in the first place so I'm just wasting my time.
200000000X another heroin junky died period!!!
I have no idea what your statement has to do with my post. Please don't ever quote me.
Addiction is a very sad thing, but blaming the media for ANYTHING in Winehouse's life is absurd.
- Did someone tie her down and shoot her up? - Did someone have a gun to her head and force her to repeatedly go out in public and act the fool? - Did someone force her to go on stage completely wasted?
The junkie is ALWAYS to blame for their own demise. They chose to shoot up in the first place.
If a junkie wants help, everything should be done to help them. But they need to want to help themselves. That means rehab, that means kicking every enabling person in their life to the curb. That means staying out of the public eye until they can handle it.
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever
