Jason Isbell - Something More Than Free 7/17

[Tequila Cowboy]

Someone said it earlier about 24 Frames, but damn does Jimbo Hart really shine on this album. Making up for not being on Southeastern i guess.

Couldn't agree with that more. He also has taken a huge leap live and he was already a very, very good player.

[Smitty]

It's definitely growing on me, but the production/musicality is the weak point.

Still think Ryan Adams would've done a better job producing Southeastern & SMTF.

Are you high?

Dave Cobb is amazing at what he does. His production credits over the years are some of my favorite recent albums. I'd take him over the overrated twatlike tendencies of Ryan Adams. I dig Adams alright, and own a lot of his albums. But I think Isbell has done great work with Cobb and he's given Isbell a new feel.

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/dave-cob ... 12/credits

I may be high too, but I'm with Lawson. I think Cobb's production is too safe and T-Boneish NPR-ified. I really dig Adams' productions; I also think it'd be interesting to hear Beck tackle the job.

[Tequila Cowboy]

I may be high too, but I'm with Lawson. I think Cobb's production is too safe and T-Boneish NPR-ified. I really dig Adams' productions; I also think it'd be interesting to hear Beck tackle the job.

I'm not a Cobb fan either, although I do think the production style worked on the Sturgill Simpson record. I think he puts the vocals too high in the mix and and has too much going on musically just below a comfortable listening level. Sometimes using musical flourishes to conflict with a vocal works to add tension to a mix. There's none of that in Cobb's work. It ends up with a sheen very similar to Burnett as you say.

[Beebs]

I think Cobb's production is too safe and T-Boneish NPR-ified

perfect

[Clams]

I think Cobb's production is too safe and T-Boneish NPR-ified

perfect

The masses (including myself) disagree. His career has gone nothing but up since Southeastern came out. Awards and acclaim, he's moved up to bigger venues (and selling them out), profiled in the NY Times Magazine, etc. I know you guys will try, but IMO it's kind of hard to argue against Southeastern.

[CalebCalebson]

I think Cobb's production is too safe and T-Boneish NPR-ified

perfect

The masses (including myself) disagree. His career has gone nothing but up since Southeastern came out. Awards and acclaim, he's moved up to bigger venues (and selling them out), profiled in the NY Times Magazine, etc. I know you guys will try, but IMO it's kind of hard to argue against Southeastern.

I'm glad I'm not the only Cobb fan here.

[Beebs]

I think Cobb's production is too safe and T-Boneish NPR-ified

perfect

The masses (including myself) disagree. His career has gone nothing but up since Southeastern came out. Awards and acclaim, he's moved up to bigger venues (and selling them out), profiled in the NY Times Magazine, etc. I know you guys will try, but IMO it's kind of hard to argue against Southeastern.

I don't understand this at all Clamster. What does JI's career trajectory and 3DDr's opinions of the production have to do with each other?

[Tequila Cowboy]

I think Cobb's production is too safe and T-Boneish NPR-ified

perfect

The masses (including myself) disagree. His career has gone nothing but up since Southeastern came out. Awards and acclaim, he's moved up to bigger venues (and selling them out), profiled in the NY Times Magazine, etc. I know you guys will try, but IMO it's kind of hard to argue against Southeastern.

I'm not going to argue against it at all. I think overall it's his best record and probably a tie with Sirens of the Ditch as his best collection of songs. Sirens isn't very well produced, no offense to Patterson, David Barbe and the host of people that worked on it, it was done scattershot and sounds that way. Also Jason had no story at that point, he had no "cred" except from the likes of us. Southeastern is a well produced, almost slick sounding, record with a great collection of songs and it resonated with people. Alabama Pines had already started warming up the Americana crowd for JI and by the time of Southeastern he did have a story to tell, and a good one. People love redemption stories and Jason has one and, I might add, I'm glad he does because I sure want him around. Cover Me Up played to that story and made the ladies swoon and people with great taste in songwriting, of both sexes, took notice. I like the song but it pales in comparison to Elephant which, in stark contrast, a lot of those same folks find uncomfortable. Outside of the latter song though Southeastern is a safe record with tales of sentiment and redemption, or near redemption, beautifully told. It jibed with his story perfectly. Dave Cobb's production meshed with that. Some people were hearing Jason's voice the first time and that production is probably a good fit for that. Since then he's literally aiming at that audience that embraced him and it is the NPR, New York Time, young professional type of audience that embraces a lot of Americana as a whole and specifically acts like Shovels & Rope, The Avett Brothers and others. It's a great strategy and it's worked for him. Again, I'm legitimately happy for him, but to say it's not a safe path is disingenuous.

There are a lot of great songwriters out there every bit as good or better than Jason. James McMurtry comes to mind and I know Clams that you are a huge fan. He's not selling out theaters, he's not selling 200,000 plus records (I think Jason's new one will probably double that or more btw) and he doesn't really have a story or a good looking young wife or tell the kind of tale that appeals to that crowd. Neither does John Moreland who I would argue is a better songwriter and I think JI would agree with that.

So I guess the question is has Jason gotten better or is he just selling an image and a product, albeit with outstanding songwriting, that appeals to a larger demographic? I mean as far back as 2005 I thought he had that more mainstream appeal in him but he also had some obstacles to overcome most of which none of us had any idea existed. He may also have gotten a bit more consistent, for instance Jason Isbell & the 400 Unit is a great sounding record without the depth of Southeastern or Sirens for that matter. Better though? Hard to say that the guy that wrote Outfit and Decoration Day as a 22 year old, or Dress Blues as a 26 year old has improved on excellence. He has matured though and maturity appeals to more than the "beards" that he's made just a little too much fun of over the last couple of years. Getting back to production though I don't know how you can say that Dave Cobb doesn't bear some relation to T Bone Burnett who is arguably the king of the "safe" Americana record. That not a pejorative either, but it does describe an audience a lot of that kind of music is aimed at.

[CalebCalebson]

Want to add on to the John Moreland praise TC..


For every one of the outstanding Isbell Elephantesque songs. John Moreland has 10 of them. Seeing Moreland perform those songs in a bar like The Nick in BHAM is gut wrenching, I've seen women and a few guys crying into their beers when watching him.

[StormandStatic]

Based on what Jason has said he keeps going back to Cobb not because of how he makes the records sound, but how he impacts the songs themselves. His advice on songwriting, composition, etc is what makes these records how they are. We're looking at his role in a very limited capacity, as if you could take him away and just get a better sounding record with all the same songs, but by what I've read we just couldn't have these songs this way without Cobb.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Based on what Jason has said he keeps going back to Cobb not because of how he makes the records sound, but how he impacts the songs themselves. His advice on songwriting, composition, etc is what makes these records how they are. We're looking at his role in a very limited capacity, as if you could take him away and just get a better sounding record with all the same songs, but by what I've read we just couldn't have these songs this way without Cobb.

I understand that, and as someone who has spent time making a few records in studios (in the days of the dinosaurs of course) I would never undervalue that. JI needs to make the records he wants to make with whom he wants to make them with. It matters. That doesn't mean that he makes these records for everyone and that criticism, and frankly kind of mild criticism at that, is out of bounds.

[Iowan]

I think John Moreland is a hell of a songwriter, but he hasn't written anything on par with the following:

Outfit
Elephant
Decoration Day
Dress Blues

He's written a bunch of songs that are damn close though

[Duke Silver]

I think Gospel and God's Medicine are up there with anything JI's written. Nobody Gives a Damn... and Your Spell aren't far off. I think I've logged way more hours with In the Throes than I have with any of Jason's albums.

To put it in baseball terms...Jason hits a few more home runs, but Moreland (based on the last couple albums) has a higher batting average.

[CalebCalebson]

I think John Moreland is a hell of a songwriter, but he hasn't written anything on par with the following:

Outfit
Elephant
Decoration Day
Dress Blues

He's written a bunch of songs that are damn close though

With the exception of Elephant we've had years to put the other 3 songs you've mention into our own "all time great classic" status into our collections. Those are phenomenal songs that have marinated longer than most of Morelands work. That's like comparing a classic film like Taxi Driver to a modern masterpiece like There Will Be Blood and saying Taxi Driver is the better film. Which may be the case but Paul Thomas Anderson knocked There Will Be Bood out of the park and all his other films. I love Isbell and his songs, but Moreland is better at writing a Elephant gut wrencher than Isbell is, because Mroreland is bleeding with them. What Jason does right is covering all his bases from the gut wrenching to the rockers and between. Isbell also has more marketable look too. You can't just put John Moreland on the Tonight Show.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Isbell also has more marketable look too. You can't just put John Moreland on the Tonight Show.

Which is horribly unfair, but that is the world we live in.

I guess that's part of what I was trying to say too, while we can call it commercial or whatever you want to say Jason Isbell brings integrity to what he does whether there is a marketing element to it or not. I just don't think it's fair to pretend that element doesn't exist because we're not afraid to call it out when it doesn't.

[jbshelton]

Does anyone mind sharing SMTF??

[CalebCalebson]

Jason Isbell is so over with folks people yell for Outfit at DBT shows, and flooded Zac Brown's social media when he didn't credit Isbell for covering Dress Blues..


SouthEastern has taken Isbell out of a sub genre and put him into this new world where NPR is doing stories on him and he's landed a few mainstream podcast interviews over the past 3 years. His song Alabama Pines won the award for Americana song of the year I believe, but SE put him in the stratosphere. I love stripped down LoFi records, but Dave Cobb knew how to take Isbell and get his sound over with everyone from folks like you and me to the NPR loving, Fiatt driving New Yorker. If it wasn't for Isbell and his DBT songs I would have never became a fan of the band when I saw them for the first time in 2006. He was a gateway into a whole new world of music for me and many other folks too.

[LastLawson]

It's definitely growing on me, but the production/musicality is the weak point.

Still think Ryan Adams would've done a better job producing Southeastern & SMTF.

Are you high?

Dave Cobb is amazing at what he does. His production credits over the years are some of my favorite recent albums. I'd take him over the overrated twatlike tendencies of Ryan Adams. I dig Adams alright, and own a lot of his albums. But I think Isbell has done great work with Cobb and he's given Isbell a new feel.

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/dave-cob ... 12/credits

Agree to disagree. Say what you want about Ryan Adams, his albums always bring out the emotions of songs, and the music doesn't get in the way. Some of the production on Southeastern & SMTF is a bit too schmaltzy, and not RAW enough.

Edit: Though Ryan Adams can get schmaltzy, it always fits the lyrics.

[Clams]

I don't understand this at all Clamster. What does JI's career trajectory and 3DDr's opinions of the production have to do with each other?

It just means that you guys can take all the shots you want at the production, but the record has done pretty damn well for Jason.

[rlipps]

I don't understand this at all Clamster. What does JI's career trajectory and 3DDr's opinions of the production have to do with each other?

It just means that you guys can take all the shots you want at the production, but the record has done pretty damn well for Jason.

That's great, and I'm happy for Jason. He's found his niche and based on these past 2 records, he's content to stay in his lane and reap the benefits. Can't blame him one bit, but just because Southeastern sold more records and got him more critical acclaim, that doesn't mean it has to be my favorite record of his (which it isn't).

To use another sports analogy as someone did earlier in the thread, I told a buddy of mine the other day Jason reminds me of Derrick Coleman: all the pieces are there to make him an all-time great in his profession, but I'm not sure he'll ever put everything together to reach his full potential. I hope I'm wrong, but for my personal taste, I get less and less excited with each of his releases.

[Beebs]

I don't understand this at all Clamster. What does JI's career trajectory and 3DDr's opinions of the production have to do with each other?

It just means that you guys can take all the shots you want at the production, but the record has done pretty damn well for Jason.

There's no question that the record has done very well for Jason. The guy's a freaking Americana jugernaught and I couldn't be happier for him.

But I still don't understand how wider commercial success has anything to do with how I (being a representative of the long time fan demographic) am supposed to feel about the sound.

To be clear, I think Southeastern is a VERY GOOD ALBUM. I LIKE IT A LOT. But I won't continue to be very interested if the rest of his career consists solely of such clean sounding arrangements and production. This isn't a dig at Jason or Dave Cobb or anyone on the JI team, it's just fact that I and most folks around here don't listen to such clean sounding stuff.

For the record, I haven't even heard the new one yet. But early on I said something like "I hope this isn't going to just be Southestern Part 2." Which is what the early reviews are sounding like.

[CalebCalebson]

I don't understand this at all Clamster. What does JI's career trajectory and 3DDr's opinions of the production have to do with each other?

It just means that you guys can take all the shots you want at the production, but the record has done pretty damn well for Jason.

There's no question that the record has done very well for Jason. The guy's a freaking Americana jugernaught and I couldn't be happier for him.

But I still don't understand how wider commercial success has anything to do with how I (being a representative of the long time fan demographic) am supposed to feel about the sound.

To be clear, I think Southeastern is a VERY GOOD ALBUM. I LIKE IT A LOT. But I won't continue to be very interested if the rest of his career consists solely of such clean sounding arrangements and production. This isn't a dig at Jason or Dave Cobb or anyone on the JI team, it's just fact that I and most folks around here don't listen to such clean sounding stuff.

For the record, I haven't even heard the new one yet. But early on I said something like "I hope this isn't going to just be Southestern Part 2." Which is what the early reviews are sounding like.

I'm a big punk fan, listen and enjoy my fare share of RAW sounding music and production but I don't understand letting a "clean, shiny, and polished sound" ruin my appreciation for a album, band or artist. I've seen this happen a lot with bands like Alabama Shakes, Avett Brothers, My Morning Jacket, Kings of Leon, and now Jason Isbell. The bands get a bigger following, maybe more money and can afford better production and people start shitting on newer material because of it. When in reality it's the same band or musicians that put out the previous records. I get not liking or digging songs or albums based on taste. Hell I loathe the guy producing the new KOL shit, but you can't fault a artist for not going bigger and using their resources wisely. I'd love for Isbell to have stayed the best kept secret this side of the ditch, but he's not a kid anymore either.

[StormandStatic]

Based on what Jason has said he keeps going back to Cobb not because of how he makes the records sound, but how he impacts the songs themselves. His advice on songwriting, composition, etc is what makes these records how they are. We're looking at his role in a very limited capacity, as if you could take him away and just get a better sounding record with all the same songs, but by what I've read we just couldn't have these songs this way without Cobb.

I understand that, and as someone who has spent time making a few records in studios (in the days of the dinosaurs of course) I would never undervalue that. JI needs to make the records he wants to make with whom he wants to make them with. It matters. That doesn't mean that he makes these records for everyone and that criticism, and frankly kind of mild criticism at that, is out of bounds.

Which is very much not my point. What I'm saying is: if you're going to critique Cobb as a producer, you can't just do it sonically. His impact is on the songs themselves, whether that means cutting a bridge here or a solo there. If anything, if you don't like these records, blame Cobb more, as it's very possible he has impacted Isbell's songwriting in a way you don't like. Jason would probably say these records couldn't exist without Cobb, in that the songs wouldn't be written in the same way, or the chosen instrumentation would be different.

For what it's worth, I liked the way the acoustic portions of Southeastern sounded, particularly the voice-and-guitar on "Cover Me Up" and "Elephant." And I really can't make a judgement based on a transcode of a stream rip, which will inherently flatten the production and bring the ugliest elements to the fore. It's possible the full-quality release will have an incredible amount of depth, sonically, but right now it just sounds like there's a track of Jason's voice sitting on top of another track of a band playing. It sounds ugly, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't sound great later.

[Beebs]

but you can't fault a artist for not going bigger and using their resources wisely.

No you [shouldn't]. Who's doing this BTW?

[Tequila Cowboy]

Which is very much not my point. What I'm saying is: if you're going to critique Cobb as a producer, you can't just do it sonically. His impact is on the songs themselves, whether that means cutting a bridge here or a solo there. If anything, if you don't like these records, blame Cobb more, as it's very possible he has impacted Isbell's songwriting in a way you don't like. Jason would probably say these records couldn't exist without Cobb, in that the songs wouldn't be written in the same way, or the chosen instrumentation would be different.

For what it's worth, I liked the way the acoustic portions of Southeastern sounded, particularly the voice-and-guitar on "Cover Me Up" and "Elephant." And I really can't make a judgement based on a transcode of a stream rip, which will inherently flatten the production and bring the ugliest elements to the fore. It's possible the full-quality release will have an incredible amount of depth, sonically, but right now it just sounds like there's a track of Jason's voice sitting on top of another track of a band playing. It sounds ugly, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't sound great later.

No I understood what you meant. All the very best producers have a hand in the arrangements. Some artists are very uncomfortable with that, some are very open to it. As far as the sound I'm really only judging Southeastern here. I loved the record when it first came out, loved it. You can find some post of mine calling it a masterpiece, it likely still is but I had't listened to it in months until a few days ago. It doesn't call to me. the songs are still great but it's a little bland and I have to admit that I've been a little put off by the overwhelming praise that it's gotten lately including some calling it the best record in a decade. Sorry, it's not that. Lately I've been listening to the live record and the Jason Isbell & the 400 Unit record more than anything for the punch they bring. They both have an incredible sound to these ears although as I've said many times the latter lacks somewhat in songwriting although it sure has a few great ones.

As far as Cobb goes I have similar criticisms on his production of the new Houndmouth record too. Those songs are really, really strong and I heard many of them live last summer and fall but they're a little gussied up on the record. When your harmonies are that pretty you need to get a little dirty with the rest of it. Still in my top five of the year so far though so I can't say Cobb ruins anybody for me like Jeff Lynne did with Tom Petty with Full Moon Fever and Into The Great Wide Open but still I notice.

[Tequila Cowboy]

I'm a big punk fan, listen and enjoy my fare share of RAW sounding music and production but I don't understand letting a "clean, shiny, and polished sound" ruin my appreciation for a album, band or artist. I've seen this happen a lot with bands like Alabama Shakes, Avett Brothers, My Morning Jacket, Kings of Leon, and now Jason Isbell. The bands get a bigger following, maybe more money and can afford better production and people start shitting on newer material because of it. When in reality it's the same band or musicians that put out the previous records. I get not liking or digging songs or albums based on taste. Hell I loathe the guy producing the new KOL shit, but you can't fault a artist for not going bigger and using their resources wisely. I'd love for Isbell to have stayed the best kept secret this side of the ditch, but he's not a kid anymore either.

Here's the thing, sometimes that production and change of sound turns off older fans. I was a U2 fan that bolted with The Joshua Tree and almost died when I hear Achtung Baby. R.E.M. was my favorite band until Out of Time and then I loathed them. My Morning Jacket was an absolute favorite of mine until Evil Urges and then Circuital made me beyond crazy, but guess what? Waterfall has brought me back, it's not At Dawn or It Still Moves but it's better than they've been in years. It's not weirdness because you're in a big studio and you can. It's actually pretty great an I'm shocked.

I've had none of that reaction with Jason's music. A bit of the feeling that he isn't quite making music for me anymore but hell my wife and I have tickets for three shows upcoming and we've seen him once already. I preordered the vinyl of his record. Love his music and don't see that changing although I might no longer pencil in his upcoming records as number one in a given year without ever hearing a note. Those days are probably gone.

[Tequila Cowboy]

Btw, this is one of the best discussions on music I've been involved with around here in a while so I hope nobody feels attacked or belittled or anything like that. Passionate music people are passionate. I dig that.

[Clams]

I don't understand this at all Clamster. What does JI's career trajectory and 3DDr's opinions of the production have to do with each other?

It just means that you guys can take all the shots you want at the production, but the record has done pretty damn well for Jason.

There's no question that the record has done very well for Jason. The guy's a freaking Americana jugernaught and I couldn't be happier for him.

But I still don't understand how wider commercial success has anything to do with how I (being a representative of the long time fan demographic) am supposed to feel about the sound.

To be clear, I think Southeastern is a VERY GOOD ALBUM. I LIKE IT A LOT. But I won't continue to be very interested if the rest of his career consists solely of such clean sounding arrangements and production. This isn't a dig at Jason or Dave Cobb or anyone on the JI team, it's just fact that I and most folks around here don't listen to such clean sounding stuff.

For the record, I haven't even heard the new one yet. But early on I said something like "I hope this isn't going to just be Southestern Part 2." Which is what the early reviews are sounding like.

Beebs are you about to get ragey again?

[CalebCalebson]

I'm a big punk fan, listen and enjoy my fare share of RAW sounding music and production but I don't understand letting a "clean, shiny, and polished sound" ruin my appreciation for a album, band or artist. I've seen this happen a lot with bands like Alabama Shakes, Avett Brothers, My Morning Jacket, Kings of Leon, and now Jason Isbell. The bands get a bigger following, maybe more money and can afford better production and people start shitting on newer material because of it. When in reality it's the same band or musicians that put out the previous records. I get not liking or digging songs or albums based on taste. Hell I loathe the guy producing the new KOL shit, but you can't fault a artist for not going bigger and using their resources wisely. I'd love for Isbell to have stayed the best kept secret this side of the ditch, but he's not a kid anymore either.

Here's the thing, sometimes that production and change of sound turns off older fans. I was a U2 fan that bolted with The Joshua Tree and almost died when I hear Achtung Baby. R.E.M. was my favorite band until Out of Time and then I loathed them. My Morning Jacket was an absolute favorite of mine until Evil Urges and then Circuital made me beyond crazy, but guess what? Waterfall has brought me back, it's not At Dawn or It Still Moves but it's better than they've been in years. It's not weirdness because you're in a big studio and you can. It's actually pretty great an I'm shocked.

I've had none of that reaction with Jason's music. A bit of the feeling that he isn't quite making music for me anymore but hell my wife and I have tickets for three shows upcoming and we've seen him once already. I preordered the vinyl of his record. Love his music and don't see that changing although I might no longer pencil in his upcoming records as number one in a given year without ever hearing a note. Those days are probably gone.

Good examples with U2 and REM (rem starting my love affair with Athens) , I'm a big fan of both still to this day. But those releases polarized fans and started a dynamic shift for both bands. I think REM began that shift with Green honestly. It's to me the album where they still held those college roots, but ushered in a more modern feel. Which coincidentally I hear was Kurt Cobains favorite album of theirs.

Growing up in Mississippi my mother played REM, U2, Beatles album almost as much as CCM albums. So my love with that southern sound was a long way around, I didn't get hugely into it until my college years and same goes with punk. I guess with that said-- being used to that slick polished production isn't a big deal for me because I've heard it all my life. I can see where a lot of folks are turned off by it. I feel bad that I appreciate and love Evil Urges and Circuital by MMJ. With the new Isbell records, I've actually loved the acoustic numbers way more than the rocking ones, I'd listen to a Cover Me Up over a Super 8 any day.

My wife by the way takes Isbell over DBT any day of the week, I'd love to see who his demographic audience is now.

[Smitty]

I don't understand this at all Clamster. What does JI's career trajectory and 3DDr's opinions of the production have to do with each other?

It just means that you guys can take all the shots you want at the production, but the record has done pretty damn well for Jason.

Well first off, 99.9% of my opinion run contrary to those of the masses so that's nothing new.
I'm prouder than anyone that Jason is successful and SE is damn near a masterpiece, even if it's not particularly my favorite album of his. I also didn't necessarily take a "shot" at the production, it's not that it's bad or anything, just that it's sterile. Nothing sticks out, musically or otherwise and the vocals are too high in the mix.

BTW, I never said anything about wishing they were more lo-fi records. I can barely listen to most "low-fi" records. A professionally mixed record doesn't have to sound synthetic. Look at Complicated Game or even Heat Lightning Rumbles in the Distance ; there's nothing about them lo-fi and they sound clear as day but the mix allows you to "feel" the instruments and grooves more than anything I've heard by Cobb. It's probably not the best description, but the music on his records sound more like a wall of sound behind the singer. It's almost like hearing a singer singing live on top of a pre-recorded track. I admit I'm not doing the best job of articulating what I'm trying to say, but hopefully someone else who gets it will make it clearer.