nowigotworry wrote:
I'm not trying to cause a controversy...just simply stating what I know has been right under the surface for me for several years and what an initial listen of the new album brought bubbling over.
I think it's a legitimate opinion but somewhat unfair. Comparing anything "new" to a classic era of a band really isn't fair in my book. It's like comparing something like Steel Wheels or Bridges to Babylon to the classic run of Beggars Banquet through Exile on Main St and saying "The Stones just aren't as they good now as they were in '68-'72".
One thing I do disagree with...I think DBT are as good now live as they've ever been. The albums and songs might not quite (but sometimes it's close) reach the heights of that classic era run but they are certainly bringing it live.
Turn you demons into walls of goddamned noise and sound.
nowigotworry wrote:I have been seeing Drive By Truckers since I was 15 (when Decoration Day came out), I consider them to be my favorite band (at least of the last 20 years), I have seen them many times more than I have seen any other band, I have listened to their albums thousands and thousands of times...so I say this with some context:
Patterson is truly putting a damper on my enjoyment of this band.
His songs these days just all sound the same, have no power (what happened to the guitars? I thought this band was ABOUT the guitars), seem to touch on the same general topics, and often lack strong melodies...they just sound kind of tossed off, even though I get the impression that they're not.
"When the Sun Don't Shine" is probably my least favorite song that he's ever written for all of the above reasons. "Baggage" sounds like a "Grand Canyon" retread (which I personally don't find as great as many fans do). "Guns of Umpqua" has a decent melody but the words are all shoved in there haphazardly and I'm not feeling any of that emotional pull that some are discussing.
Cooley is still great, but the songs on this one don't feel quite as raw as they did on English Oceans.
I hate to sit here and compare the new stuff to "the good old days" but there's just something severely lacking compared to the 2003-2010(ish) era of the band. Even the shows don't rock me quite as hard as they used to. I know that people age and things change blah blah blah, but I'm just not feeling any of this the way I used to.
I'm not trying to cause a controversy...just simply stating what I know has been right under the surface for me for several years and what an initial listen of the new album brought bubbling over.
A few of us posted recently about how we thought "What It Means" is quite dull musically. I think HLRITD is that way but the lyrical strength makes up for a lot of it.
nowigotworry wrote:
I'm not trying to cause a controversy...just simply stating what I know has been right under the surface for me for several years and what an initial listen of the new album brought bubbling over.
I think it's a legitimate opinion but somewhat unfair. Comparing anything "new" to a classic era of a band really isn't fair in my book. It's like comparing something like Steel Wheels or Bridges to Babylon to the classic run of Beggars Banquet through Exile on Main St and saying "The Stones just aren't as they good now as they were in '68-'72".
One thing I do disagree with...I think DBT are as good now live as they've ever been. The albums and songs might not quite (but sometimes it's close) reach the heights of that classic era run but they are certainly bringing it live.
Why is it not fair though ? If the sound changes and loses some of its emotional impact or quality, why is that not fair game to criticize?
Not trying to argue at all, just trying to see where you are coming from.
Flea wrote:I could make an argument that the opening 5 songs are as strong a nut punch as any quintet they have featured on an album. And Ramonz, I definitely disagree with you on Darkened Flags - that is what Bruce had in mind when he sang about "I learned more from a 3 minute record...than I ever learned in school". My favorite Patterson offering on the set.
I wouldn't argue with you one bit about the nut-punching strength of the first 5 tunes. It's just (or becoming more like "was just") something about Darkened Flags in that spot for me.
Again, going back to a Bruce analogy, Darkened Flags' second slot is akin a Adam Raised A Cain on Darkness (and I really really want to hear the Adam cover resurrected).
Agree on the "hawk swoop" part of TGOU someone mentioned. Lots of words in there when perhaps fewer would have worked. I am always intrigued by band dynamics on stuff like that - does Cooley hear that and, if his ears perk up, suggest a minor trim? Does he ignore it because he doesn't want PH doing the same to him? Did Jason stick his neck in and make suggestions to Patterson's and Cooley's songs back in the day? Guessing so, and it probably began to not sit so well. Did it make some songs better ultimately, despite the tension it created? Maybe? I certainly have no idea. Guessing there is some healthy competition and editing that goes on when three absurdly talented writers are vying for shelf space on the albums.
We've all debated on here which albums could be great starts for initiating non-fans. If you group the bands output loosely into 4 periods (pre-SRO, SRO, Jason as a member, and Jay/Matt era), clearly AB is a fantastic sampling of their best later-period work. And incredibly, it really stands up to any of the other periods as well. Yes, different band and different times, but just as good in its own way. You can count on one hand the number of "veteran" bands that are able to create such consistently-great work.
nowigotworry wrote:His (Patterson's) songs these days just all sound the same, have no power (what happened to the guitars? I thought this band was ABOUT the guitars), seem to touch on the same general topics, and often lack strong melodies...they just sound kind of tossed off, even though I get the impression that they're not.
This is from an interview Patterson did with the New and Observer in Raleigh when they played Hopscotch in 2011. Unfortunately, the interview is no longer online. Of course, this is in reference to the era when Go-Go Boots was released but as he says, it applies to their career overall.
"The show now is very different from last year," Hood says. " 'Big To-Do' was faster-paced, but I like the dynamic of the show right now. We never set out to be this constant barrage of guitar solos and stage pyrotechnics, which almost became expected at some point. This show is closer to where we like it, with the songs as the focus. We are first and foremost a songwriter's band. Somewhere along the way we became known as a guitar band, which we've rebelled against at times."
jr29 wrote:
Why is it not fair though ? If the sound changes and loses some of its emotional impact or quality, why is that not fair game to criticize?
Not trying to argue at all, just trying to see where you are coming from.
Unfair was probably the wrong word. Most bands have a small window where they write & release the best work of their career. And then generally they never reach those heights again. Comparing a new album to albums that came out 10 or 20 years ago (especially with different band members) is like comparing apples & oranges. Do I think AB is as good as SRO, DD, TDS, or even ABAAC? No. But I think it's as good as anything they've done since.
Turn you demons into walls of goddamned noise and sound.
jr29 wrote:
Why is it not fair though ? If the sound changes and loses some of its emotional impact or quality, why is that not fair game to criticize?
Not trying to argue at all, just trying to see where you are coming from.
Unfair was probably the wrong word. Most bands have a small window where they write & release the best work of their career. And then generally they never reach those heights again. Comparing a new album to albums that came out 10 or 20 years ago (especially with different band members) is like comparing apples & oranges. Do I think AB is as good as SRO, DD, TDS, or even ABAAC? No. But I think it's as good as anything they've done since.
ramonz wrote:
Agree on the "hawk swoop" part of TGOU someone mentioned. Lots of words in there when perhaps fewer would have worked. I am always intrigued by band dynamics on stuff like that - does Cooley hear that and, if his ears perk up, suggest a minor trim? Does he ignore it because he doesn't want PH doing the same to him? Did Jason stick his neck in and make suggestions to Patterson's and Cooley's songs back in the day? Guessing so, and it probably began to not sit so well. Did it make some songs better ultimately, despite the tension it created? Maybe? I certainly have no idea. Guessing there is some healthy competition and editing that goes on when three absurdly talented writers are vying for shelf space on the albums.
That was me, and then I immediately deleted it because I guess I'm still in self-conscious transition from lurker to participant.
But just so no one's confused, I had asked whether the phrasing in that line flows naturally on the leaked album, or if the "upon a stream" bit made the record, as I've heard Patterson omit it live in at least one recording and I thought it worked better syllabically with fewer words.
brett27295 wrote:Most bands have a small window where they write & release the best work of their career. And then generally they never reach those heights again.
I can think of three counterexamples right off the top of my head: Dylan, Morrison, Zevon. All solo artists. Hm. Does Some Girls stand far enough outside the zone for the Stones?
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be
brett27295 wrote:Most bands have a small window where they write & release the best work of their career. And then generally they never reach those heights again.
I can think of three counterexamples right off the top of my head: Dylan, Morrison, Zevon. All solo artists. Hm. Does Some Girls stand far enough outside the zone for the Stones?
Cool. I can think of hundreds of examples that support my original point. Also, I can't imagine anyone thinks Some Girls even touches the greatness of that Beggars Banquet/Let It Bleed/Sticky Fingers/Exile on Main St run. I also think you're wrong about Dylan as long as you include Blood on the Tracks & Desire in his "greatness" window. But hey, to each their own.
Turn you demons into walls of goddamned noise and sound.
brett27295 wrote:Most bands have a small window where they write & release the best work of their career. And then generally they never reach those heights again.
I can think of three counterexamples right off the top of my head: Dylan, Morrison, Zevon. All solo artists. Hm. Does Some Girls stand far enough outside the zone for the Stones?
Cool. I can think of hundreds of examples that support my original point. Also, I can't imagine anyone thinks Some Girls even touches the greatness of that Beggars Banquet/Let It Bleed/Sticky Fingers/Exile on Main St run. I also think you're wrong about Dylan as long as you include Blood on the Tracks & Desire in his "greatness" window. But hey, to each their own.
Some Girls is a nearly perfect record. Since I'm at it, I also maintain that Goat's Head Soup should be held in much higher regard than it is.
brett27295 wrote:Most bands have a small window where they write & release the best work of their career. And then generally they never reach those heights again.
I can think of three counterexamples right off the top of my head: Dylan, Morrison, Zevon. All solo artists. Hm. Does Some Girls stand far enough outside the zone for the Stones?
Cool. I can think of hundreds of examples that support my original point. Also, I can't imagine anyone thinks Some Girls even touches the greatness of that Beggars Banquet/Let It Bleed/Sticky Fingers/Exile on Main St run. I also think you're wrong about Dylan as long as you include Blood on the Tracks & Desire in his "greatness" window. But hey, to each their own.
Love and Theft might be Dylan's best record. And there is some very weak stuff between Blonde on Blonde and Planet Waves. And yeah, I think Some Girls is as good a record as the Stones ever made.
The thing about bands versus solo artists is that bands have a lot more moving parts. Dylan knows how to pick and choose his collaborators. So did Zevon. With a band, you have a more limited palette unless you change out personnel.
Paradoxically, that means bands have a harder time changing and growing. Dylan can wake up tomorrow and decide to make something new under the sun. (And there's another counterexample--Randy Newman.) Not so easy for a band.
But here's another band counterexample--Camper Van Beethoven. New Roman Times is as good as the first three. Different, but just as good. And there's David Bowie, too.
Last edited by John A Arkansawyer on Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be
I haven't really heard "Sun Don't Shine" or "Baggage" yet, but otherwise, nowigotworry has a point: There isn't really a rocker from Patterson among the ones I have heard. I like what he's put on here that I've heard just fine, but still.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be
jr29 wrote:Leonard Cohen, Rodney Crowell, Guy Clark, Dave Alvin, Jay Farrar. ...very little, if any, decline in those guys as the years have gone by.
I'll add John Prine to that list. Fair and Square (his last studio effort of all new material) is no Sweet Revenge but it's not the sound of someone phoning it in either. Since the release of that album in 2005 he's been at work on an album of all new material that will be the follow up his new duets record (For Better Or Worse, due this month). Chances are, it won't be on a par with the work he did in his prime but one thing is for sure, the guy feels no need to rush out an album every year. Guy Clark was the same way.
Reading the posts about Patterson's "declining" songwriting makes me madder than the comment section on a Huffington Post article.
As far as comparing the new stuff to the old stuff, I think that's perfectly fair and valid, as most of the songs on AB are just as good as anything on PD, DD, SRO or TDS. There was a period where i stayed away from comparing their new releases to the sacred era records, but I think this one is par with them.
Maybe it's not your thing and that's cool. Lucero lost me almost completely starting with Overton Park, and that's a lot of 3dders favorite Lucero album.
paulc wrote:
I think it's more due to Cooley's songs coming to the fore on the last two albums.
Which I believe has been mentioned numerous times by numerous people. Cooley himself admitted that he was going through some writers block during the GGB/TBTD era, but even before that he wasn't contributing nearly the number of tracks per album that Patterson had. These last two albums it's clear the writers block is long gone, both in terms of quality and quantity. I think Cooley has put the last two albums over the top...and that has nothing to do with Patterson's songs which I quite like (I said earlier in this thread that Guns is one of the best he's ever written). It's more the fact that Cooley has contributed so many high quality tracks to both EO and AB.
Turn you demons into walls of goddamned noise and sound.
When Heat LIghtning came out, I said how cool it was that the songs were distinctly Patterson, but also decidedly not DBT. It was exciting that such a prolific songwriter could stay true to himself, yet deliver a set of songs that were set apart from the band's sound.
But then EO came out, and it felt like there was some bleed over. Walter and Hanging On didn't sound like DBT songs to me. They sounded like Patterson solo songs.
The only AB song from Hood I've heard is What it Means, but only a couple of times. I'm curious to hear if any of these new songs have that "solo" sound to them, and if maybe that's what others are attributing to some sort of "decline"
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever
Zip City wrote:When Heat LIghtning came out, I said how cool it was that the songs were distinctly Patterson, but also decidedly not DBT. It was exciting that such a prolific songwriter could stay true to himself, yet deliver a set of songs that were set apart from the band's sound.
But then EO came out, and it felt like there was some bleed over. Walter and Hanging On didn't sound like DBT songs to me. They sounded like Patterson solo songs.
The only AB song from Hood I've heard is What it Means, but only a couple of times. I'm curious to hear if any of these new songs have that "solo" sound to them, and if maybe that's what others are attributing to some sort of "decline"
This vibes with my point. I don't necessarily think Hood is declining; as a lyricist in particular, he's as strong as ever. It's just that the mellow, strummy, Heat Lightning sound is both not what I identify with DBT, and not really what I'm into, and it's made up the majority of his output over the last two records. I miss Hood having both a lyrical and musical edge. Umpqua, for example, is a great song, but musically it almost feels like an afterthought. When the Sun Don't Shine feels like it came directly from the HL sessions.
For me the evolution the band has done since TBTD is exactly what I was hoping to see. My favorite three albums have been GGB, EO and now AB. I was around for all the others I just really dig the changes they've made. Adding Gonzalez and Patton has made their sound so much more appealing. Both are out of this world talented. It's hard to make the same album over and over for a band and why as fans would we want that. Those earlier albums stand their ground for a reason as do the new ones and shouldn't be dublicated
Kevidently wrote:Of all the songs, "Filthy & Fried" was the one that brings the tears to my eyes. I need to get deeper.
Wow, really? Guns Of Umpqua is the tear jerker for me. I can't listen to it around people really, if I do I try to take my mind elsewhere because if I listen too close I will get glassy eyed.
Yeah, it really kicks my ass no matter where I am. Had to compose myself driving to work the other day...
Yes, "Umpqua" is hitting me more and more, as is "Ever South." I think my initial reaction to "Filthy & Fried" is something about the music rather than the lyrics. Hitting me in just the right way.
DebbieTrucker wrote:For me the evolution the band has done since TBTD is exactly what I was hoping to see. My favorite three albums have been GGB, EO and now AB. I was around for all the others I just really dig the changes they've made. Adding Gonzalez and Patton has made their sound so much more appealing. Both are out of this world talented. It's hard to make the same album over and over for a band and why as fans would we want that. Those earlier albums stand their ground for a reason as do the new ones and shouldn't be dublicated
I think I like Go Go Boots better than English Oceans. There are songs I skip a lot on it, but the high points are among the very highest. GGB is a big favorite of mine.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be
DebbieTrucker wrote:For me the evolution the band has done since TBTD is exactly what I was hoping to see. My favorite three albums have been GGB, EO and now AB. I was around for all the others I just really dig the changes they've made. Adding Gonzalez and Patton has made their sound so much more appealing. Both are out of this world talented. It's hard to make the same album over and over for a band and why as fans would we want that. Those earlier albums stand their ground for a reason as do the new ones and shouldn't be dublicated
I think I like Go Go Boots better than English Oceans. There are songs I skip a lot on it, but the high points are among the very highest. GGB is a big favorite of mine.
GGB and EO are pretty high on my list if I were to rank the records, which I've decided is futile, but I like AB better than both.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
I am enjoying reading the many different opinions regarding the new album. There have been a lot of great points made on both sides of the fence. I am currently limited to a tablet which I hate typing on, just getting this far in to this post and I am ready to smash this fucker, otherwise I would share my complete thoughts.
Basically where I stand is lyrically this album is easily some of the best, if not the best work DBT has ever produced. Musically I would describe it as beautiful. It isn't a rocker like so many DBT fans are accustomed to or were initially drawn to the DBTs by. I don't think it was meant to be or needs to be. This is an album with a message. To drown the lyrical content of this album in three guitars would have undermined the message. At least that is my opinion.
That being said I do hope the next album, yes I am already looking that far ahead, is a rocker. Blazing guitars and thundering back beats. While I have got to experience those hard rocking three hour three axe attack shows dozens of times, Nov. 19 will be my girlfriend's first DBT show. While she is already a fan of both the mellow and the hard songs alike I expect her first show won't resemble the shows I was going to 8 years ago. I still expect she and I will have a great experience in Atlanta and she will walk away an even bigger fan than she is already but a part of me wishes I could take her to a mid-2000s era show for her first one.
American Band isn't dominated by either Hood or Cooley if you ask me. They both bring some of their best lyrical work of their career to the table on this one.
I have pushed the limits of my patience with this tablet on this post further than I initially expected to so I am going to leave it at that for now.
I'd like to say I'm sorry, I'd like to say I'm sorry, I'd like to say I'm sorry...BUT I AIN'T SORRY!
DebbieTrucker wrote:For me the evolution the band has done since TBTD is exactly what I was hoping to see. My favorite three albums have been GGB, EO and now AB. I was around for all the others I just really dig the changes they've made. Adding Gonzalez and Patton has made their sound so much more appealing. Both are out of this world talented. It's hard to make the same album over and over for a band and why as fans would we want that. Those earlier albums stand their ground for a reason as do the new ones and shouldn't be dublicated
I think I like Go Go Boots better than English Oceans. There are songs I skip a lot on it, but the high points are among the very highest. GGB is a big favorite of mine.
the fun thing about a band with this much depth to the catalog is that I don't dislike GGB or think it's bad, but I don't love it and it's definitely my least favorite DBT record by a significant margin.
I appreciate it as a catalog record, but if that was how I'd been introduced to DBT, I wouldn't be here posting/lurking/reading.
