English Oceans At Six Months

[RolanK]

I have a hard time rating albums in general, and especially from bands I am into like DBT, so I seldom participate in such exercise.

I've pretty much quit doing so as well. I do have favorite songs, albums, concerts, etc. but trying to assign some sort of rating to art seems more like an exercise in futility.

Excatcly. I also find that different albums suit different moods or situations. I find I may want to listen to a specific album at a certain time, say when I am alone in the house late in the evening, driving or whatever.

[Kudzu Guillotine]

I have a hard time rating albums in general, and especially from bands I am into like DBT, so I seldom participate in such exercise.

I've pretty much quit doing so as well. I do have favorite songs, albums, concerts, etc. but trying to assign some sort of rating to art seems more like an exercise in futility.

Excatcly. I also find that different albums suit different moods or situations. I find I may want to listen to a specific album at a certain time, say when I am alone in the house late in the evening, driving or whatever.

I think it also says a lot that every time a rate the albums or songs thread appears, it's promptly moved to the Everything Else section. I don't necessarily agree with that but then again, I'm not one of the ones running the board. I also see no harm in rating records, songs, live shows, etc. but I've taken less of an interest in it in recent years.

[Mike127]

I think it also says a lot that every time a rate the albums or songs thread appears, it's promptly moved to the Everything Else section. I don't necessarily agree with that but then again, I'm not one of the ones running the board. I also see no harm in rating records, songs, live shows, etc. but I've taken less of an interest in it in recent years.

I'm certainly not immune to participating in album ratings or things of that nature, though it's certainly not the most important aspect of loving a band. I guess my original impetus for posting my defense of GGB in this thread was just seeing so many comments that made it sound like a settled opinion that it wasn't among their best works. Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I can easily see why for some fans that would be the case, but it just seemed so at odds with my own feelings about GGB that I was hoping I wasn't alone in ranking it among my favorites!

[one belt loop]

On the heels of the release of English Oceans, I kept hearing Go-Go Boots and The Big To-Do being referred to as "bloated". Funny, I don't recall anyone ever using that (or similar terms) to describe those records when they were new. Perhaps it had something to do with English Oceans being touted as a return to a lean and mean DBT's even though they were only down by one member.

I did. I felt both of them needed a more firm editorial hand. I was looking at it like a publishing piece, where someone OTHER than the author needs to take an objective look at the contents and trim in a way that might be painful to the artist initially, but creates a stronger final product. Like Stephen King. Dude needs a good, stern editor or he goes off the rails.

I may not have used the word bloated, and I possibly did not put my opinions up to be pilloried on this forum. But I definitely had that discussion more than once.

[Zip City]

English Oceans, in my opinion, follows the trend we've seen since ABAAC: multiple sngwriters doing their own things with the hopes that a cohesive album can be puzzled together. Is it a bad thing that everyone is following their own muse? Of course not, but I feel the reason that the Holy Trinity is, well, the Holy Trinity, is that the songwriters were all on the same page and striving towards a similar goal. I don't feel the same way about the more recent string of records.

Tying this notion to GGB, I've always felt indifferent to Cooley's three songs due to the fact that they felt shoe-horned into Patterson's songs.

[Kudzu Guillotine]

I guess I'm of the mind that there's never any such thing as too much DBT's but I do agree with the criticism that two songs about the same subject from the same writer approaches overkill. Then again, Patterson seems to get on jags like that. I believe he even knocked a song off The Dirty South because he already had two songs on there about the "Southern Mafia" ("Boys From Alabama", "The Buford Stick"). If memory serves, the other song was "The Great Car Dealer War".

[Kudzu Guillotine]

English Oceans, in my opinion, follows the trend we've seen since ABAAC: multiple sngwriters doing their own things with the hopes that a cohesive album can be puzzled together. Is it a bad thing that everyone is following their own muse? Of course not, but I feel the reason that the Holy Trinity is, well, the Holy Trinity, is that the songwriters were all on the same page and striving towards a similar goal. I don't feel the same way about the more recent string of records.

To the contrary, it appears that there's several songs on English Oceans where Patterson and Cooley ended up writing about the same (or at least similar) subjects. That was evidently done without the other being aware of it so maybe they weren't working towards a common theme but they still did so independently.

[Zip City]

English Oceans, in my opinion, follows the trend we've seen since ABAAC: multiple sngwriters doing their own things with the hopes that a cohesive album can be puzzled together. Is it a bad thing that everyone is following their own muse? Of course not, but I feel the reason that the Holy Trinity is, well, the Holy Trinity, is that the songwriters were all on the same page and striving towards a similar goal. I don't feel the same way about the more recent string of records.

To the contrary, it appears that there's several songs on English Oceans where Patterson and Cooley ended up writing about the same (or at least similar) subjects. That was evidently done without the other being aware of it so maybe they weren't working towards a common theme but they still did so independently.

There's always the inevitable synchronicity of ideas between the two, but stylistically, EO goes in about 7 different directions

[Kudzu Guillotine]

English Oceans, in my opinion, follows the trend we've seen since ABAAC: multiple sngwriters doing their own things with the hopes that a cohesive album can be puzzled together. Is it a bad thing that everyone is following their own muse? Of course not, but I feel the reason that the Holy Trinity is, well, the Holy Trinity, is that the songwriters were all on the same page and striving towards a similar goal. I don't feel the same way about the more recent string of records.

To the contrary, it appears that there's several songs on English Oceans where Patterson and Cooley ended up writing about the same (or at least similar) subjects. That was evidently done without the other being aware of it so maybe they weren't working towards a common theme but they still did so independently.

There's always the inevitable synchronicity of ideas between the two, but stylistically, EO goes in about 7 different directions

I don't get that out of English Oceans when I listen to it.

[Tequila Cowboy]

I don't get that out of English Oceans when I listen to it.

Nor I. I think it's a pretty cohesive whole.

[roland]

Still in the rotation, but I can't get over the glaring recording flaws in the Cooley songs. The hiss and high pitched whine in three tracks nearly ruin the album for me. It has some really good songs, but every time I listen, I'm disappointed.

[Zip City]

Still in the rotation, but I can't get over the glaring recording flaws in the Cooley songs. The hiss and high pitched whine in three tracks nearly ruin the album for me. It has some really good songs, but every time I listen, I'm disappointed.

I've got "whine-free" versions if you want them

[Zip City]

I don't get that out of English Oceans when I listen to it.

Nor I. I think it's a pretty cohesive whole.

I disagree. Hangin' On and Walter sound like Patterson solo songs. Natural Light is completely out of left field.

I'm in no way saying that any of the songs are bad on their own, but I think that it seems a bit disjointed as an album.

[Kudzu Guillotine]

I don't get that out of English Oceans when I listen to it.

Nor I. I think it's a pretty cohesive whole.

I disagree. Hangin' On and Walter sound like Patterson solo songs. Natural Light is completely out of left field.

I'm in no way saying that any of the songs are bad on their own, but I think that it seems a bit disjointed as an album.

I have a hard time distinguishing what I would consider to be Patterson solo material vs. what belongs on a DBT's record. It all seems to fit to me even though I've found Heat Lightning Rumbles In the Distance to be his most distinctive yet. I do have to agree with you on "Natural Light", it stands out like a sore thumb on the record but that doesn't mean it doesn't fit. I could say the same about some (if not all) of Rob Malone's songs. I think some of Shonna's tunes stood out even more as far as not fitting the bigger picture.

[Zip City]

Walter feels like Patterson solo due to it being a piano based song

[Duke Silver]

What's so sore-thumbish about Natural Light? Just sounds like DBT to me.

[Kudzu Guillotine]

What's so sore-thumbish about Natural Light? Just sounds like DBT to me.

It also sounds like DBT to me but it definitely stands out from the other tracks from the album, maybe because it's the most country-ish tune of the bunch. That's not a bad thing, nor does it detract from the album as a whole but it does cause that particular tune to stand out from the others. At least to my ears.

[Rotgut Moonshine]

At first I really, really liked half the songs and simply liked the rest.. The second half has pulled up closer to the top half over time. Shit Shots is up there with my favorite all-time DBT songs for sure.

That being said, ranking the album against its predecessors is uncomfortable for me. Especially with a band that has evolved and morphed and rocked for so damn long as the Truckers have. However I will say that the song writing, both the music and the lyrics, seems to have a better energy than a few years ago. That's just my opinion, part of which is based on the band seemingly in a really good place when they produced EO.

EO blasting its way through my earholes on the rides to and from work is a very pleasurable experience. The only thing that makes it better is listening to those guys LIVE blasting it through my earholes whilst sustaining a good buzz. Rock on y'all!

[Iowan]

Hanging On feels more Patterson solo-ish than Walter, just due to the subject matter.

But I get why anyone would feel that way about either of them.

[Cole Younger]

Hanging On feels more Patterson solo-ish than Walter, just due to the subject matter.

But I get why anyone would feel that way about either of them.

I agree with this. Hangin On feels like a left over track from Heat Lightning. Not a bad song but it does kind of stand out.

[wolfgang]

I haven't listened to EO in months. I can't see that changing much.

[RevMatt]

Listened to the vinyl straight through today. It still strikes me as a very strong record. DBT is a very different band than they were ten years ago. That is a combination of new musicians and the three man core of Cooley, Hood and Morgan having grown both as musicians and people. Right now they are around the same age as Neil Young when he released Ragged Glory and Harvest Moon. Cooley is one year older than Jerry Garcia was when The Dead recorded their last studio album, Built to Last and Mick Jagger when The Stones released Steel Wheels. They are the same age as Tom Waits when he released Mule Variations and Lou Reed when he did Magic and Loss. All of those records were considered strong "late career" offerings when they were released and I think English Oceans compares favorably with those three records.

Name some albums recorded by a band or artist near the age of fifty that are as good or better than English Oceans? It isn't easy to come up with a list.

[beantownbubba]

Name some albums recorded by a band or artist near the age of fifty that are as good or better than English Oceans? It isn't easy to come up with a list.

But that's not the standard, or at least I hope it's not.

[Gaetzi]

Cooley is one year older than Jerry Garcia was when The Dead recorded their last studio album

That's pretty crazy.. I forget Garcia was only in his early 50's when he died, he certainly looked 20 years older and worse for the wear. As a huge fan of both bands, I'd say EO is much a stronger record than Built to Last. At least if you were to compare those albums to each bands previous output. I think EO has a level of freshness and creativity that Built to Last doesn't. Case in point: DBT got together as a band, holed up in a studio and made this tremendous album in a few weeks, with Cooley finally coming through huge with half the tracks (Think about this: as Garcia was totally fading out with his body failing him, Cooley has apparently just hit his stride w song writing). With Built to Last, my understanding is the band all went in and recorded their parts seperately. The total anthisis of what the GD was all about: that group mind, the 8 headed monster acting as one. DBT still has that ethos going strong (maybe stronger than ever) while the Dead were somewhat on autopilot, although I really like Foolish Heart and Built to Last. Whatever shape Jerry or his band were in, the guy was incapable of not creating magic. He was one of a kind.

All that said, I think the fact that DBT can still share a single tour bus, share a smaller stage and still get together and put out quality albums they're really proud of says a lot. It's very encouraging to me for the long term future of DBT. The world needs rocks and Roll. The world was a better place with the Grateful Dead and the world is a better place with the Drive by Truckers. Knowing Cooley is out there somehwere in America, belting out Zip City with the band raging behind him and the crowd singing every word. That's comforting to me.

I realize I just went on a tangent there and the Rev wasn't trying to make a comparison but thinking that Cooley is now older than Garcia was making Built to Last really got me to pause and think.

[RevMatt]

Name some albums recorded by a band or artist near the age of fifty that are as good or better than English Oceans? It isn't easy to come up with a list.

But that's not the standard, or at least I hope it's not.

No, that isn't the standard. But at some point age has to be brought into the discussion because it is a big part of the DBT story.

Patterson Hood and Mike Cooley were in their thirties when they formed Drive By Truckers in 1996. They released four albums and toured for eight years before they reached national act status in 2002. They released four albums on their own before Lost Highway paid for the second pressing of Southern Rock Opera. This makes Patterson Hood 38 and Mike Cooley 36 when they finally got the kind of record deal where the record company fronts the money for the recording, mastering and manufacture of an album. It is pretty unprecedented for a band to get their first record deal when they are past the age of thirty-five. The only guy I can think of is Alex Harvey who was 37 when The Sensational Alex Harvey band was signed.

Since 2004 Drive By Truckers have released The Dirty South, A Blessing and a Curse, Brighter Than Creation's Dark, The Fine Print, The Big To Do, Go Go Boots and English Oceans. I don't think there are very many artists in any musical genre who have produced a comparable body of work when they were past the age of 40. The only guy I can think of is Leonard Cohen who turned 40 in 1974.

No, age should never be the standard. Great albums are the sole standard. But when age is taken into consideration DBT's accomplishments are amazing. Songwriters tend to be very prolific during the first ten years of practicing the craft. When the process is new the inspiration for new songs seems endless. Songwriters take this for granted. But after a certain number of years a songwriter almost has to relearn the craft or, at the very least, develop the sort of disciplined set of work habits he might have scoffed at when he was 25. Great songs are harder to come by.

Producing such a great body of work past the age of 40 is one of the reasons why I am in awe of DBT. Their accomplishments are almost unprecedented.

[Kudzu Guillotine]

I thought I'd remembered reading that Willie Nelson didn't have his first hit until the age of 50 with "Blue Eyes Cryin' In the Rain". Turns out, he was actually 42 but still, that's pretty remarkable. It's also worth noting how well his new record has been received. Not bad for an 81 year old.

[RevMatt]

I thought I'd remembered reading that Willie Nelson didn't have his first hit until the age of 50 with "Blue Eyes Cryin' In the Rain". Turns out, he was actually 42 but still, that's pretty remarkable. It's also worth noting how well his new record has been received. Not bad for an 81 year old.

Absolutely. And how about Tom Petty being number 1 on the charts?

I would say it is a very small group of artists who produce a substantial body of work after the age of 40. Leonard Cohen, DBT, Willie Nelson -- not bad company to be in. Most are phasing out their careers in their forties or just touring and playing their older songs.

[cortez the killer]

Neil Young albums released after turning forty:

Landing on Water (1986)
Life (1987)
This Note's for You (1988)
Eldorado (1989)
Freedom (1989)
Ragged Glory (1990)
Harvest Moon (1992)
Sleeps with Angels (1994)
Mirror Ball (1995)
Broken Arrow (1996)
Silver & Gold (2000)
Are You Passionate? (2002)
Greendale (2003)
Prairie Wind (2005)
Living with War (2006)
Chrome Dreams II (2007)
Fork in the Road (2009)
Le Noise (2010)
Americana (2012)
Psychedelic Pill (2012)
A Letter Home (2014)

The bolded ones are those I consider to be good to great. Plenty of quantity (more post-40 releases than pre-40 ones) & quality there.

[Kudzu Guillotine]

Though it seems to be a bit of a controversial topic, I have to throw Dylan in there as well especially for Time Out of Mind and Love and Theft. John Prine and Guy Clark are also worth a mention. While their best work may be behind them, a lot of folks their age have long since given up the ghost to go the nostalgia route. That said, I'm afraid Prine's Fair & Square (2005) may be the last album of original material we ever hear from him. Prior to that his last album of all new material was 1995's Lost Dogs and Mixed Blessings. I believe Emmylou (67) , Rodney Crowell (64), Bonnie Raitt (64) and Jackson Browne (65) are worth a mention though I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

[RevMatt]

Though it seems to be a bit of a controversial topic, I have to throw Dylan in there as well especially for Time Out of Mind and Love and Theft. John Prine and Guy Clark are also worth a mention. While their best work may be behind them, a lot of folks their age have long since given up the ghost to go the nostalgia route. That said, I'm afraid Prine's Fair & Square (2005) may be the last album of original material we ever hear from him. Prior to that his last album of all new material was 1995's Lost Dogs and Mixed Blessings. I believe Emmylou (67) , Rodney Crowell (64), Bonnie Raitt (64) and Jackson Browne (65) are worth a mention though I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

Dylan's return to musical greatness with Time Out of Mind is a great story. He spent years on the road hoping for a breakthrough with his songwriting. It finally paid off in 1997. This is an example of what I meant when I mentioned how a songwriter often has to relearn his craft when the process is no longer new.

During the same period Paul McCartney also had a return to musical vitality. IMO, what he has done since Flaming Pie is fantastic but because he had no Top 40 hit songs McCartney's return to musical greatness has been completely under the radar.

John Hiatt is another artist whose albums he recorded after reaching the age of forty are as good, if not better than what he did prior to reaching that age. Richard Thompson turned 40 in 1989 and the albums he has released since then are also fantastic.

The post-forty return to form is not common but it is not unprecedented. Bands or artists who first got on people's radar when they reached middle age is not very common. So far in this thread the artists who fit in that category are Drive By Truckers (first record deal when the principle members reached the ages of 38 and 36), Willie Nelson (he was a Nashville based songwriter at a younger age but became a successful recording and touring artist after the age of 35) and Leonard Cohen (was a published writer in his 20's but was in his mid-thirties when he began his career as a recording artist/songwriter). I also mentioned Alex Harvey who was past the age of 35 when he was first signed. The Sensational Alex Harvey Band had a respectable career in the UK during the seventies but their records never got a whole lot of airplay in the USA.