Preventing Dickheadery at DBT Shows

[RevMatt]

A couple months ago someone from DBT's management posted that people throwing things on the stage during rock shows was becoming an increasing concern and asked us to be more vigilant. And this past weekend one of our 3DD regulars left a DBT show early due to the behavior of people who were standing near him, his wife and friends.

Question: What can we do to prevent this sort of crap from ruining people's good times?

I don't have any real answers, but maybe it would be a good idea for people to stick together and watch out for one another at shows. I don't think a person would be as likely to attempt to grope someone if he knew she was standing among a big crowd of people. Usually there are around fifteen 3DD regulars at a show. Maybe we can watch out for each other and others, especially along the rail.

Personally, I have never had a problem at a DBT show. But I am unusual in that I usually choose to sit at the rear of the venue or in the front row of the balcony.

[Clams]

Well I guess I should chime in since I'm the one who opened this can o' worms. First thing is, it's a fine line. To quote PH directly from his email...

I take this shit really seriously and try to be as involved as possible, but from where I stand, it's sometimes hard to judge. Sometimes it's a fine line between a bunch of friends having a rowdy good time and some douchebag ruining everyone else's good time. I'm willing to err on the side of bouncing some MF if it seems like it's getting bad, but I've also probably bounced one or two who might not have quite deserved it.

So you have that issue.
What to do about it? Well assholery is going to happen. If it happens near the stage, then Patterson or Cooley can handle it via a few choice words to the dickheads or they can sick Damon on the offender. But I don't think there's much they can do if it happens in the middle or back of the club. They can say a few words from the stage and maybe that'll work (or maybe not). Maybe they can put a rider in their contracts requiring the clubs to have extra security on the floor at DBT shows.

[WoodDuck]

Maybe they can put a rider in their contracts requiring the clubs to have extra security on the floor at DBT shows.

You'd think it'd be understood by now..

[davec53]

i think that this, like a lot of other problems today, comes in no small part from folks just not learning good manners any more.

just teaching a kid to say "thank you", or "yes sir" and "no ma'am" when they are growing up...or to hold a door open for someone...cover their mouth/nose when they sneeze...it all seems so small, but i think it leads directly to the high number of dickheads running around today, a concentrated population of which seems to end up at EVERY concert, not just DBT.

folks that shove past you like it is their god-given right...or "sneak" a few rows up...or text/talk with friends during the whole show...or constantly set their drinks on the stage, despite repeated warnings from venue folks to NOT do so...or have to leave 17 times for drinks and end up seeing about 30 minutes of a 2 hour show...basically, people who think that the world revolves around them, and that show, that night, is exclusively for THEIR enjoyment.

I lose myself at a show, DBT shows in particular...i'm overcome with emotions...and while I certainly get "active" during the show, singing, jumping, head thrashing...lol...i always try to be aware of the folks who are around me, so that i don't ruin it for anyone else.

sadly, i don't think there's a whole lot that CAN be done about it....maybe start selling the first few rows exclusively to 3DD members??

[sg207]

All good thoughts, but I'm not sure there is anything that can be done about it. As Dave mentioned, it happens at almost all crowded shows anymore.

And this is one of the big reasons that I pretty much no longer hang out at the front at shows. It's not worth the pushing and shoving. It's not worth being called every name in the book by somebody six inches taller than you because you won't let them through when they just showed up halfway through the show and you got there at the beginning.

I realized I was spending the majority of my time at concerts pissed off, so I just started going to the back. While it's not where I prefer to be, it leaves me in a much better mood.

[Clams]

just teaching a kid to say "thank you", or "yes sir" and "no ma'am" when they are growing up...or to hold a door open for someone...cover their mouth/nose when they sneeze...it all seems so small, but i think it leads directly to the high number of dickheads running around today, a concentrated population of which seems to end up at EVERY concert, not just DBT.

folks that shove past you like it is their god-given right...or "sneak" a few rows up...or text/talk with friends during the whole show...or constantly set their drinks on the stage, despite repeated warnings from venue folks to NOT do so...or have to leave 17 times for drinks and end up seeing about 30 minutes of a 2 hour show...basically, people who think that the world revolves around them, and that show, that night, is exclusively for THEIR enjoyment.

I like a couple of drinks at a show as much as anyone, but I think it mostly has to do with the following equation:

large quantities of booze + guys in their early 20's = douchebaggery

[davec53]

i like to show up early...hit a nice local bar, have some good beer, get to the show...maybe have a few more...but when it gets started, i'm pretty much planted in place.

i'm thinking that you may be on to something, sg207...the anger from having to try and hold your ground near the front of a GA show, when you showed up early and John Q Fratboy showed up halfway through the show and decides he wants to be up front, too, no mater who he pisses off...may just not be worth it in the end.

hell, the sound is usually much better a little farther back, anyway.

[lajakesdad]

I lose myself at a show, DBT shows in particular...i'm overcome with emotions...and while I certainly get "active" during the show, singing, jumping, head thrashing...lol...i always try to be aware of the folks who are around me, so that i don't ruin it for anyone else.

That's me too. I lose myself. But I never shove or ruin somebody else's experience. Haven't had any bad experiences at a DBT show. I don't have to be right in front but I like to be somewhat close. You can usually squeeze your way forward when the music starts. If anyone touched my lady or any girl with our group, I would lose my shit. Hell if I saw any girl getting groped, I would step in.

[tinnitus photography]

this situation is something that GBV fans have to deal w/ too...there is no good solution...

[Maluca3]

The manners comment is right on, but also the respect. It's not that people are talking about the goodnatured and drunken stuff that just happens, but the kinds of situations that escalate after you've asked nicely, and asked again not so nicely, for a person to tone it down. That's where the lack of respect becomes a problem. It's that self-awareness that kicks in like "hm, this lady asked me to stop touching her. it would be a good idea to stop touching her" as opposed to "NO ONE'S GONNA TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!! [touch touch touch touch touch]" I'll forgive a lot if it's followed by "oh dude! I am SO sorry!" and a cessation of the offending behavior, especially if we're talking about PBR spills and drunken wobbling.

[rlipps]

All good thoughts, but I'm not sure there is anything that can be done about it. As Dave mentioned, it happens at almost all crowded shows anymore.

And this is one of the big reasons that I pretty much no longer hang out at the front at shows. It's not worth the pushing and shoving. It's not worth being called every name in the book by somebody six inches taller than you because you won't let them through when they just showed up halfway through the show and you got there at the beginning.

I realized I was spending the majority of my time at concerts pissed off, so I just started going to the back. While it's not where I prefer to be, it leaves me in a much better mood.

I feel exactly the same way, which is why last month in Nashville, I stayed in the main back against the wall for most of the show. The sound was much better and I didn't have to deal with as much of the drunken morons ruining the show because they can't handle their alcohol. Obviously, there's nothing like being on the rail for a DBT show, but like sg said, I usually leave in a much better mood when I hang around the back.

[Iowan]

A manners question (sincere):
Is it ok to move back towards the front if you have to leave to go to the bathroom or something like that?

I never want to be the asshole at shows, but sometimes my girlfriend thinks that if she got to the show early, and got right up front, that it's "her" spot and she's allowed to move back to it if she goes to the bathroom or gets a drink or something. I'm generally less inclined to get territorial about it and just relax and enjoy the show. I like being up front, but I don't need it either.

So my question basically is her returning to her spot disrespectful or ok? I respect the people who go to shows of bands I like (especially DBT) and never want to infringe another's good time.

[Mr. B]

All of the above are good points. Timely post after the Friday night DC incidents and Patterson's noteworthy e-mail to Clams. I posted yesterday in the Chicago thread that I am worried about the douce-bag factor at this weekend's shows in Chicago. In the end, as several of you have already done, the solution may just be for my wife and I to start hanging farther back so that we don't need to worry about the ass-hats. Don't want to do that, but it may make the show more enjoyable on the whole.

One thing that (I assume) the band might be able to do, in addition to giving this issue the attention that they seem to be doing, is to start the shows earlier. That would presumably give people less chance to get drunk and stupid and aggressive. But I don't know if the promoter/venue requires them to go on at a certain time (alcohol sales = profit) and I know the bank has a very long history of starting their shows relatively late, so I don't know if this is a realistic possiblilty as not.

[Jeremy]

large quantities of booze + guy is already a douche+ guys in their 20's,30's or 40's = douchebaggery

Fixed it for you, I have seen plenty of kids at show who have had plenty to drink and havent been assholes, most of the assholes I have dealt with at shows have been in there 30's or 40's.

[sg207]

@Iowan: I typically never minded somebody coming back through the crowd if they had been there up front. I don't know that it's your "spot," but I always respect somebody who got there early enough to get right up front. Especially if they're trying to be nice about it.

@Mr. B: I don't know about that either. My guess is that people will either just drink faster or earlier to compensate. And although I don't really know, DBT doesn't strike me as a band that likes to go on all that early.

And Maluca is right on. There is a big difference between somebody having fun, accidentally being a jerk, and then apologizing and somebody who just decides they are going to do what they want, regardless of anybody else around them. The former I can deal with, and have unfortunately been before. The latter I can't stand, and have hopefully never been.

[beantownbubba]

A manners question (sincere):
Is it ok to move back towards the front if you have to leave to go to the bathroom or something like that?

I never want to be the asshole at shows, but sometimes my girlfriend thinks that if she got to the show early, and got right up front, that it's "her" spot and she's allowed to move back to it if she goes to the bathroom or gets a drink or something. I'm generally less inclined to get territorial about it and just relax and enjoy the show. I like being up front, but I don't need it either.

So my question basically is her returning to her spot disrespectful or ok? I respect the people who go to shows of bands I like (especially DBT) and never want to infringe another's good time.

This issue came up right as we switched from 9B to 3DD as i recall, and IIRC, the strong consensus was that if you're there first, you're "allowed" to use the bathroom and/or get a beer and can return to your spot, altho it's up to you to decide if the hassle is worth it (remember the girls in TSTAHE who decided to wear diapers ), and don't bring your latecoming friends back with you! I personally think that's the right answer, but then again, i'm always at the back or on the side, wherever there's actually room to breathe.

[Beebs]

I'm curious if this is a general rock show thing, no matter who's name is on the marquis, or if there is something specific to the Truckers going on. All shows/all gathering of people will have some folks who are hard to get along with (queue the general decline of manners and mutual respect in our culture).

I'm wondering if there is some misconception out there among casual DBT fans that because DBT is a gritty, (excuse me here) "southern rock" band who passes the bottle on stage that a DBT show is the place where it is acceptable or expected to get too drunk and act like a redneck. They think the point of it is some drunken, redneck spectacle and not the music.

The only analogy I can up with right now is something like a St Patrick's Day parade. Dudes go not really to see a parade, but to get loaded, maybe fight and puke in an alley because that's what they believe is the expected and accepted behavior.

[Erdlivz]

The problem is definitely up front. I hardly ever venture too far up front anymore because there's always going to be a drunk douchebag elbowing his way up. It's understood by me and hard to curtail. Friday night I literally grabbed this dude by the shoulders and stood him in place and told him that he's eventually going to knock into someone that's going to deck him and he should be aware of his surroundings and people by him. That seemed to make it worse. You can't fix stoopid.

I definitely stand corrected after the Athens shows. I stayed in the back and never saw a lot of this groping and complete nonsense along these lines. Seems to be a sick trend after popping up in DC again. I really can't understand it. I think crowd members can help the cause but this all falls into the hands of the venue's security. Make them aware and in the case of last Friday's lax security, make it more known. Personally, I'd either leave the show/change my spot on the floor because I'd hate to ruin the experience for others by picking a fight or take the dude to the bar and explain what the fuck's gonna happen next if he continues.

The throwing of shit on stage should automatically lead to the boot out the door. Point em out and watch Damon drag their ass out the door. I though that was a diaper Friday night. Just a bundled hat of douchebaggery.....and the dude asked for it back and got it after the show.

The upside seems to be Patterson and DBTs awareness. This board definitely helps the cause.

[Iowan]

I'm curious if this is a general rock show thing, no matter who's name is on the marquis, or if there is something specific to the Truckers going on. All shows/all gathering of people will have some folks who are hard to get along with (queue the general decline of manners and mutual respect in our culture).

I'm wondering if there is some misconception out there among casual DBT fans that because DBT is a gritty, (excuse me here) "southern rock" band who passes the bottle on stage that a DBT show is the place where it is acceptable or expected to get too drunk and act like a redneck. They think the point of it is some drunken, redneck spectacle and not the music.

The only analogy I can up with right now is something like a St Patrick's Day parade. Dudes go not really to see a parade, but to get loaded, maybe fight and puke in an alley because that's what they believe is the expected and accepted behavior.

I think it's a rock thing. I've seen far more aggressive behavior at Hold Steady shows than DBT, and I've never been to a GA type-club show where things didn't get drunk and rowdy, unless it was a really mellow band.

Last DBT show I was at, I definitely had too much to drink, more than I had "planned" on, but rather than stumble around and fight (which isn't my nature regardless of how intoxicated I am), I just sat down (it was an old opera hall), enjoyed the show, and stayed out of the way.

[Maluca3]

I can't speak for everyone but I think DBT shows are often way better than most. There is a good community that self-polices, and the band takes it serious, and big fellas with serious stinkeye to impose (like Patterson or Damon) can often nip things right quick. I wonder if maybe what's going on is that we are spoiled and our oasis is starting to bring "outsiders" who have yet to be socialized. I'd like to think that newer fans can be brought around to a non-douchebaggy way of life. I've been to a lot of shows where the scene is way worse, but I don't even bother to try to get down front because of it. that's one of the reasons I love DBT shows. You don't have to wear armor to get close.

Of course, these are not solutions being offered. I think though, that educating people is important. Taking the time to talk to people around us and tell them about what we like is the community. Getting people's names seems to have an impact somehow, as if having people ask who you are someone deflates their ability to act like a random jerkoff later. People stepping up to make people aware of their bad behavior. And then people feeling empowered to point out the jackasses and have them escorted away when politeness fails. And public shaming when that happens to show others what happens when you act like a jerk.

[beantownbubba]

I can't speak for everyone but I think DBT shows are often way better than most. There is a good community that self-polices, and the band takes it serious, and big fellas with serious stinkeye to impose (like Patterson or Damon) can often nip things right quick. I wonder if maybe what's going on is that we are spoiled and our oasis is starting to bring "outsiders" who have yet to be socialized. I'd like to think that newer fans can be brought around to a non-douchebaggy way of life. I've been to a lot of shows where the scene is way worse, but I don't even bother to try to get down front because of it. that's one of the reasons I love DBT shows. You don't have to wear armor to get close.

Of course, these are not solutions being offered. I think though, that educating people is important. Taking the time to talk to people around us and tell them about what we like is the community. Getting people's names seems to have an impact somehow, as if having people ask who you are someone deflates their ability to act like a random jerkoff later. People stepping up to make people aware of their bad behavior. And then people feeling empowered to point out the jackasses and have them escorted away when politeness fails. And public shaming when that happens to show others what happens when you act like a jerk.

I don't go to enough shows these days to say, but my guess was basically what maluca says: It's worse elsewhere and as the crowds at DBT shows grow, more of this behavior gets imported. I'm not sure how much success one/we can have trying to reason w/ sloppy drunks, but nonetheless, i believe everything Maluca says is right and the best way to go about this. The more of those folks that join this site and get the idea of what kind of behavior is expected, the more it will help, too.

[Maluca3]

Thanks man. I'll pay you your 20 bucks later.

[RevMatt]

A few more thoughts:

1) People may say things are worse today, but it was FAR worse in the mid-eighties when slam dancing and mosh pits became the rage. The slam dancing wasn't just confined to hardcore shows but happened at just about any rock show, even groups like Echo and The Bunnymen. It was dangerous and people ended up in the emergency room when some drunken idiot in steel toed boots decided to dive off the stage.

2) One positive thing that someone already mentioned is for the 3DD folks to be a little more visible and pro-active in letting other folks near the rail know about our online community. People are less apt to act like idiots around people they've already made friends with. Plus, who doesn't want a bunch of people to go to shows with?

3) I think in the larger cities the venues are definately overselling the shows well past the legal capacity of the clubs. Not much the fans can do about this.

4) What occurs with the shoving is an almost "crack the whip" effect where something that might start as a mild shove in the middle of the club gets much worse as "the dominos fall" towards the front. The instigator may not be the person directly behind you but something that happened twenty feet back.

5) Consider attending more shows "off the beaten path." Last week I attended one show. (Would have attended more but I had commitments.) The show in Peekskill was at a community theater. There was a great vibe. The staff was made up of people who volunteer to restore the place and make the shows enjoyable for everyone. Even though the pre-game was small by 3DD standards, we went to a used vinyl and book store and a great little restaurant. And the show did not sell out. There were no incidents and the sound was great.

6) We need a zero tolerance for people throwing shit at the stage. Standing under the stage lights is kind of like looking out your window at night with the lights on. You don't see a whole lot. So it isn't until the final split second that a band member notices an object flying towards them. If someone throws something at the stage, point them out to Damon so he can take care of it.

[gerg]

this situation is something that GBV fans have to deal w/ too...there is no good solution...

Yep and yep. It's alcohol. And it's not unique to DbTs or GbV shows, either. Go to any cheap liquor bar on a crowded night. The fact is that some people just act like morons on alcohol. Just manage it as best you can in stride and try not to let it get to you. I, too, don't bother with the front for rock shows anymore for the reasons mentioned above. The sound's better a little further back, anyway, and I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of proximity to the band for being in or near the sweet spot. Fuck tangling with a bunch of hot and bothered tools all night.

[Iowan]

this situation is something that GBV fans have to deal w/ too...there is no good solution...

Yep and yep. It's alcohol. And it's not unique to DbTs or GbV shows, either. Go to any cheap liquor bar on a crowded night. The fact is that some people just act like morons on alcohol. Just manage it as best you can in stride and try not to let it get to you. I, too, don't bother with the front for rock shows anymore for the reasons mentioned above. The sound's better a little further back, anyway, and I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of proximity to the band for being in or near the sweet spot. Fuck tangling with a bunch of hot and bothered tools all night.

"The bottle ain't to blame and I ain't trying to. I don't make you do the thing, it just lets you".

Let's put the blame where it lies. People who get drunk and become assholes are probably assholes to begin with.

[Zip City]

As long as the band is passing around liquor on stage all night, a certain % of the crowd will take that as encouragement to get lit out of their minds. Personally, I have one beer during the opening act and grab a second at the set break, but that's it. I don't enjoy shows when I'm drunk, and I have to drive home afterwards. As such, I'm acutely aware of the drunken assholes around me

[gerg]

this situation is something that GBV fans have to deal w/ too...there is no good solution...

Yep and yep. It's alcohol. And it's not unique to DbTs or GbV shows, either. Go to any cheap liquor bar on a crowded night. The fact is that some people just act like morons on alcohol. Just manage it as best you can in stride and try not to let it get to you. I, too, don't bother with the front for rock shows anymore for the reasons mentioned above. The sound's better a little further back, anyway, and I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of proximity to the band for being in or near the sweet spot. Fuck tangling with a bunch of hot and bothered tools all night.

"The bottle ain't to blame and I ain't trying to. I don't make you do the thing, it just lets you".

Let's put the blame where it lies. People who get drunk and become assholes are probably assholes to begin with.

Probably. Not always. And I'm not even assigning blame, just stating the facts of the matter. There's really not much you can do with people who act out when they're drunk. Put out the occasional plea to the community and hope for the best.

[Iowan]

Yep and yep. It's alcohol. And it's not unique to DbTs or GbV shows, either. Go to any cheap liquor bar on a crowded night. The fact is that some people just act like morons on alcohol. Just manage it as best you can in stride and try not to let it get to you. I, too, don't bother with the front for rock shows anymore for the reasons mentioned above. The sound's better a little further back, anyway, and I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of proximity to the band for being in or near the sweet spot. Fuck tangling with a bunch of hot and bothered tools all night.

"The bottle ain't to blame and I ain't trying to. I don't make you do the thing, it just lets you".

Let's put the blame where it lies. People who get drunk and become assholes are probably assholes to begin with.

Probably. Not always. And I'm not even assigning blame, just stating the facts of the matter. There's really not much you can do with people who act out when they're drunk. Put out the occasional plea to the community and hope for the best.

I suppose. I'm just worried that before long it will be unacceptable to get drunk at DBT shows. I love to get drunk at DBT shows, and I'm not sorry for that. However, I don't like to get so drunk I don't remember the show, and can't handle myself. I go to the show, drink beer, sing a long, and have a blast and I don't see anything wrong with it. Being an asshole is always unacceptable, but I don't "being drunk" automatically being associated with "being an asshole" because they aren't one and the same.

I'm not saying you're saying that anyone who gets drunk at a show is an asshole, but I just don't want that to ever be the case.

[Jeremy]

Amen Iowan, if I am not driving home and I dont have to work tomorrow, I am going to get drunk at the show, but I am going to be respectful and I am going to have a good time. Goin to smoke some weed too. This thread is against dickheadry, not drunkery. 2 different things.

[Clams]

There's really not much you can do with people who act out when they're drunk.

Exactly ^^^^^

As long as they play in crowded clubs that serve liquor (and I'm in favor of both clubs and liquor), there's going to be a certain percentage who can't handle their liquor and turn into dickheads. Once that happens, manners, respect, etc go out the window. Requests to "take it easy, dude" simply don't register. People like that just can't be talked to. At that point, it becomes the club's responsibility to spot the behavior (or respond to complaints) and remove them.