Just an observation...

Discuss Jason Isbell, Shonna Tucker, John Neff

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lotusamerica
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by lotusamerica »

beantownbubba wrote:I've enjoyed reading this thread so I figure I'll add my 2 cents.

I consider myself to be an Isbell fan. Among other things, the man wrote [inpo] Outfit, Cover Me Up, Dress Blues and Elephant, which is a career for most musicians. I've never liked any Jason album as much as I've liked any of several DBT albums, but I liked most of them well enough until recently. I assume Southeastern will be the high point of his current incarnation and (a) I think it's a really fine album and (b) if he continues in this incarnation w/out reaching or surpassing Southeastern, I am unlikely to have much interest in his newer music.

I am thrilled for Jason's success and wish him more of it. If it's accompanied by a resurgence of consistently great songwriting and performing I'll be doubly thrilled and will go back to buying albums and going to shows but if not he'll make his living from other folks and I think that works fine for both of us, especially for him. If he continues along what I consider to be a path of high level professionalism whether or not interrupted by the occasional flash of brilliance that's ok too and far more than most musicians are capable of.
Thought I'd take up the issue of "consistently great songwriting."

Just my opinion, but I think his songwriting consistency has been, well, pretty consistently inconsistent.

I don't think that's any different than anyone else. Both he and Cooley had an advantage for a while of only cranking out a couple songs per album which allowed them to really hone them or just leave out ones that didn't quite rise to the top. Both have had more variability, like Patterson always has, when they have to write more than 5-7 songs for a record.

I think he just does less blues-based songs and more folk and country-based songs, now. My guess is most people here like blues-based songs more. My guess is most of his overall current fan base like country-based songs more (or folk).

Sometimes I wonder when people look across his albums and a have a pretty strong reaction one way or the other, if they're ranking in their mind by the half or more songs that they may like on a record or if they're reacting negatively to the songs they don't like as much (or may dislike).

You'll have your own, but here are four songs I consider among the lesser on each of the albums (don't get me wrong, I still like a lot of these songs, but just play along with whatever your four bottom are, some of mine will change by tomorrow anyway), see if the reason you rank them like you do might be that you dislike the bottom four or so songs on any given album more than another album.

Sirens:
Brand New Kind of Actress
Chicago Promenade
Shotgun Wedding
Devil is my Running Mate

S/T:
Good
Cigarettes and Wine
However Long
Last Song I will Write

Here We Rest:
Day Mae
Heart on a String (cover of course...)
Save it for Sunday
Tour of Duty

Southeastern:
Flying over Water
New South Wales
Yvette
Super 8

Something More Than Free:
24 Frames
How to Forget
The Life You Chose
Something More Than Free

Nashville Sound:
Cumberland Gap
Anxiety
Chaos and Clothes
Something to Love

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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Zip City wrote:I'd say that's the difference between 3DDers and other music fans more than between DBT fans and new Isbell fans, though. There are certainly a great many DBT fans who fit your profile of Isbell fans, they just aren't the ones who make their way here. Likewise, I'm sure there are new Isbell fans who live and die with music.
In the Isbell FB fan group (the good one not the crazy one which I am no longer subscribed to) there was a thread the other day about the music people listened to before getting into Jason. The answers largely matched Bubba's hypothesis; these were mostly mainstream music fans. A lot of old classic country was mentioned (to Lotus' point), a lot of classic rock and really very little music on the fringes of any genre. You didn't see much of cult rock bands or even lesser known folk/country singer songwriters. No Townes Van Zandt, John Prine, Steve Goodman, Guy Clark or on the Rock side Faces, Iggy & the Stooges, Big Star or the like. It was mostly Boston, Cheap Trick, ZZ Top, etc. As far as more recent stuff the few people that mentioned Slobberbone, Centro-Matic, Son Volt, Bottle Rockets, Dexateens, etc. were DBT fans who follow Jason as well. I've known a lot of people like this over the years, people who basically just listen to the radio and might have one or two favorites that they follow a little more closely and make a point to see them when they come to town once a year or so. There's certainly nothing wrong with that but the fact that there's a bit of a conflict between those of us who basically treat music as a religion is really no surprise is it?

To me the point that "There are certainly a great many DBT fans who fit your profile of Isbell fans, they just aren't the ones who make their way here" is really not correct. Sure there might be a few but DBT doesn't quite lend itself to that kind of Rock fan and neither do most of the bands we discuss. It takes a little work to really like DBT and even more work to like some of the other bands discussed around here and in other "music evangelist" circles. Those people that you talk about do exist but they come to DBT for the party hence the shock from some of those folks when it became clear just how overtly political the band is. They weren't listening very closely. With DBT a lot of us heard something we couldn't quite reach on first listen and almost literally studied the music. I'll use my wife's experience as an example. She got into DBT while getting a massage. In conversation with the masseuse she mentioned " the duality of the south" to which he replied "Oh, you're a Truckers fan". She had no idea who DBT was and immediately questioned him. He had SRO handy and put it on. After the massage she went to the local record store and bought every album she could find and the rest she bought online. She listened to them non stop for weeks, spent her free time studying and learning the words and when she happened to see that they were playing two nights in Asheville a few months later she convinced a friend to drive the ten hours to North Carolina for the shows. Once there she got into conversations with people about other bands and discovered a different world. While I don't think that every DBT are drawn to them like this I can't imagine say a Boston fan having this experience. I also think it's unfair to just look at DBT fans. Over the years we've met people from other scenes that run parallel to ours. A lot of Centro-Matic fans came from the old server list "Postcards from Hell" and many of those people are the folks you'll find at Holiday Hangout or the private Wigginstock festivals. There other scenes like Lucero fans (lots of overlap) as well. This is how you get several hundred people to drive hundreds of miles to Nashville for a Glossary show.

Now I don't want be exclusionary here so when we talk about "music evangelists" we're not talking about just Rock & Roll. These people exist in the worlds of jazz, classical, opera and just about any form of music you can find. They also exist in a slightly different form among art fans, film fans and just about any kind of artistic expression you can name. These people are all searching for answers through art.

To examine the other side there is a popular meme:

Image

The majority of folks don't really listen to music. Oh they might like a song or two, or even a band or two but they aren't looking for the answers in songs or in live shows. For those of us who do it's hard to understand them. My parents were this way, a lot of our parents were probably this way. My mom was 27 years old when the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan and it didn't mean anything to her. She doesn't remember where she was and while she might like a Beatles song or two she doesn't remember even watching it. A lot of these folks look to religion for their answers. Some of them look to more practical concerns. To them music, film, art etc. are diversions from life not doorways into its meaning. They don't understand people like us anymore than we understand them.

Some of the points you bring up, Zip, do give me pause though. We shouldn't show intolerance towards these people any more than we should towards people of other belief systems, faiths or cultures. We all exist together and we shouldn't be thumbing our noses at them. I'm a little embarrassed that I might be guilty of this from time to time. That said I'm probably not ever going to react differently to things like my post in this thread where I called out Isbell fans, on the front row, looking bored as hell when he was playing as poignant and important a song as Room at the Top written by a recently deceased American Master. Sactochris called Petty the Mark Twain of music recently so try to imagine people being bored listening to a reading of Mark Twain. I would hope most people would be disturbed by that as well, but my lens might be narrow and that might not be the case.

So anyway given all this isn't easy to understand how people whose hearts and souls live for music might not feel comfortable with some of Isbell's newer fans who clearly don't? I don't think it's snobbery although I can see how it comes off that way. It's like a microcosm of our world in general to be honest isn't it? The thing is as much as we should respect another religion if you're a Baptist you probably won't meet your needs going to a Mosque (leaving alone the fact that all of us should jump out of our comfort zone and do these types of things but that's a conversation for a different time and place) so why wouldn't we feel a little like fish out of water as a Jason Isbell show in 2017?

PS.

The fact that Jason Isbell is a "music evangelist" in his own right shouldn't be ignored. Maybe in the end he's doing a huge service by leading the way with the people at his shows. Maybe the next time they won't be bored when he plays Room at the Top or some other great songwriter's song. That point has to be not only considered but Jason's willingness to play these songs knowing who is audience is has to be respected and admired. Frankly my respect for him is growing by leaps and bounds lately and I'm going to try to give his last couple of records more of a shot because of it.
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by beantownbubba »

Very nice, TC. The kind of post that deserves kudos just for being, so I'm not even going to think about whether I agree w/ everything or whatever. A real thoughtful post that I enjoyed reading.
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Zip City »

beantownbubba wrote:Very nice, TC. The kind of post that deserves kudos just for being, so I'm not even going to think about whether I agree w/ everything or whatever. A real thoughtful post that I enjoyed reading.
same

And one point that jumps out at me from TC's post is this: if the majority of "new" Isbell fans came from a life of enjoying what the radio gives them and not digging much deeper, how on earth did they all find Jason? Outside of an occasional song on World Cafe on NPR, I can't say I've EVER heard him on the radio. Perhaps he gets more spins on Sirius/XM, but the fan you describe sounds like they'd be locked into "70's on 7" and not "Outlaw Country".

It's fascinating
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by beantownbubba »

Zip City wrote:
beantownbubba wrote:Very nice, TC. The kind of post that deserves kudos just for being, so I'm not even going to think about whether I agree w/ everything or whatever. A real thoughtful post that I enjoyed reading.
same

And one point that jumps out at me from TC's post is this: if the majority of "new" Isbell fans came from a life of enjoying what the radio gives them and not digging much deeper, how on earth did they all find Jason? Outside of an occasional song on World Cafe on NPR, I can't say I've EVER heard him on the radio. Perhaps he gets more spins on Sirius/XM, but the fan you describe sounds like they'd be locked into "70's on 7" and not "Outlaw Country".

It's fascinating
It's fascinating in general: I've never understood how new(er) artists suddenly get heard or become popular. I mean sometimes it's obvious (a supergroup, or a group that's built so much buzz they're unavoidable, or, these days, tv) but a lot of times it's not and suddenly somebody has a hit record.
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by RolanK »

I think I might be a snob.
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Zip City »

beantownbubba wrote:
Zip City wrote:
beantownbubba wrote:Very nice, TC. The kind of post that deserves kudos just for being, so I'm not even going to think about whether I agree w/ everything or whatever. A real thoughtful post that I enjoyed reading.
same

And one point that jumps out at me from TC's post is this: if the majority of "new" Isbell fans came from a life of enjoying what the radio gives them and not digging much deeper, how on earth did they all find Jason? Outside of an occasional song on World Cafe on NPR, I can't say I've EVER heard him on the radio. Perhaps he gets more spins on Sirius/XM, but the fan you describe sounds like they'd be locked into "70's on 7" and not "Outlaw Country".

It's fascinating
It's fascinating in general: I've never understood how new(er) artists suddenly get heard or become popular. I mean sometimes it's obvious (a supergroup, or a group that's built so much buzz they're unavoidable, or, these days, tv) but a lot of times it's not and suddenly somebody has a hit record.
Yep. How have Isbell, My Morning Jacket, The Avett Brothers, any number of jam bands, etc. grown to the size they have with little no radio support? It probably happens organically, but how? Someone oughta write a book
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by tinnitus photography »

beantownbubba wrote:
Zip City wrote:
beantownbubba wrote:Very nice, TC. The kind of post that deserves kudos just for being, so I'm not even going to think about whether I agree w/ everything or whatever. A real thoughtful post that I enjoyed reading.
same

And one point that jumps out at me from TC's post is this: if the majority of "new" Isbell fans came from a life of enjoying what the radio gives them and not digging much deeper, how on earth did they all find Jason? Outside of an occasional song on World Cafe on NPR, I can't say I've EVER heard him on the radio. Perhaps he gets more spins on Sirius/XM, but the fan you describe sounds like they'd be locked into "70's on 7" and not "Outlaw Country".

It's fascinating
It's fascinating in general: I've never understood how new(er) artists suddenly get heard or become popular. I mean sometimes it's obvious (a supergroup, or a group that's built so much buzz they're unavoidable, or, these days, tv) but a lot of times it's not and suddenly somebody has a hit record.
i've often wondered why the White Stripes and Black Keys soared to the stratosphere, but Jon Spencer remained mired in the gutter.

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Re: Just an observation...

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Zip City wrote: And one point that jumps out at me from TC's post is this: if the majority of "new" Isbell fans came from a life of enjoying what the radio gives them and not digging much deeper, how on earth did they all find Jason? Outside of an occasional song on World Cafe on NPR, I can't say I've EVER heard him on the radio. Perhaps he gets more spins on Sirius/XM, but the fan you describe sounds like they'd be locked into "70's on 7" and not "Outlaw Country".
I asked the very same question last week in a text exchange with Worldwide Bill
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by worrierking »

This whole thread is interesting to me, as I came to be a DBT fan much later than most of you, around 2007 or 8. Jason had already left before I ever discovered DBT. Plus, my wife is one of the "NPR fans." I introduced her to Jason's music last fall and he's her favorite artist now (I tried to get her to sample DBT too but that's a little too rough around the edges for her taste).

My perspective is different than most of you and hers is way different than mine.

I personally don't think Jason's first three solo albums are very good. Spotty and inconsistent, with some nice moments. Southeastern in a modern masterpiece in my mind. SMTF and TNS are pretty good, better than the first three but not as emotional and personal as Southeastern. Nashville Sound is pretty weak lyrically other than Vampires.

Her favorite songs are all the ones some of you guys hate, 24 Frames, Something More than Free, Stockholm, If It Takes a Lifetime.

There is some truth in the stereotypes.

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Re: Just an observation...

Post by LBRod »

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:
Zip City wrote: And one point that jumps out at me from TC's post is this: if the majority of "new" Isbell fans came from a life of enjoying what the radio gives them and not digging much deeper, how on earth did they all find Jason? Outside of an occasional song on World Cafe on NPR, I can't say I've EVER heard him on the radio. Perhaps he gets more spins on Sirius/XM, but the fan you describe sounds like they'd be locked into "70's on 7" and not "Outlaw Country".
I asked the very same question last week in a text exchange with Worldwide Bill
In the bay area the NPR connection is strong.
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Zip City »

I've heard him on morning NPR music shows, but maybe it was his appearance on Fresh Air that gave him a boost
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

LBRod wrote:
whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:
Zip City wrote: And one point that jumps out at me from TC's post is this: if the majority of "new" Isbell fans came from a life of enjoying what the radio gives them and not digging much deeper, how on earth did they all find Jason? Outside of an occasional song on World Cafe on NPR, I can't say I've EVER heard him on the radio. Perhaps he gets more spins on Sirius/XM, but the fan you describe sounds like they'd be locked into "70's on 7" and not "Outlaw Country".
I asked the very same question last week in a text exchange with Worldwide Bill
In the bay area the NPR connection is strong.
not all that germane to the discussion, but circa 87 working in a record store the worst thing you could hear from a customer was, "I heard it on NPR," which was always followed with said customer not being able to offer even the remotest of a clue to help them find what they were looking for
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Tequila Cowboy »

Zip City wrote:Yep. How have Isbell, My Morning Jacket, The Avett Brothers, any number of jam bands, etc. grown to the size they have with little no radio support? It probably happens organically, but how? Someone oughta write a book
I've considered writing that book many times as I'm just as puzzled by it as you. I've also considered writing a book about those of us with such a powerful connection to music. Nowadays I'm too busy to listen to most of the music I want to let alone write about it but who knows? Maybe someday.
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Zip City wrote:Yep. How have Isbell, My Morning Jacket, The Avett Brothers, any number of jam bands, etc. grown to the size they have with little no radio support? It probably happens organically, but how? Someone oughta write a book
well, there is a certain band from decades ago that more or less created a blueprint for such a career path (regardless of whether one likes them)
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Zip City »

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:
Zip City wrote:Yep. How have Isbell, My Morning Jacket, The Avett Brothers, any number of jam bands, etc. grown to the size they have with little no radio support? It probably happens organically, but how? Someone oughta write a book
well, there is a certain band from decades ago that more or less created a blueprint for such a career path (regardless of whether one likes them)
If it was as easy as finding an unemployed gaggle of grilled-cheese selling hippies to follow you around, everyone would do it
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Zip City wrote:
whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:
Zip City wrote:Yep. How have Isbell, My Morning Jacket, The Avett Brothers, any number of jam bands, etc. grown to the size they have with little no radio support? It probably happens organically, but how? Someone oughta write a book
well, there is a certain band from decades ago that more or less created a blueprint for such a career path (regardless of whether one likes them)
If it was as easy as finding an unemployed gaggle of grilled-cheese selling hippies to follow you around, everyone would do it
there you go again, showing you know nowhere as much as you think you do :o

ask MMJ, Phish, DMB, Widespread Panic, YMSB, SCI, etc., it worked for them
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Zip City »

For a guy who likes telling a lot of jokes, you sure don’t take them very well :lol:
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Clams »

Zip City wrote:For a guy who likes telling a lot of jokes, you sure don’t take them very well :lol:
Zip shoots.... aaaaaaand..... he scores!!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Zip City wrote:For a guy who likes telling a lot of jokes, you sure don’t take them very well :lol:
But you and I know both know you weren't joking. :roll:

It would be like me dropping a Sandusky on you and then acting like I was just joking :lol:
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Zip City »

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:
Zip City wrote:For a guy who likes telling a lot of jokes, you sure don’t take them very well :lol:
But you and I know both know you weren't joking. :roll:

It would be like me dropping a Sandusky on you and then acting like I was just joking :lol:
Considering I mentioned half the bands in your post previously....

Anyways, I’m still halfway baffled how any of those bands did it. Word of mouth alone shouldn’t have pushed those bands to where they are, but did
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Zip City wrote:
whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:
Zip City wrote:For a guy who likes telling a lot of jokes, you sure don’t take them very well :lol:
But you and I know both know you weren't joking. :roll:

It would be like me dropping a Sandusky on you and then acting like I was just joking :lol:
Considering I mentioned half the bands in your post previously....

Anyways, I’m still halfway baffled how any of those bands did it. Word of mouth alone shouldn’t have pushed those bands to where they are, but did
It was never just word of mouth for these bands. You can't underestimate the positive impact that came from allowing taping and trading. Plus GD community was one of the very first music fan Internet communities (see, The Well*), long before virtually any other fan base tapped into the power of online communities. GD also were one of the first bands to actively build a database of fans and communicate with them directly (not the same as fan clubs) and later used this to sell tickets directly to fans without the middleman. Bands that were influenced by them jumped all over both practices quickly. And of course every act I mentioned toured like a motherfucker


*= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WELL
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Clams »

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote: It would be like me dropping a Sandusky on you and then acting like I was just joking :lol:
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by whatwouldcooleydo? »

Clams wrote:
whatwouldcooleydo? wrote: It would be like me dropping a Sandusky on you and then acting like I was just joking :lol:
Hey man
yeah, I know, it's an open (AKA gaping) wound
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by lotusamerica »

Zip City wrote:Yep. How have Isbell, My Morning Jacket, The Avett Brothers, any number of jam bands, etc. grown to the size they have with little no radio support? It probably happens organically, but how? Someone oughta write a book
Pretty sure Jason's career trajectory took off from his awards.

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Re: Just an observation...

Post by lotusamerica »

worrierking wrote:This whole thread is interesting to me, as I came to be a DBT fan much later than most of you, around 2007 or 8. Jason had already left before I ever discovered DBT. Plus, my wife is one of the "NPR fans." I introduced her to Jason's music last fall and he's her favorite artist now (I tried to get her to sample DBT too but that's a little too rough around the edges for her taste).

My perspective is different than most of you and hers is way different than mine.

I personally don't think Jason's first three solo albums are very good. Spotty and inconsistent, with some nice moments. Southeastern in a modern masterpiece in my mind. SMTF and TNS are pretty good, better than the first three but not as emotional and personal as Southeastern. Nashville Sound is pretty weak lyrically other than Vampires.

Her favorite songs are all the ones some of you guys hate, 24 Frames, Something More than Free, Stockholm, If It Takes a Lifetime.

There is some truth in the stereotypes.
Blaspheme! Get outta here and head over to super-duper fanworld! Hahaha

I don't hate 24 Frames though I know TC does, Stockholm is a great song just it and Travelin'Alone shouldn't have been sequenced together since they're pretty much the same song lyrically, and If it Takes a Lifetime is great, quite the underrated song. SMTF, well, the video pretty much gave that one a special place in hell.

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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Cole Younger »

I heard Live Oak on the way home from work yesterday and was really surprised by how much I enjoyed it. I hadn't listened to that song or anything from Southeastern in a long time.
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Re: Just an observation...

Post by Swamp »

Not a fan of most of zippy's post but I liked this one :lol:
Zip City wrote:
If it was as easy as finding an unemployed gaggle of grilled-cheese selling hippies to follow you around, everyone would do it
Also I have never gone to a show looking for any kind of answers. I just like the way the music tickles my ears.
and the rest as they say is uh er uh, well somebodies history somewhere?

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Re: Just an observation...

Post by cortez the killer »

whatwouldcooleydo? wrote:
Clams wrote:
whatwouldcooleydo? wrote: It would be like me dropping a Sandusky on you and then acting like I was just joking :lol:
Hey man
yeah, I know, it's an open (AKA gaping) wound
Keep the Polish Bowling out of this thread please.
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